What happened to Strength stat??

Hi,

Just uploaded my new FM14 - took my LL team from Sweden that I was managing in FM13 … and 2 things have struck me…

1. All the players are significantly better than they were before. I now have several 4-5 star players whereas before I barely had a 3.5 star player…

2. And most importantly - they are all SO weak. The strength stat has plummeted. Two of the players are 12 & 13 strength - but all the others are lucky to be above 5. Many are on 1 or 2!

Is this right, or real?

Is the Strength stat a metaphorical indication of the physical 'footballing strength' of the player, as opposed to the pure muscle/physical stature on the field? Because I have had a lot of experience coaching real lower league players (Ryman etc) and they were all anything but weak. Finesse, touch, composure, skill may have lacked a little - but height, speed and most notably strength was in abundance with these guys… !

So what has happened?

A symptom of how SI rates lower league players - they generally have really poor attributes across the board. As I'm sure you'll agree, to play at Ryman League level you need to have something about you, whether that be technical, physical or mental ability. The reason they play non-league is they only have 1 or 2 of the 3, and are really lacking in one area. Obviously there are also some players that are just really average across the board.

Even at Sunday level we've all played with players who can strike a dead ball better than 95% of pros, or are strong as an ox, or quicker than Michael Owen in his prime. A guy in my Sunday team is literally one of the most lethal finishers I've ever seen at any level, he just does not miss. But he doesn't have the dedication or belief to get himself in shape and play even at Ryman level.

1. The stars rating is not an indication of absolute ability figures. They are always relative to the quality of your team. Thus an increased stars rating does not necessarily mean at all the the players are now better than they were before. It may as much just indicate that the gap in quality within your team has become bigger than it was before.

2. Can't say much about this. Have you checked in the editor whether these attributes are actually researched or might they be random? (i.e. with a '0' in the editor)

A symptom of how SI rates lower league players - they generally have really poor attributes across the board. As I'm sure you'll agree, to play at Ryman League level you need to have something about you, whether that be technical, physical or mental ability. The reason they play non-league is they only have 1 or 2 of the 3, and are really lacking in one area. Obviously there are also some players that are just really average across the board.

Even at Sunday level we've all played with players who can strike a dead ball better than 95% of pros, or are strong as an ox, or quicker than Michael Owen in his prime. A guy in my Sunday team is literally one of the most lethal finishers I've ever seen at any level, he just does not miss. But he doesn't have the dedication or belief to get himself in shape and play even at Ryman level.

That is really an indication of how good pros are.

Most sunday league players would get 1-2 across the board for all stats. The 1-20 ratings are not a scale based on the average person but for footballers in particular.

So while some non-league players are getting stats of 7-10 for things, you and I would only be getting 1. At best.

If you've ever played against real pros you will realise just how big the gap is.

I had a trial at Colchester when I was 13 or so. I was staggered by how big the gap was between them and me. And that was 13 years olds at a league 1 club.

That is really an indication of how good pros are.

Most sunday league players would get 1-2 across the board for all stats. The 1-20 ratings are not a scale based on the average person but for footballers in particular.

So while some non-league players are getting stats of 7-10 for things, you and I would only be getting 1. At best.

If you've ever played against real pros you will realise just how big the gap is.

I had a trial at Colchester when I was 13 or so. I was staggered by how big the gap was between them and me. And that was 13 years olds at a league 1 club.

I would only agree with this in terms of technical and, to a lesser degree, mental stats. But the physical gap between high level professional players and lower league's couldn't possibly be as high as that! A person with little to no skill in football can still be very strong, fast, agile etc. I can't imagine how these values could be so heavily impacted by some "proficiency" in using those physical attributes in footballing terms. After all, surely that is what the technical and mental stats are for.

I know plenty of fast guys that use their speed in other competitive sports. I wouldn't imagine they should be penalised by x amount of acceleration and pace points to relate their speed to football. Surely that would be the role of attributes like dribbling,technique, anticipation and decisions.

Anyway i hope that this is not the case. It would just be silly to imagine some tank of a guy having a strength score of less than 5 because he play's in a lower league and has to be penalised to bring his relative score down. Madness.

I would only agree with this in terms of technical and, to a lesser degree, mental stats. But the physical gap between high level professional players and lower league's couldn't possibly be as high as that! A person with little to no skill in football can still be very strong, fast, agile etc. I can't imagine how these values could be so heavily impacted by some "proficiency" in using those physical attributes in footballing terms. After all, surely that is what the technical and mental stats are for.

I know plenty of fast guys that use their speed in other competitive sports. I wouldn't imagine they should be penalised by x amount of acceleration and pace points to relate their speed to football. Surely that would be the role of attributes like dribbling,technique, anticipation and decisions.

Anyway i hope that this is not the case. It would just be silly to imagine some tank of a guy having a strength score of less than 5 because he play's in a lower league and has to be penalised to bring his relative score down. Madness.

I agree that the average person can be NATURALLY good physically - but athletes hone these skills. Even if you took the quickest person off the street you could find they couldn't outrun the slowest professional sprinter.

So while all things being equal a sunday league player could be as quick as a premier league one - the fact they are training year round to reach a peak physically means they will always outperform non-pros.

Of course there will be overlaps. Some pros are slow, but I am sure this is reflected in the game.

Same for the lower league tank. He may be big, he may even spend time down the gym - but he will never be as strong as a pro who spends every day training physically and is honed to perfection by a number of professional paid to work directly with this person. Not to mention how their lives are controlled away from training - diet etc.

Plus your average beefcake that might challenge some pros in strength isn't going to be suited to playing football - at any level.

I looked at the football manager manual which offers the following description: "Each player is rated on a scale of 1-20, 1 being absolutely terrible, and 20 being elite."

More importantly, it mentions that - "Relative attributes are those that can be compared to other players in the football world" which supports your point that the scale is only relative to professionals, not averages joe's.

However, i'm still of the opinion that, of the three categories more instances of higher physical stats would be found in lower leagues than the the other two categories.

The Football manager manual describe strength as "A player's strength is his ability to exert his physical force on an opponent to his benefit. A player with a high strength rating will be able to use it to his advantage against weaker opponents."

I feel quite comfortable in suggesting that i know plenty of people that could exert a higher physical force over plenty of professional footballers, perhaps using an example like Raheem Sterling of Liverpool, who has a strength rating of around 8-9 would demonstrate my point.

I think many guys who spend consistent hours at the gym would be irked at the thought of you giving them a score lower than 1 in strength due to your point - "Same for the lower league tank. He may be big, he may even spend time down the gym - but he will never be as strong as a pro who spends every day training physically".

I agree with your final point that they may be strong but unable to apply their strength to football as effectively as a professional can, but is that not what the technical and mental stats are for; to relate physical stats to the football world?

My main point is that i would also be concerned if a large volume of player's in a lower leagues team had such low strength ratings, as i'm unconvinced that lower leagues players are almost all weaker than higher level footballers. I just can't imagine that even the weedy guys at elite level have higher strength than large, well built players at lower levels are.

Do we really believe that his entire team, bar one of two guys is actually weaker than Raheem Sterling! I mean look at the guy, his limbs are sticks!

I've played with some very good players, including a winger who was on Norwich's books, and at 35 and hungover was still the quickest player in the league, while the ball was pretty much glued to his feet. He didn't make it because he liked the booze, birds (and more...) too much. He had the technical skills and I dare say the physical skills to make it, just not the mental skills. By your reckoning his technical, dribbling and set-piece skills would be below 5. Any free-kick less than 25 yards out was an automatic goal - the keepers may have been dodgy as a rule but most of the time he stuck them right in the top corner anyway.

being a lower league team most likely their attributes are random and the game assigns very low values for strenght. i saw this in fm13 with Mexican Premier League DC's who had '0' in the editor and <10 strength in-game

This annoys the hell out of me. Of course you can have lower league players who can compete physically with the top players. Marian Pudzianowski wouldn't set the world alight on the pitch but he sure as hell wouldn't be muscled off the ball by the average premiership player.

Adie Mike came through Man City's youth system in the early nineties. A twenty year old Adie Mike would still be one of the three quickest players at the club now. He didn't make it he spent the majority of his career in non league football. His pace wasn't enough because he didn't make the runs to capitalise on it and didn't have the skill to convert when he did.

In FM by the time he was 26 and playing lower league football his CA would be capped in line with his leagues standard for example 85. Because of his CA his pace would be capped at say 12 which is ********. That's saying no one in div two can beat an average premiership CM in a straight race.

I know why SI do it. They don't want the CA spread with in leagues to be all over the place. One researcher in div 2 giving an average of 120 and all the rest giving an average of 80. Secondly because physical attributes are overpowered in the ME an Adie Mike with Pace 18 in the Northern Prem would rip it apart, but isn't half the reason he'd over-perform because the rest of the league have their physical attributes set artificially low to get within the CA cap?

It's yet another year and yet another time when SI REALLY need to split mental, physical and technical attributes into three CAs.

It drives me crazy. It's not even remotely realistic as every FA Cup match is about how the big side might be more gifted technically but the lower league offering are strong and fit and can get stuck in.

Ugh.

In conclusion - I am not buying this.

And there are many good points made here.

If you take the Technique stat alone, it would be easy to visualise Messi/Ronalado et al as a 19-20 and a LL players as a 4-8. Similarly with most of the mental attributes mentioned. But I am not seeing that there is gaping gulf between physical strength - - when there isn't!

As I said - my teams that I worked with were (at best) only marginally slower than a Prem counter parts (talking average Prem players here) and in terms of Strength on par with many Prem players. Strength is one thing that they tend to turn up at the club with or that can change relatively easily - - - I know, we worked on aspects (calmness in front of goal - we called it 'pressure cooker drills') which I suppose could be classed as Composure, with little effect.

The three Strikers at my club were all over 6'3'' and were extremely strong. That's all that most LL teams have - long ball+big bloke=goal. And If all else fails - muscle the other bugger off the ball using strength...

Shame SI don't see it that way.

….And one more thing - - has anyone else noticed that it's hard to watch the flight of the ball now? Especially when it comes towards you? Weirdness… .

I can also imagine that this could have the unintended negative effect of causing all the leagues to play in a similar fashion. Lower leagues should demonstrate a similar degree of physicality but lower levels of technical and mental strength than the higher leagues. By nerfing the physical stats of the lower leagues to bring down their CA in a controlled manner it dilutes the differences seen in real life.

Hi,

Just uploaded my new FM14 - took my LL team from Sweden that I was managing in FM13 … and 2 things have struck me…

1. All the players are significantly better than they were before. I now have several 4-5 star players whereas before I barely had a 3.5 star player…

2. And most importantly - they are all SO weak. The strength stat has plummeted. Two of the players are 12 & 13 strength - but all the others are lucky to be above 5. Many are on 1 or 2!

Is this right, or real?

Is the Strength stat a metaphorical indication of the physical 'footballing strength' of the player, as opposed to the pure muscle/physical stature on the field? Because I have had a lot of experience coaching real lower league players (Ryman etc) and they were all anything but weak. Finesse, touch, composure, skill may have lacked a little - but height, speed and most notably strength was in abundance with these guys… !

So what has happened?

You realize the stars are relative, mostly to your own squad but also the league. If you were to use the editor and make a 200 CA/PA player for that squad you would see all those guys with 4 stars now plumit to 1.5 or maybe 1 star. Has your best player left since last year or something? That would eplain it. Or perhaps if one player was overrated last year and now his CA/PA has been lowered. That would give the other players more stars.

I don't really like the system coz your own squad counts too much, should be based mostly on your league not your own squad.

I can also imagine that this could have the unintended negative effect of causing all the leagues to play in a similar fashion. Lower leagues should demonstrate a similar degree of physicality but lower levels of technical and mental strength than the higher leagues. By nerfing the physical stats of the lower leagues to bring down their CA in a controlled manner it dilutes the differences seen in real life.

Nah it doesn't. I'm a lower league manager and I can tell you the poor technical and mental attributes are all too evident. They're so bad that when I read dozens of threads on ME bugs I don't know what people are on about - my matches are probably riddled with bugs but I simply put it all down to the players being utter pants and doesn't get stressed bout it.

I don't doubt that the technical and mental differences are evident. What i am implying is that their physical stats aren't reflective of what you might see in real life. Yes they won't be at an elite level but not every lower league player will have extremely low stats in strength,acceleration and pace which is what the OP describes as being the case with his team. I'm suggesting that even lower league players are capable of being extremely strong or fast, even when compared to the elite level. I'm suggesting that the fastest guys in league 2 could probably run as fast as prem players. Unfortunately i don' t think this is being reflected in the game due to these players having to have much lower CA and PA. I would imagine that this causes the game to play out in a style that isn't as accurate as it might otherwise be. They will still play crap, but not in the right way.

I could be totally wrong of course, it's just a thought. Perhaps premier league players actually are super human in strength and pace compared to lower league players. I just don't see the evidence for it. I'd like to think i could knock out Raheem Sterling or David Silva so i'd expect a strength rating of higher than theirs desipte the fact they would annihilate me with anything to do with the ball. The counter argument is that the physical stats are specific to football. But in that case what separates a strong footballer from another strong person who doesn't play football at all?

Essentially the issue is that physical stats are given too much weighting by the match engine, so lower league players have to have their physical stats unrealistically lowered in order to balance the game and make them play like non-leaguers. As others have implied, there's no way on earth that (pulling a random high-CA player out of thin air) David Silva is quicker than Usain Bolt, but he's a far better player and therefore has a far greater CA. As a result Bolt's stats will be artificially capped and Bolt would end up with Pace and Acceleration stats significantly lower than Silva's, despite the fact that he'd obliterate Silva in a foot race.

Case in point, how many times have you seen your scouts rave about a striker whose only double-digit stats are Acceleration and Pace? I know I've seen it more times than I could count. Lower league players can't have good Pace and Acceleration stats because the game values those two stats too highly.

I think strength, pace, acc and other attributes should have a clear impact in match situations. But that a system that more or less auto sets players in lower reputation leagues to be a lot slower and weaker physically doesn't reflect what's the case as in countries such as Sweden and probably nowhere else I'll guess.

Been complaining about the physical stats of lower league players for a long time. Just because players are in league 2 it doesn't mean they don't do any fitness or strength work.

I completely accept that lower league players will typically have worse technical and mental attributes, but, in my mind, it should be their personalities and hidden attributes that really set them apart from the elites. I haven't played enough at lower leagues to know how much of a noticeable impact this actually has. At the higher levels i don't feel like enough feedback is provided to know how much impact these hidden attributes and their personalities have as the game unfolds. I know that ambition and professionalism greatly enhance the likelihood of player's developing but i only know that through reading these forums.

I'm of the opinion that they should bring lower league players physical stats back into reality and punish them for being weak willed and less motivated to work their way to the top of the footballing world

I also quite like vonblade's idea of splitting CA/PA for all three categories. Might not be ideal or easy to implement but i can totally appreciate what he hopes would result from such a radical change.

I do 'cheat' and look at hidden personality attributes; they do tend to be much lower for lower league players.

In previous incarnations of the game pace/acceleration were over-weighted but that hasn'r been the case for a few years now. I do agree that there should nott be a vast difference between the best LL players and higher-league pros in some of the physical attributes such as the aforementioned 2 and jumping, but attributes such as agility, balance, stamina and strength would be strongly affected by the quality of training - even 'natural' fitness would be affected by diet and sports science, and these would be at a higher level at higher division sides.

Physically generally at a higher level yes, but not these often extreme differences.