Solid Approach

I have a team with :

GK : One very good (Julio Cesar), one very promising (Kapino).

Four quick descent in defense (not in dribbling) full backs.

Four tall, descent in defence (12+ posisioning, tackling, marking, strength etc.) Central Defenders.

Four descent in defence CMs/DMs with descent passing.

Four quick, dribblers and hard working wingers.

Two "trequartistas" with good passing, creativity, technique, off the ball.

Two all around (12+ pace, accelaration, finishing, strength, technique, composure, decisions) Strikers.

Can you describe me in simple or more words, what my core (because there are much more things to manage, i know) tactic should be so that i can have a solid approach? I dont want to win 6-0. I want just to be solid. I dont care if i loose sometimes or draw a lot more. Just to be solid.

By solid i mean not to conceed easily.

I ve tryied so many combinations of roles/duties/philosophy/mentality/pressing etc (including tactics made by guides here plus two counter tactics in CCC magazine plus suggestions from "Diego Simeone thread"), in FMC. I played ten games each to see what i can do.

I failed. I am not good in tactics.

Last thing i tryied which worked less bad was this.

------------DF(S)

DW(S)------T(A)----------DW(S)

--------------------------------

--------DM(S)-DM(S)

FB(D)---CD(D)-CD(D)------FB(D)

Fluid/Attacking

Shorter passing

Play out of defence

Drop Deeper (a must, because i get exposed all the time with high d line and offside trap, even with lesser teams)

Roam from positions (to increase my movement a little because of many defensive/support roles)

Hassle Opponents

Stay on feet (a must too because with hassle and stuck in i always get destroyed even with low quality opponents)

Now i know you will tell there is no balance because of roles/duties but trust me especially in dutys, when i give a defender an attack one i have many times a hole in his side, and none of my fullbacks has the quality to be a "wing back".

Any thoughts?

If you read the "Diego Simeone thread" then you must have missed a lot of that tread becuase Diego Simeone plays defensive, counter attacking football and you are trying the complete opposite with the tactic you describe. You could somehow have that tactic made in to a Dieogo simeone tactic if you switch to counter or defensive mentality and if you find another role for the Trequartista as a Treq is not doing any defensive work. Attacking Midifelder or a Shadow Striker would be a better choice if you want someone in the AMC position that applies press on the opposition.

You lack some key information here, you did not tell which team you are playing and in which league

that Julio Cesar guy is i guess the brazilian GK that can be found on a free at the beginning of the game, the one that played on loan at Granada from Benfica. If you think he is very good then i guess you don't play in the premier league or the other big leagues, maybe you play with Panathinaikos, since you mention Kapino

The info on where you play could be vital because if you are Panathinaikos then you will be considered a favorite in the league against almost every team if you are Sassuolo in Serie A then you will be the underdog against all other teams. If you are the favorite in the league playing solid defensive tactic will lead to a lot of clean sheets but i'm not sure that you will manage to win that many games because your opponents will be also very defensive.

Give info on what team you are so you could get better advice

There is certainly some disconnect between what you aspire to, and how you have set up.

When you state "I just want to be solid", my own approach to achieving that aim wouldn't see me start with an Attacking Mentality.

You can be proactive defensively using an Attacking Mentality, but that aggressive pressing style for me doesn't match the desire to "just....be solid".

As RonnySanchez says, some context would be good - what team are you?

Your Roles and Duties are also painfully symmetrical, and the DMs won't give as much cover defensively as they could if you use Support Duties.

I highly recommend reading llama3's Pairs & Combinations Thread to get a better idea of how to combine Roles:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/375632-Pairs-amp-Combinations-The-Complete-Series

Thanks for replies.

I already try some tactics based on all your guides. Didnt gave me what i wanted.

So if anyone out there having success in the game using that kind of approach please post.

Yes i am Panathinaikos.

What i have in mind is a hard to break team both in my league and European Competitions.

In my league i will be more attacking of course but not too attacking. My Wingers/Tq/St will make the difference there.

In Europe it will be my defence structure that will make the difference. (With some tactical changes maybe than the "home" tactic)

Unfortunatelly my English arent that good that i can explain with more detail.

The more i can do, is in the first post and give you some ss of how i had so much fun in last year FM.

Tactic and squad : http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/attachments/football-manager-2013-tactics-training/297544d1357387525-mr-langvatns-underdog-beast-23to1zp.png

Fixtures : http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/attachments/football-manager-2013-tactics-training/297545d1357387614-mr-langvatns-underdog-beast-ouxug6.png

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/attachments/football-manager-2013-tactics-training/297546d1357387658-mr-langvatns-underdog-beast-iqlims.png

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/attachments/football-manager-2013-tactics-training/297547d1357387682-mr-langvatns-underdog-beast-6rkhl0.png

Goal Analysis : http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/attachments/football-manager-2013-tactics-training/297550d1357387798-mr-langvatns-underdog-beast-m93jhi.png (look at the balance both in defence and attack. This was the best tactic i ever used. It was REALISTIC and not like those "cheating" 7-2 attacking tactics. This guy managed to make it purely from tactic creator. Not many changes in individual settings.)

Now as you can see and as a Moderator told me this tactic doesnt look working based on guides here and by how the ME works.

But it did. And it did exactly what it was supposed to by his creator.

4 descent defenders. The DCs both stoppers, helped their good pace/acc/agility. The full backs all around. Helping most in Defence but in attack two. Two DMs. One a little more defensive, the other the deep playmaker of the team. Their depth provide solid structure. Now the wingers the trequartista and the striker made the difference up front, having basic intstructions. I mean in attack there wasnt the tactic that helped me score BUT THEIR CLASS. THe wingers will run at defence, the trequartista will be the playmaker (i remember never ending with meny assists every year or goals, but he had BY FAR the most KEY PASSES in the team. I remember beeing excited about this:) ) and the striker will finish easily the LESS chances we will have because of cautious approach.

Now as you can see i won Champions League in my second season with this tactic. That doesnt mean i want to do the same thing. I dont even care if i dont pass through group stage. AS LONG AS i am solid. Then with better players i will look for better results in Europe.

This is what i can tell. Trust me i have tried so much things. In my FM/tactics folder there should be over 100 tactics.

Results some other guy had with this tactic.

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/attachments/football-manager-2013-tactics-training/298968d1357755675-mr-langvatns-underdog-beast-npower-league-2_-vista-general-fases.png

THIS is what i want Is it possible?

So, the crux of the issue is that you like to download tactics and none of the "over 100" tactics you have tried this year are bringing you the success you crave?

FM is increasingly a game where you need to pay more attention to the ebb and flow of each game, and in my opinion that is absolutely how a football management simulation should be.

No downloaded (or self created) tactic will just hand you results on a plate any more. They can give you a good foundation and give you a degree of success, but it cannot paper over the fact that you too have to interact with the matches in order to maximise the effectiveness of ANY tactic.

I get the impression that you want to just click "Play Match, sit back and fold your arms, and watch the wins roll in.

This isn't really a viable way of playing any more, so I think you need to start learning how to read matches, and how to react to the action you see.

Simply setting up a tactic now is only the start of the match day journey, and it guarantees nothing.

Well.. from the fixture list you provided you do look pretty solid because you did not concede that many goals but perhaps when you say "solid" you mean you want to play another style? You want to play like Atletico Madrid, Chealsea, Lille or Everton? There are a number of teams in europe playing kind of "negative" football and are quite good in doing that.

I dont think that a negative tactic will give you results against the smaller teams in the greek league, there is too big differance in reputation between the three bigger teams in greece and the rest of the teams. Every time Panathanaikos, Olympiacos and Paok play the smaller teams they will defend and play on the counter.

I think that a Control, possesion based tactic is the best choice for the big teams in Greece, if you are too attacking, the small teams will hit you on the counter, if you are too coutious you will not suceed in pentrating them on regular bases.

I truly think that you can't play negative football with Panathanaikos and be sucessfull against the opposition that you have in greece because of the reputation that you have. You will simply have too many draws. but that is just my opinion based on playing on other similar leagues where you have two or three big teams and the rest are very small i have not played the greek league, at least not on FM14.

So, the crux of the issue is that you like to download tactics and none of the "over 100" tactics you have tried this year are bringing you the success you crave?

FM is increasingly a game where you need to pay more attention to the ebb and flow of each game, and in my opinion that is absolutely how a football management simulation should be.

No downloaded (or self created) tactic will just hand you results on a plate any more. They can give you a good foundation and give you a degree of success, but it cannot paper over the fact that you too have to interact with the matches in order to maximise the effectiveness of ANY tactic.

I get the impression that you want to just click "Play Match, sit back and fold your arms, and watch the wins roll in.

This isn't really a viable way of playing any more, so I think you need to start learning how to read matches, and how to react to the action you see.

Simply setting up a tactic now is only the start of the match day journey, and it guarantees nothing.

You cannot tweak tactics in FM anymore because of the harshness of the familiarity in order to get the best out of what you suggest.

FM encourages one thing, yet employs a contradiction. Work needs to be done from SI in this area.

One or two tweaks should not make a tactic go from "Fluid" to "competent" or even worse "akward".

You cannot tweak tactics in FM anymore because of the harshness of the familiarity in order to get the best out of what you suggest.

FM encourages one thing, yet employs a contradiction. Work needs to be done from SI in this area.

One or two tweaks should not make a tactic go from "Fluid" to "competent" or even worse "akward".

Changes in game don't make you lose familiarity, well not a noticeable penalisation anyway or the whole shout system would be redundant. Not sure why people think changes during a game are penalised when there not.

You cannot tweak tactics in FM anymore because of the harshness of the familiarity in order to get the best out of what you suggest.

FM encourages one thing, yet employs a contradiction. Work needs to be done from SI in this area.

One or two tweaks should not make a tactic go from "Fluid" to "competent" or even worse "akward".

Trust me here - I hate the way that FM handles the concept of Tactical Familiarity.

However, in game adjustments to your line, width, tempo, passing focus, or your Roles and Duties, can still be made effectively in spite of the minimal impact to Familiarity.

Once your basic tactic is fully familiar, making tweaks in game needn't be a major issue, and the impacts on familiarity can be reduced further if you have three variants of the same tactic loaded.

Personally, I just play FMC and avoid the whole rigmarole of Familiarity.

EDIT - There's an echo in here, and Cleon beat me to an answer. As usual

Trust me here - I hate the way that FM handles the concept of Tactical Familiarity.

However, in game adjustments to your line, width, tempo, passing focus, or your Roles and Duties, can still be made effectively in spite of the minimal impact to Familiarity.

Once your basic tactic is fully familiar, making tweaks in game needn't be a major issue, and the impacts on familiarity can be reduced further if you have three variants of the same tactic loaded.

Personally, I just play FMC and avoid the whole rigmarole of Familiarity.

EDIT - There's an echo in here, and Cleon beat me to an answer. As usual

I agree with you. The whole concept makes FMC an absolute no brainer for somebody like myself and clearly you too who likes to change tactic dependant on opposition/scenario. Although I take your point about In game adjustments, it still isn't as "free" as should be in my opinion.

So, the crux of the issue is that you like to download tactics and none of the "over 100" tactics you have tried this year are bringing you the success you crave?

FM is increasingly a game where you need to pay more attention to the ebb and flow of each game, and in my opinion that is absolutely how a football management simulation should be.

No downloaded (or self created) tactic will just hand you results on a plate any more. They can give you a good foundation and give you a degree of success, but it cannot paper over the fact that you too have to interact with the matches in order to maximise the effectiveness of ANY tactic.

I get the impression that you want to just click "Play Match, sit back and fold your arms, and watch the wins roll in.

This isn't really a viable way of playing any more, so I think you need to start learning how to read matches, and how to react to the action you see.

Simply setting up a tactic now is only the start of the match day journey, and it guarantees nothing.

No i dont want a super tactic i already told that.

I want some advice of a CORE shape (roles, formation etc) based on (1) the style of play i like and (2) the kind of players i have.

And i want some "proof" if anyone can provide that this (solidness) COULD work in this ME version so that i dont loose my precious time anymore trying to do something its impossible. So i have to stop playing and wait for next patch and a good tactician to provide something MANY people seek here (you have even a deticated subforum for that, so i dont understand the "results on a plate" phrase). A good tactic. A good approach in generall. Or a detailed way to play the game in certain styles everyone preffers (possesion, attacking, defensive, barcelona, atletico etc).

Of course you can get a solid tactic on here. If you want help how about providing us some info on the players you have so that we can see if it fits in to the style you want to play.

Of course you can get a solid tactic on here. If you want help how about providing us some info on the players you have so that we can see if it fits in to the style you want to play.

Thank you.

GK : One very good (Julio Cesar), one very promising (Kapino).

Four quick descent in defense (not in dribbling) full backs.

Four tall, descent in defence (12+ posisioning, tackling, marking, strength etc.) Central Defenders.

Four descent in defence CMs/DMs with descent passing.

Four quick, dribblers and hard working wingers.

Two "trequartistas" with good passing, creativity, technique, off the ball.

Two all around (12+ pace, accelaration, finishing, strength, technique, composure, decisions) Strikers.

By descent mean 12-13+ key attributes/role

If you want more details i will happily upload for you.

Changes in game don't make you lose familiarity, well not a noticeable penalisation anyway or the whole shout system would be redundant. Not sure why people think changes during a game are penalised when there not.

But they do – or does only the overall matter and the drop of half the familiarity bar has no noticeable effect? A change from accomplished to awkward? Because that is what happens if you e.g. turn off an active passing shout/implement another one.

So lets go

I will write more details about my first eleven, the duties they suit them and try combine them in a balance shape.

My default shape will either be a 4-2DM-2MRL-1-1, or a 4-2DM-3-1 and not a 4-1-2-2-1 because i dont like my TQ who cant defend good beeing so deep (question(1) : am i wrong at this?)

Goalkeeper.

Defender Right

Roles he is suited : FB/WB(S/D)

Defender Left

Roles he is suited : He can suit every role with two base cons : Marking and Positioning.

So maybe here i can put him : question (2) what do you think?

Roles he is suited : FB(D)

Defender Center Right

Roles he is suited : LD(D), LD(X), CD(D), CD(X)

Defender Center Left

Roles he is suited : LD(D), LD(X), CD(X)

Right Defensive Midfielder/Right Central Midfielder

Roles he is suited : BWM(D), BWM(S), DM(D), DM(S)

Notes : He has bad strength for every position.

Left Defensive Midfielder/Left Central Midfielder

Roles hi is suited : DM(D),DM(S),A(D),BWM(D),BWM(S)

Notes : He fits good all those roles with all his atts >12

Right Midfielder/Right Winger

Roles he is suited : W(A),W(S)

Left Midfielder/Left Winger

Roles he is suited : WM(S),WM(A),WM(D),W(S),W(A)

Attacking Midfielder Center

Roles he is suited : He actually fits all the roles descently. He fits perfectly as a AP(S) or (A)

Striker

Roles he is suited : TM(A) his best, CM(A), CM(S), F9, DF with compromizations

So based on the guide topics i came to this.

GK : GK(D)

DR : FB(S)

DCR : LD(X)

DCL : LD(D)

DL : FB(A)

DMCR : BWM(S)

DMCL : A(D)

MR : W(A)

ML : W(S)

AMC : AP(A)

ST : TM(S)

question(3) : what are the pros and cons of having MRLs with those duities/roles than AMRLs with the same duties?

Theoriticaly i prefer the first (MRLs) as i think it helps more beeing solid in defence.

question (4) : my striker fits better as a TM(A). What to do? Change him and change my AM to S or keep it that way?

Those are the ideal duities/roles based on :

1. My players

2. The Guides topic

3. The fact that my Left A will be a cover for my Attacking Left Full Back

4. The Right DC will press more as a stopper and will not mess with above DM who also press

League Comparison Stats. (18 teams)

All Positions :

Decisions : 8th best team

First Touch : 11th

Passing : 4th

Strength : 18th

Work Rate : 1st

Teamwork : 1st

Leadership : 13th

Aggression : 2nd

Defence :

Tackling : 3rd

Heading : 14th

Jumping : 16th

Marking : 12th

Positioning : 15th (11 average, best team has 13)

Strength : 18th

Pace : 3rd

Acceration : 3rd

Midfield :

Passing : 3rd

Long Shots : 17th

Creativity : 4th

Stamina : 2nd

Teamwork : 1st

Tackling : 2nd

Technique : 7th

Decisions : 7th

Attack :

Finishing : 1st

Long Shots : 10th

Heading : 1st

Jumping : 1st

Anticipation : 1st

Movement : 3rd

Pace : 11th

Acceleration : 14th

Dont know how serious i have to take those stats as they calculate all the squad and i am a "stable 11" manager taking very carefull my first 11 having low injurie proneness.

Philosophy : I have 4 specialists. So Very Rigid or Rigid? (5)

Mentality : I think Control fits my thoughs.

Passing : Short is my choise because of low dicisions and technique overall atts.

Work Ball into Box because of low long shots atts.

Drop Deeper because i am SICK of getting countered all the time against WEAKER opponents.

Stick to Positions on but Roaming on to ST and AP? (6)

What do you think of (based on my players, by what i want from my team considering how the Match Engine works) :

(7) Hassle?

(8) Stay on Feet so players dont loose easily their posiotions?

(9) Wider or Narrower?

(10) Tighter Marking?

(11) Offside Trap?

(12) Tempo?

(13)Expressivenes?

First Match :

Easy (none is easy in this game) home game.

Chose Pass it shorter for every defender and shoot less often for every midfielder and the AMC.

Team instuction :

Shorter Passing

Play out of defence

Work ball into box

Stick to positions

Drop Deeper

Stay on feet

Hasle

Higher Tempo

Be more disciplined.

Next game is an away derby.

I will not change anything unless i score.

edit : First halh i win 0-1 (4th minute, corner). Didnt change anything.

47% possesion. 5 shots, 3 on target, 0 ccc's, 1 half chance, 58% defence pass ratio (they press me, what i can do?)

They have 7 shots (which is great), 1 on target, 4 long shots, 1 ccc (so easy for opponent to create one)

edit : Second half, 55 minute :

My 5 (DC) leaves his area (stopper duty or hassle?) when he shouldnt (10(DMCR)) has the opp, opp passes long to 33, he easily looses 19 and scores.

edit : 1-1 draw. Only change, Contain mentality at 85th minute.

Lost some great chances, their goalkeeper man of the match.

I unfortunatelly have to go, will post later or tommorrow more.

Please feedback any help.

I was under the impression that Panathinaikos has a better team but this team that you showed is not that good, it would be quite hard to make a perfect record, i think that you must accept that you will lose some games. Your defence and your centre back pair is particularly poor they lack pace and acceleration and mental attributes such as decisions and anticipation and composure.

I think it is very dangerous to play "hassle opponents" when your centre backs are slow and poor at anticipation (one of them) and decisions (both of them) plus one of your central midfielders is also poor at decisions, these guys will make mistakes if you push them to press that much

When you give a central defender the role of Limited Defender their passing is automatically increased to almost maximum, they will just hoof the ball as long and as far a way as possible, if you then give them the instruction to pass shorter then this will be decreased but not as much as you want,

if you want to play a control game you can't give your central defenders the role of Limited defenders. look at the stats in the Paok game, the passing accurancy of your central defenders is below 50 %, they just lose you too many balls. Further, I dont think that you need a stopper because you have two defensive midfielders that cover that area.

Best choice for the central defenders is to have them on Central defender (defend) and for next season try to find at least one defender that is better. Especially the left central defender is really not suited for the type of game you need to play if you are Panathinaikos.

The right full back is OK on FB(s)

The left full back could be FB(a) or WB(a), my personal preference is to play FB(a) but some may advise you to play WB(a), anyway you must sometimes change his role to WB(s) or FB(s) if you see that its not going well in the match for you and maybe if you are leading 1:0 and it is 5 minutes left and the other team starts to play 4-2-4 or some other attacking formation you need to change him from attack to support.

Your central midfield pair is OK but not great, the Right Defensive Midfielder/Right Central Midfielder has bad first touch, concentration and decisions, particularly the latter two are important for a defensive midfielder, he is great with stamina and work rate and has solid technique and dribbling skills for a DMC so you might play him either as BWM(s) or DMC(s), the left central midfielder is either an Anchor or a DMC(d). I would play them as a pair of DMC(s) and DMC(d)

the right midifelder is best as W(a)

the left winger is a nice player, I would play him as DW(s)

the attacking midfielder is nice but has one problem, he is very one footed, he plays only with right foot, that is bad for a creator particularly if he plays in central midfield, his effect will be limited because he is very one footed. I think that you need to play him as AP(a) because you have too little attack roles in the team.

the striker is good you can’t play him as Target man he would have a very limited effect with a target man role, you should play him as a DLF(A)

it is very hard to say if you could make it with a rigid approach in all games, some away games against poor reputation teams will be very frustrating

but your basic approach should be

GK

FBR(s)

CD(d)

CD(d)

FBL(a) or WBL(a)

DMCR(s)

DMCL(d)

RMW(a) (roam from position)

LMDW(s)

AP(a) (roam from position + close down more)

DLF(A)

Rigid

Control (away against bigger teams you play standard

Work ball into box

This will give you a “solid approach”, you will not score a lot of goals and you will not concede a lot

For next season you need one good central defender and one better central midfielder, who can both defend and attack

You must be more flexible, read about in-game changes in this forum

Thank you so much for your detailed feedback.

I am not home right now so i wll give it a try and see how it works later.

I know about my defenders (bad heading also) but they are young and they turn to be very good.

And the truth is that i have other two with better mental (lower strength and also slow) but i use them as my favorites IRL.

Those two in my previous save in 8 years had 14-15 decisions and 18-19 (!!! was it because i used the same tactic and players for many years?) concentration.

Unfortunatelly didnt work my friend.

So i ve came up to something that somehow works (its early to judje though because this game is so unpredictable this year)

All this with a new save and new squad. Same, GK, DR, DCR, DCL, DMs, ST, but other and worst DL (but better in defence), ML (previous DL), MR, AMC.

GK : GK(D) -> Pass it Shorter, Distribute to Defenders

DR : FB(D) -> Shoot Less, Pass Short, Stay Wide, Press Less, Cross Aim Center, Cross More Often

DCR : CD(D) -> Pass Short, Ease Off tackles (for not loosing position)

DCL : CD(D) -> Same as DCR

DL : FB(D) -> Same as DR

DMCR : DM(D) -> Pass Shorter, Ease off tackles

DMCL : DM(D) -> Shoot Less Often, Pass Shorter, Close down Less, Ease off tackles

MR : W(A) -> Get further forward, Roam, Shoot less, More Direct Passes

ML : W(A) -> Same as MR

AMC : AP(S) -> Close down more, Roam, More Direct Passes, Move Into chanells

ST : TM(A) -> Move into chanells, More Direct Passes, Roam from position.

Very Fluid, Standard

Retain, Shorter, Work Ball, Play out of Def, Drill, Hassle, Lower Tempo, Play Narrower.

Training : Attacking, 40%, Def Set Pieces

Set Pieces : Very carefully chose who sits back. Good heading, jumping, marking. The same goes for attacking set pieces.

1. Home. Result : 0-0 / Shots (on target-long) : 11(1-4)03(0-0) / Wood : 1-1 (3 shots 1 wood. OK) / CCC : 0-0 / Poss : 66%

2. Away. Result 3-1 / Shots 13(4-4)-6(1-0) / Wood : 1-0 / CCC 2-1(OK) / Poss : 55%

3. Home. Result 1-0 / Shots 10(2-1)-5(0-3) / Wood : 0-0 / CCC 1-0 / Poss : 52%

4. Home. Result 1-1 (Cup second leg, 2-1 agg) / Shots 12(4-3)-5(3-2) / Wood 1-1 / CCC : 1-2 / Poss : 60%

So League 2 team, has at my home, 5 shots, two of them long, 2 ccc's and 1 woodwork. OK....................

5. Home. Result 1-1 / Shots : 14(2-6)-4(1-1) / Wood : 1-0 / CCC : 1-0 / Poss : 64%

6. Away. Result 2-0 / Shots 13(7-3)-5(0-1) / Wood : 1-0 / CCC : 2-0 / Poss : 52%

7. Away. Result 2-1 / Shots 6(2-2)-8(6-4) / Wood : 0-0 / CCC : 2-1 / Poss : 51%

8. Home. Result 1-2 / Shots 7(1-2)-10(1-5) / Wood : 0-1 / CCC 1-0 / Poss : 57%. Two goals conceed from corners.

9. Away. Result 3-0 / Shots 6(4-1)-8(1-8) / Wood : 0-0 / CCC 0-0 / Poss 62%

10. Home. Result 1-0 / Shots 13(7-2)-4(1-2) / Wood 1-0 / CCC 1-0 / Poss 67%

All goals i conceeded were from corners ecxept one it was from long ball and defender mistake.

11. Away derby with much much better squad than mine :

Result 1-1 / Shots 6(3-2)-8(4-2) / Wood : 0-0 / CCC 1-2 / Poss 40%

11 games, 6 won, 4 draw, 1 loose. 15 For, 6 ag. (most of them corners)

I've tried to play with so many teams in so many different ways on this version never really getting into a game. I always have a game with Panathinaikos and have been one of my favourite clubs since CM01/02. I'm currently in my first season with Panathinaikos and find myself top of the league, 11 points clear of Olympiakos who have been struggling against the defensive, counter attacking football of the smaller Greek clubs. They are however still the only team that has beaten me (2 goals from corners and a bad day at the office for my strikers cost me)

Anyway I started the game with the goal of going one better than Ferenc Puskas' team of 1970/71 that lost out in the European Cup final to Ajax.

The tactical base of that team was a 4-3-3 formation as below (from wikipedia):

So through my tests so far i've found that the counter and very rigid strategy is the most consistent in having the balance between attack and defense. Certainly when it comes starting off with a new team and tactical familiarity being on low. Seems to be easier to pick up than high press attacking formations. It also significantly reduces the amount of goals from those pesky lofted through balls.

So how i set up (I would screenshot but i'm at work and don't have a screen shot of my tactics to hand:

GK - Goalkeeper - Defend - Kapino

D R - Complete Wingback - Attack - Marinakis

D C - Central Defender - Defend - Trianta

D C - Central Defender - Defend - Kryigakos

D L - Complete Wingback - Attack - Pranjic

DM C - Regista - Support - Mendes da Silva

M C - Advanced playmaker - Attacked - Abeid

M C - Ball Winning Midfielder - Defend - Lagos

AM R - Inside Forward - Attack - Bajrami

AM L - Inside Forward - Attack - Ntinas

S C - Complete Forward - Support - Berg

Now my team instructions are as follows:

Shorting Passing

Retain Posession

Pass into Space

Play out of defense

Exploit the middle

Play Wider

Stick to Positions

Hassle Opponents

Get Stuck in

Tight marking

More Disciplined

I tend to turn on and off Drop Deeper and Higher tempo dependent on how i feel the game is going. If the opposition is sitting deep i drop deeper and it tends to pull the centre backs out and create space for the inside forwards.

Player Instructions:

Every player has tighter marking selected and close down more where possible.

The two fullbacks have - Stay wider, close down more.

The two inside forwards - Stay Narrower

The S C - Move into the channels

The Advanced playmaker - roam from position.

It seems to work consistently across the range of teams in the Greek Superleague though going into the second part of the season i'm starting to find teams are now sussed to it so i just keep the same shape but surprise them by switching between counter, standard or attacking throughout the game.

As much as i hate to say it as well, get your set pieces right because they seem to win or lose key games. Pranjic can deliver a good corner and althought Trinata's heading stats aren't great he does seem to do alright in the penalty box for me and him and Kyriagkos have weighed in with around 8 goals between them.

Top scorer is Berg with 10 followed Bjarami 8 and Ntinas 6 so still getting a good return from my front 3. They also produce a lot of assists between them.

Anyway hope my experience can help you find a happy medium for your Panathinaikos side.

(Oh i would sell Zeca, i got 2.5 million up front from Genk for him which allowed me to reinvest in the side in January)

So happy to see your post.

Actyally same thing happened again. I was happy with my tactic and it was giving me exactly what i want.

Until, it became 100% fluid..........

Then is kept its solidness but lost those few good chances or set pieces that gave me the goals. I suddenly start finishing games with 2 or 3 shots. It feels like familiarity doesnt show you your team familiarity of the tactics BUT the OPPONENTS knowledge of your tactics. So frustrating. Now i know, they found out what i do and i must change tactics bla bla bla, the thing is that every little change i will make, i will loose my solidness. So here we go from scratch.

In the current save i actually sold every single foreign player exept Zeca. Bought Greeks (my first eleven, Kapino, Marinakis, Avlonitis, Trianta, Grillo (a quick Argentian "stopper" left back) Lagos, Zeca, Klonaridis (Katidis in January), Stafylidis, Ntinas (Paredes), Vellios (Adryan)), kept the budjet very low and just loaned in January window Leandro Paredes and bought Adryan. That was my plan anyway. To build a solid structure of people who can communicate good, and if i have good players upfront i win games, if not i struggle. I struggled until now as my results show but theoretically having Paredes as AMC and Adryan as ST (or the opposite and with the suited roles) would helped me. And there came the familiarity "thing" and frustration. Now i cant create chances even with my old duo (Vellios and Ntinas) who worked like a charm those first 3 months.

Anyway, i love counter tactics, i will definetely try your approach and post what happens as i cant let this f* game off.

Yes i know about setpieces. I saw difference when choosing the right players to stay back.

Mendes is the ultimate Regista for our side. Problem is he is injurie prone (he isnt that prone IRL) and then you dont have the proper backup for the role.

I dont know if you are a Greek person. If yes an another Panathinaikos team is what i have in mind and love to simulate.

Giannis Kyrastas and Sergio Markarian team, 2001 (until 2003).

It was something like that.

GKD Nikopolidis

FBS Seitaridis

DCX Kyrgiakos

DCC Henriksen

FBD Fyssas

DMC Basinas

DMCR (DLP) Paulo Sousa

MR Michaelsen

ML Karagounis (Kolkka)

AMC (SS?) Vlaovic

ST (TM?) Konstantinou (Olisadebe)

Slow Possesion game and so tough to score against.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E2%80%9302_Panathinaikos_F.C._season

Haha no i'm not Greek, i'm English but have had a bit of an obsession with Panathinaikos since the CM01/02. Also remember watching them when i was a kid playing in the Champions League with Warzycha up front (what a player he was).

I think my best game yet was on FM2011 where i won the Europa League in my 4th season, beating Arsenal on penalties in the final (All the more sweeter as I'm a Tottenham fan in real life). So i have a bit of a soft spot for Nioplias' championship winning team in 2009 and primarily the likes of Ninis and Leto.

Tactically on FM i like to try and play my games by trying to replicate the approach of great teams past and present but in different places. My main influence in recent time has been Jorge Sampaoli's U de Chile side of 2011 but having had a lot of success replicating that style of FM2013 i've struggled on this version. Hence the move to look at a different historical approach but maybe long term move to more of a Sampaoli style when i have the right (greek or argentine) players.

I'll definitely have a watch of that video later, was watching the game against Juventus from that year the other night on youtube where they won 3-1. If you've got any other greek panathinaikos youtube links worth a watch send them through as always like to study different styles of play.

In terms of tactics i've also got a high press overload tactic in my 3 that is almost fully competent so that my players are adept in playing both styles. The seems to help when more recently i've had to switch to attacking when falling behind or just struggling to play the way i know the team can.

To try and curb some of the problems i'm starting to see creep in i've sent a few players that haven't really cut the mustard out on loan (Ajugan and Klonaridis) and brought in the pace and skill of Daniel Villalva from River Plate(He is my favourite all time FM player and key to my Europa League winning side back on FM 2011). He'll be the perfect inside forward for my counter formation and hopefully can finish a few more chances than Ntinas.

My advice would be stick to your guns and play the way you want to play and almost ignore the tactical familiarity (My team played much better when it was half than when it was full). Play with a very rigid strategy as well as if your like me you'll like to be very specific in how you want your teams to play. You've got a lot of young players in there that'll want to just try and win the game themselves and impress individually rather than play as a team whereas you want them doing simple things but doing them well. My plan is to gradually move from very rigid to giving my players more freedom but at the moment i don't trust most of them. The ones i do i give them a the option to rome from position etc.

Match against Juventus was previous year. It was a group with Juventus Hamburg and Manchester United. That year exept that win-qualification against Juventus we had an another exelent match agains United. you can see highlights here.

Difference is that that year we had another coach (Anastasiadis) who had an attacking mentality but he was (is) a master in psychology. He helped Paok eliminate Arsenal (... ) previous years, he helped us too.

Next year a great coach (Giannis Kyrastas, unfortunatelly passed away in 2005) build the ultimate solid team. Sergio Markarian continue after January with the same approach. A team so hard to break. This is the year presented in the video in previous post. And those are the results. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E2%80%9302_Panathinaikos_F.C._season

Beat Arsenal (), Barcelona, Schalke both home and away. Eliminated by Barcelona in a cracking match in Camp Nou.

That team also had success for a third year in a row, beating Mourinhos great Porto in quarter finals of UEFA cup, away 0-1.

As for 2009, we are so sad we missed Leto, Ninis, Cisse and Gilberto. It was the team of our dreams. Plus the coach. It wasnt Nioplias job it was Henk Ten Cate (Chelsea assistand in their first Champions League final) who builded a great team in Dutch philosophy. Nioplias continue his great job. Unfortunatelly we had some crazy stuff happening in our management and the dream is gone.........

A friend of mine he is also Panathinaikos and he LOVES Tottenham too.

So nice to read your post.

Ahh it's nice to hear all these things from a Panathinaikos fan as i really struggle to find good English language info on Pana. I read bits about how bad things are getting at the moment but i'm sure the team will bounce back. They just need to find a way of keeping hold of their best youngsters. I was really impressed with how they played against Spurs last season in the Europa league, especially Trianta. It's good to see them performing better in the league this season, i just think the club as a whole needs a bit of stability then maybe attract a wealthy owner similar to PAOK and Olympiakos.

Also I actually live in Newcastle so Charis Mavrias just lives down the road from me in Sunderland and i was a bit disappointed he didn't stay at Panathinaikos longer. He is being wasted down there and hopefully he'll get a loan move soon.

Actually getting back to FM i intend to get through a number of games in the next few days so hopefully be able to give you some ideas of how to adapt to my oppositions change in tactics.

Just out of interest what formations do the other teams tend to use against you? The majority of teams i play against setup as 4-2-3-1 with 2 M C and AM C or the odd team plays the same formation as you. Be interested to see if the teams adapt their shape toward your tactic or just shouts and player roles.

Hopefully between the two of us we can at least bring back some glory to Pana.

Yes most of them use 4-2-3-1. But i ve seen a 4-2DM-2-2, 4-1-2-2-1 and 4-2DM-3-1.

Actually this year we are doing exactly what you are saying. We are trying to stabilize our finances so that we either can attract a wealthy owner or just live with our own income. The problem here in Greece is that the Champion is the only team that plays in the Champions league and takes the HUGE money bonuses so he has a great advantage. There are some other things to talk about olympiakos but its not the place and the time to talk about.

We have a great young coach, Giannis Anastasiou who played for 10 years in Holland and worked alongside Henk Ten Cate and Luis Van Gall who made a group of youngsters plus 4-5 good foreigners (Berg, Pranjic, Mendes, Zeca, Figueroa (we sold him and signed Mladen Petric!!!) play beatifull possesion football. We are incosistent because of low age average but we are happy for the team at least in this difficult period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6JdLB7e7VY

Anything you want ask me here or in pm i will be happy to answer you.

I will also start a new save and post results too

So i managed to finally finish a season on FM 2014 and managed to do the double. The main reason for this was my consistency against the small teams in the league and whereas PAOK and Olympiakos often lost points against lesser teams.

I hit a rocky patch where we scraped results over the winter period and was very frustrating as i'd say for about 10 matches in a row i shouted at my players at half time for playing crap. Thankfully though my defense stayed rock solid throughout and more often than not my problems stemmed from the attacking third and the inability to finish chances. I had a lot of 1-0 victories where the goal was scored from a corner or penalty.

That being said come spring time and suddenly my team could finish again and we cantered to win the league and cup.

Now a few things i need to work on for next season:

- A winter tactic - On poor pitches in the middle of winter i really struggled to put teams to bed and although i looked comfortable at the back i just couldn't finish to save my life. I tinkered with pretty much every little tweak going but to no real consistent success. What I think I need is to develop a more direct fluid attacking tactic that will look to put a few early goals past the opposition before switching back to keeping the ball and countering.

- Beat the big clubs in Greece - For a season where i finished 15 points clear of Olympiakos i failed to beat either them or PAOK. 2 draws with PAOK and 2 very frustrating losses against Olympiakos leave me with something to think about for next season. Olympiakos have just hired Guus Hiddink having missed out on Champions League football so are unlikely to be as poor against the bottom half of the table next season. Corners and silly mistakes are the big problem against Olympiakos and in both games their two goals came from a corner and a defensive mistakes. We on the other hand couldn't finish to save our lives and it cost us again. - I wonder whether the youth of my squad is not being led enough by my experienced players which in term affects the composure against tough teams which is certainly a worry for Champions League football next season.

I've got to say though the positives definitely out weigh the negatives, i'm just a bit of a perfectionist and anticipating the tougher test i'll have next season when i need to balance 3 competitions over that troublesome winter period.

Tonight's challenge is to get a similar tactic working for the Greek national team and to try and make some waves in the World Cup. That'll be one to talk tomorrow.

How you getting along with your new game? Have you found the right tactical balance for the players at your disposal?

Actually i ve spend so much time beeing frustrated with my tactical decisions that lead me to use other people tactics ones more.

I actually enjoying the game again using this tactic : http://oi58.tinypic.com/9gkade.jpg

Found it in Fm base. And if you read creator's description of the tactic you will once more understand how close SI is to have a great Match Engine combined with the indisputable depth of the game in all other areas. This tactic does exactly what it is supposed too, if you have correct players.

I also used Mr Roslers Silk and Steel. Won two Championships and one cup and had a great Champions League spell in second year. Promoted first from group and knocked out by United 4-3 agg.

Now i am in my third year, almost spend nothing but i have good players, Greeks and some good latin Foreigners i signed up for free those two years.

I only spend 3.3 Million for this fantastic guy so this is going to be a very interesting year

http://oi59.tinypic.com/358yttv.jpg

PS. Try not to lose Neumann. He becomes good. Marinakis, Trianta, Lagos, Kapino are also very good.

Hiddink became osfp manager in my save too

I know that the game using YOUR tactics is a completely different and much more enjoyable game, but frustration overcame this.

Sounds like things are coming together. I've just started my second season. Signed Ninis, Karagounis, Guillermo Burdisso and Duvan Zapata on loan.

I actually had a look at Vadala bur went for Moran Correa from River instead.

I've been playing around with the best way to play Ninis whilst retaining my solid defence.

Got a big session planned tomorrow morning so will take some analysis next week when I'm back at work.

Great signings, especially the Colombian BEAST !!!

Very curious to see your Champions League statistics.

Great signings, especially the Colombian BEAST !!!

Very curious to see your Champions League statistics.

Well I'm in February of my second season now and tbh Champions League was a bit of a disappointment. I was very unlucky throughout having been drawn against Porto, Milan and Liverpool in the group stage. As a result of injuries before the Liverpool match i had to switch to my Champions League defensive tactic:

My results ended up being as follows:

Panathinaikos 0 - 0 Liverpool

AC Milan 3 - 3 Panathinaikos (I was 3-0 down at half time after 2 horrendous defensive mistakes)

Panathinaikos 0 - 1 Porto (Dodgy penalty and an even more questionable goal chalked off for offside.)

Porto 2 - 1 Panathinaikos (Another dodgy offside decision and conceded 2 from corners)

Liverpool 1 - 1 Panathinaikos (Was leading right until the end when Candreva scored a ridiculous free kick, Kapino dived under the ball causing a tirade of swear words at my laptop)

Panathinaikos 1 - 1 Milan (Threw away the lead in this one as well but in fairness Milan were the better side.)

Disappointing to not even get Europa league but it means i can concentrate solely on the League now especially as Olympiakos just don't want to budge.

Current formation in the league is as follows:

I've made a few adjustments since that screenshot by switching the wingbacks to wingback support rather than complete wingbacks. I was struggling to get decent balls into the box so i've found dropping them to support has given me a bit more space to work in and Pranjic leads the assists charts with 17 so far this season.

Top goalscorer so far this season is Guillermo Burdisso with 10, followed by Zapata (9), Bosnjak (7), Villalva (7), Ntinas (6), Karagounis (5).

Things still to fix

I've still not managed to beat Olympiakos as i drew 1-1 with them away from home. Fingers crossed i can finally make it count when i play them at home. I did finally beat PAOK but only 2-1 at home and the away trip will certainly be trickier.

The tactic seems to work really well against the majority of the league but doesn't against my main rivals. At the moment i'm not sure how much of it is my squad not being good at handling the pressures of big matches or how much of it is counter tactics from the opposition. It is definitely a bit of both however I am still creating similar amount of chances against the big teams it is just my finishing and quality of passing that is letting me down.

Any ideas of how to adjust the above tactic to counter teams of a similar standard would be greatly appreciated. I just want to smash Olympiakos at home and i'll be a happy boy, that'd mean more than winning the league.

Oh on a side note i've signed this guy to replace Zapata when he goes back to Napoli at the end of the season...lets hope he lives up to his potential:

How are you getting along in your third season? Settled on a tactic now?

Actually deleted all (over 10) different saves i had seeking for one long term and started over.

Sold most of my players (kept only 3 gollies, Marinakis, Koutroubis, Trianta, Zeca, Lagos, Ntinas. Bought Balboa as i was very lucky his random attributes to be perfect for F9 or TMs position. Good finishing, technique, passing, dribbling, first touch, heading, balance, jumping and teamwork of 18!!!). Bought some descent greeks and some burgain Latin Americans (Emanuel Insua, Mateus, Amorim, Fabinho (Santa Cruz, my best sign for just 100K), Zezinho and a quick CD. Renie.

I also took good care of my U19. Kept a descent first eleven. Staikos, Neumann, Donis, Risvanis, Choucoumis turns to be descent. Took also good care of their training. Sold the dead wood so i dont spend trash money.

Anyway i came up to something i thing is good. Just had in my news this : Solid defence foundation for memorable Panathinaikos victory. A study defence and a battling midfield were the foundations bla bla bla. JUST LOVE IT WHEN THIS HAPPENS.

This is the basic "attacking" tactic.

And this is the tactic i use WHEN I SCORE 1 GOAL.

The only changes in personal instructions are :

GK : Distribute to defence - Pass shorter

ML : Roam, Mark tighter

MCR : Roam

MR : Mark tighter

ST : Roam, Move into chanels.

I am still experimenting with DCs. Cover - Cover, Defend - Defend, Stopper - Cover. I feel Cover cover is better considering the generall approach.

So far in 8 matches, 6 wins, 2 draws, 19 scored, 4 conceed (3 from set pieces).

I spended so much time to this, hope i ve found something that will allow me to concentrate to things i love in FM.

PPMs, youth development and to win a European Cup.

PS. You were SO UNLUCKY to CL. You were solid though so you did good !!

Great to see that you've found a formation that is working for you, counter definitely works very well for Panathinaikos as i think it suits the slow defense but takes advantage of the pace available on the flanks. Hopefully you'll stick with this one and bring some European glory back to Athens.

I'm just in the process of getting pre-season before embarking on my 3rd season. I still have my trusty 4-3-3 counter formation working nicely and have recently brought back Mavrias to the club so am well stocked with pace on the flanks. Hope this season will see me at least get the third place in the group and mount a challenge on the Europa League. Little steps.

Starting to bleed in the youngsters a bit this season with Anastopolous (Had 2 amazing seasons for Anorthosi on loan and looks a real long term replacement for Mendes Da Silva), Staikos, Donis, Stamatkis, Giannitsanis and Alverto Roussos(on loan from Juventus).

Chouchoumis is likely to rotate with Taglificaio who i've signed on a free from Banfield dependent on whether i need a more defensive/attacking minded wingback. Pranjic is still around and got 25 assists last season from left back but will make sure i'm rotating between all 3.

I'm really trying to blend Youth and experience in the side now and the likes of Karagounis, Krygiakos, Vyntra, Katsouranis, Pranjic and Mendes da Silva all still have a part to play.

Thoroughly enjoying this game now and will try and get some screenshots and a bit more detail on some of my alternative tactics that i'm developing.

Unfortunatelly i am so tired again my friend. Thank you so much for your help but i am tired. I dont know maybe i will setup again FM 13 to have some fun again and cover my addiction to the game. I mean i play a title game with Olympiakos, i am winning 0-2 in first half, i tell them not to get complacent, 8-9 of them reacts good, and i receive THREE GOALS from corners. My Match preparation? Defensive Set Pieces. And all my tall bodies back. Its not worth it, really.

Forgot to say, 2 cccs for me, NONE for them.

Next match, again 2 CCCs for me NONE for opponent.

I cant even believe i ve reached so far. Tones of these kind of screens.

Next match.

I control the match giving the opponent NO REAL CHANCE, and suddenly, a long ball from a guy that has passing and technique 11 and creativity and crossing 10, my CD with 13 positioning, 14 anticipation, 13 concentration, 12 decisions, 12 composure, 14 jumping, 14 heading has a very EASY HEAD, he .........loses it and just like that my opp creates an easy CCC that my golie saved and save me from another 1-1.

Next match, half time.

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2cegmj6.jpg

full time

http://oi62.tinypic.com/16lcmcp.jpg

Sounds like a bad night at the office all round there and i do share your pain. I had a mixed bag game night last night with a lot of stupid defensive errors and goals conceded by corners and for some reason every game now Guillermo Burdisso is always very nervous and Trianta keeps making mistakes which are so unlike him. The only thing I've changed is to promote Trianta to vice captain...

Luckily though i'm still scoring at the other end so i've managed to win my first game 3 games against Ast Tripolis (H 3-0 versus the dreaded Brazilian Box formation), Panionos (H 4-2, was 2-0 down thanks to silly goals) and Iraklis(H 2-0 Kapino saved a penalty at 0-0).

Not happy with how the team is playing though (I'm a perfectionist in FM ), all a bit lethargic even though they were great in Pre-season, draws away at PSG, Bayern etc. I fear complacency is the issue but how to stop i'm still trying to work out after 2 seasons.

The final straw was playing Albania with Greece and drawing 1-1 having seen Albania have 72% possession...so god knows what will happen if any Greek teams start deploying the same formation. Turned it off and went to bed.

So how i would approach your current predicament:

Preparation

Play your next match ready to shout and scream at the screen, beer and maybe some sort of bar snack on standby. (this essential to get through any FM frustration, years of experience )

Make sure the anyone that may frown at you or ask why you are shouting at little men on a computer screen are not in the house. Set the match highlights to Full match and get yourself comfy.

I firstly would change from balanced to very rigid fluidity. I'm of the belief that having a young side you need to be controlling everything they are doing and i think the more freedom they are given the more frustrated you will get with them. I would also select the more disciplined shout and stick to positions. I'm the manager and i want them doing what i tell them to do.

Tell myself that there is the distinct possibility that you are going to concede a goal or 2 from a corner so you are going to need to score 3 or keep the ball long enough to reduce the number of corners they get and thus the chances of conceding from one. Easy right? hahaha no chance.

I know if i'm playing a crap team that i'm going to create lots of chances and that the likelihood is that i'm going to miss a lot of them. Make sure that i make my corners count and that I've got the right corner taker and aim to take advantage of the oppositions' weaknesses in defense. (My team were the leading goalscorers from corners last season and as frustrating as they are to concede they can work just as well at the other end grinding out that frustrating result.)

I've also found that the majority of Greek teams on FM playing negatively because of the gulf between the big 3/4 and the rest of the pack. Play deeper and keep the ball, let them work to get it back. They can't get a corner or loft the ball over the top if they don't have the ball. This would probably give you the same solid approach you were seeing using two D - Cover.

I would also highly recommend using a regista or deep lying playmaker as often in the defensive opposition tactics they are more worried about your attacking players so the DM can just cruise around keeping the ball moving.

I like to think as well that having the ball gives your players confidence so that when the opportunity in front of goal should arrive they are more likely to take it.

The Match

Watch the first 10 minutes of the match and make mental notes or on a pad of paper of what is going well and what is not so well. I like to watch individual players to see how they are doing or if they are really quiet then i make a note that something probably needs to be changed to get them into the game more.

After 10 minutes you should have a good idea of how the opposition is setup. If i'm happy with how things are going as i expected, i.e. we've got loads of possession and they are sitting deep then i'll leave it as it is. If the opposition however has decided to be daring and push higher up i'd maybe up the tempo a little bit to avoid any chance of getting caught in possession.

I then repeat the process every 10 minutes and make a note of any adjustments I've made and why. (Helps me develop what i want my eventual detailed strategy to be.)

Now i rarely change the formation through the match but am starting to switch between a 4-2-3-1 and my 4-3-3 depending on how things are going. For me if things aren't going right it's all about mixing it up but only ever so slightly. I only really adjust tempo and defensive line throughout the match, everything else is kept the same.

Post Match

Hopefully I've won but either way i'll always have a look at the analysis and compare it against a match that was both a very similar result or the complete opposite. It's good to compare the average position of both teams and start to build a picture of what works and why. Then the next time you play them you'll have a better idea of what line/tempo you want to play.

I think my overall philosophy in life is that you can only do something about something you can control. There is not enough control over defending corners in FM currently, yes marking the 6 yard box, having tall defenders and defending set pieces match training helps but as you know you still concede them. But you can't really control them then it is not an error worth focusing on or even worrying about.

Concentrate on the areas you can influence: Stopping the through ball over the top (play deep or shut down the main creator), Creating space (you want to pass in to space then you need your other players creating that space, the CF is a good start), Be solid (play as a team unit, everyone be where they are supposed to be, keep the ball.), Player development (the right coaches and tutors, mixing the training schedules around, assigning the right individual training to suit your requirements etc.)

Just keep the faith and enjoy the things you can control and just swear and curse at the things you can't. Then take a sip of beer and get back to trying to beat those bar stewards.

Thank you so much for your help mate i really mean it !!!

I will keep trying offcourse....

PS. Friendly game and it prepares me of what is coming.........

No worries took me best part of 2 months to actually finish a season and that was with my current Pana side so a long term game can definitely be done.

Yeah probably not the most promising defensively against Larisa but you did still score enough to make it irrelevant. I'd maybe go back and look at the Larisa goals and take some screenshots of the build up play to the goals and try and work out how it happened. Post them up on here as it'd be good to have a look.

I still have huge defending problems. No matter what i do opponents create CCCs for fun.

What i have in mind is a deep 4231 that will counter fast but also keep the possesion if the team isnt ready to counter.

What i have now in mind and when i have time want to try is something like this.

-----------TMs

Wa--------APa---------DWs

-----------------------------

--------DMd----DLPs

FBs------C------S-------FBa

based on guides here or :

-------------TMs

DWs---------APa----------DWs

-------------------------------

---------DMs-----DMs---------

FBd-------C-------C-------FBd

based on my (probably wrong) understanding of roles/duties(same roles duties so the team is compact)

Fluid / Standard (not too attack not too defensive)

direct, slower (to keep possesion?), get stuck in (i like what i see)

but what about pressing, tight marking etc.

No matter what i do they so easily create chances against me. Team or individual moves.

I still have huge defending problems. No matter what i do opponents create CCCs for fun.

What i have in mind is a deep 4231 that will counter fast but also keep the possesion if the team isnt ready to counter.

What i have now in mind and when i have time want to try is something like this.

-----------TMs

Wa--------APa---------DWs

-----------------------------

--------DMd----DLPs

FBs------C------S-------FBa

based on guides here or :

-------------TMs

DWs---------APa----------DWs

-------------------------------

---------DMs-----DMs---------

FBd-------C-------C-------FBd

based on my (probably wrong) understanding of roles/duties(same roles duties so the team is compact)

Fluid / Standard (not too attack not too defensive)

direct, slower (to keep possesion?), get stuck in (i like what i see)

but what about pressing, tight marking etc.

No matter what i do they so easily create chances against me. Team or individual moves.

Sorry been busy the last week or so which is why I didn't reply yet. Why don't you save some of the good and bad matches and send them over and I'll have a look to see if a second pair of eyes can see what is going wrong?

Have you tried doing some tests of the tactics in classic?

I just had a briliiant half time and posting before i get frustrated again and disappear

GK - GKD (Pass it Shorter, Distribute to Defenders)

DR - CWB (Pass Shorter, More Risky Passes)

DCR - CDD (Pass it Shorter)

DCL - CDD (Pass it Shorter)

DL - CWB (Pass it Shorter, More Risky Passes)

DMRC - DMD (Pass it Shorter)

DMLC - DMS (Pass it Shorter)

MR - DWS (Pass it Shorter, More Risky Passes)

ML - DWD (Pass it Shorter, More Risky Passes)

AMC - EG

ST - AF

Counter - Fluid, Shorter, Retain, Overlap, Hassle, Expressive, Much Lower Tempo.

Theorytically i want to :

1. Have a solid structure (422MRL11)

2. Keep possesion for better defending (Retain, Shorter, Much Lower)

3. When the right opportunity rise attack quickly in open space. (More Risky, Expressive, Overlap)

I am playing against PAOK. They have a much stronger squad than me (i mutual terminate Pranjic, Mendes, etc and bought youngsters) and also bought Speroni as a GK.

First half :

Shots 8(5)-0(0)

CCC 3-0

Possession 46-54

Goals 2-0

I know it will stop working just wanted to post.

and that is what i am talking about Great defending, perfect counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF5NehAzqIs

vs better team (no pressure) H 2-0, 18(10)-4(1), 6-0, 41-59

vs worst team (show me) A 2-1, 5(3)-5(2), 1-2, 56-44 (dont count it as i was left 10 men and goal penalty in 14th minute and change things)

vs worst team (nothing) H 1-0, 8(3)-1(0), 1-0, 53-47 (used attack tactic at 70th minute to score)

vs better team (no pressure) A 1-0, 11(5)-10(4), 3-0, 50-50 (corner goal)

vs much worst team (nothing) A 0-0, 11(1)-2(1), 0-0, 58-42 (happy because its a cup trap game)

vs worst team (nothing) H 0-0, 5(3)-5(3), 0-0, 56-44 (red card for me again in 39 minute, didnt risk (change) anything)

tick Get Further Forward and More Direct Passes to EG

tactic 25% fluid, light a cigarette massive test coming

vs olympiakos, much better squad than mine (no pressure, have faith to each, no reactions ) A 0-2, 6(3)-8(2), 1-1, 46-54

happy with tactic, stupid mistakes and unlucky.

Upload what you have HTC. I would be delighted to give it a test in a different league - you could be well on to something.

I had to install a plugin in Chrome and i deleted next progress

I will post quickly : 0-0, 1-0, 1-2, 2-1, 1-1, 0-0.

I cant counter and worst opponents play in much quick tempo and killing me easily.

Here is the tactic (with changes i had in my not saved draft) http://sharesend.com/fnv17j02

But trust me nothing special, actually its bad.

FB Close Down Less, Sit Narrower, Hard Tackle

LD Close Down Less, Hard Tackle

LD same

FB Close Down Less, Sit Narrower, Hard Tackle

Anyone using something like this in the back?

I ve seen that they stand in the field the way i imagine and want.

Problem is how to setup rest of the team to prevent pressure in my area.

Any thoughts?

PS. What i tryied is this, with two DMs that press more, AMR AML AMC that also close down less so that i stay deep and quickly counter. Attacking, Short pass, Much Lower Def Line rest of settings.

How are you finding the LDs working for you? I guess the likes of Trianta, Risvanis and Koutroubis are probably nicely setup for playing LD. What sort of tempo are you playing? I'm at work so can't view your tacitc but will have a look later. Should definitely upload few key games for me to have a look through.

I'm in the process of a rethink of my defense after winning a game last night 6-3 against Panthraikos, 8 CCC to 6 CCC. I don't know what my defense were doing. I'll try and upload it somewhere to have a look, Villalva was on fire though drifting in from the left flank.

Almost at the end of my 3rd season having won the league again but i think i need a new tactic for next season as my old counter attacking tactic only works in Europe now, it is useless against the Greek teams.

What tactic are most teams using against you?

I need a new captain as Trianta really isn't up to the job of captain and i think a new left back as Taglifaco has been a disappointment, Chouchoumis is steady but not spectacular and a regen Kefalas although a real prospect is only 17 so too green.

I was away too yesterday i wrote the post. This game has become suxh an addiction trying to steel time from work/girlfirend/friends etc to make tests.

The problem is i dont want to start a save not knowing that i will use a good tactic. I spend so much time building the squad***, hire coaches, training, friendlies and dont want to reach half of the season to realize that i have a tactic problem. Then you start testing again and you need time to make your new approach familiar and you sacrifice more results. I know this isnt the way to play the game, but this the way i want to play it (unfortunatelly i am not 16 any more to have huge amount of time).

So what i do now is start a challenge in FMC and with load save trying new things. I hope i find something.

***there are some great changes in players in new patch. I recomend you start a new game as this is the last one in FM 14. Trianta, Risvanis, Lagos are much better (as in reality) and there some great Norther Americans youngsters to sign as free at start (Amorim 20, Duylio 21, Adriano (quick striker at his 25s), Thiaguinho 22, Federico Freire 22 and Fabinho from Londrina who costs only 100K and he is a great CWB).

My squad in my new save.

GK Kapino 19, Tabakis 20

RB Marinakis 19, Bakakis 21

CB Trianta 20, Risvanis 19

CB Lagos 21, Koutroubis 22

DL Stafylidis 19 (Loan), Grillo 20 (Loan)

DM Amorim 20, Vasilakakis 25

DM Duylio 21, Zeca 24

MR Fabinho 23, Adriano 25

ML Thiaguinho 22, Korovesis 22

AMC Freire 22, Stavrou 23

ST Vellios 21 (Loan), Cacule 21 (Loan)

I will keep 75% (or maybe all of them if i can buy the Loans) of them for 10 years.

Only gaps i have is Vasilakakis (i will buy Katidis at January, his contract expires at 2014) and an AMC to replace Stavrou which is descent for start but bad for CL)

Only thing left is to find the approach.

I chose LDs because they give me the choise of Close Down Less as i hate the constant press my CDs were making leaving gaps behind. I will test more and tell you

Tell me about the lack of time, i'm currently in the middle of planning a wedding. Well i'm not really planning that is my fiance's job as i can't be trusted but even so she still picks the worst moment possible when playing FM to ask me if i like a certain type of flowers. The amount of goals i've conceded at the same time she asks me about the wedding is ridiculous.

She also wanted me to renounce FM as part of our wedding vows, told her it wasn't happening. I think she's accepted her fate now that it'll always be a part of our lives together.

Anyway back to business, i agree with the FMC approach of getting your tactics spot on and really understanding what works and doesn't. That has been key to my understanding on this year's version and how i probably stumbled upon my eventual solution with Pana. I like the idea of the LD to avoid pressing of CBs and i'm tempted as given Trianta and Burdisso's stats i think they are suited to that. I like the rest of the team to close down but i really could do with the CB staying where they are. Though do you not find too many hoofs upfield and loss of possession when playing that role?

I'm also tempted to switch from a regista at DM and ball winning midfield in the centre of the park to a half back and DLP - support combo and get more out of Lagos at half back than i do currently. I also have Donis and Anastopolous who can both be my greek answer to Busquets.

I've developed a high pressing formation which does seem to be scoring more goals against the Greek teams though saw me lose 2-0 at home to Olympiakos in the cup last night (2 goals from corners urgh). Thinking i need a new formation for the new season but for the moment my counter tactic is working well in Europe if not in Greece and i beat Ajax 2-1 away in the Europa League quarter final last night ( was winning 2-0 until the 91st minute and had 4 CCC).

I'm not sure i can start a new game now as my players have come on quite a bit and have grown quite attached to the team i have. Starting again i find is never the same.

Just need a leader of my team and i think i can really start to mount a proper assault on Europe.