FM 2012 Massive Tactic Testing Thread by Hazza22299

Introduction

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/97738-fm12-tactic-testing-championship.html

After viewing a previous thread about this subject, I decided to use the database given on page 2 of the link thread. This database contains 24 teams of identical ability, size, reputation and everything else. The only thing different in each team was the tactic used. I compiled 24 of the best tactics on the game to see who would come out on top.

Here are the 24 teams:

532 Attack (TheBetterHalf) - http://thebetterhalf.freeforums.org/post164.html#p164

532 Cautious (TheBetterHalf) - http://thebetterhalf.freeforums.org/post164.html#p164

532 Standard Counter (TheBetterHalf) - http://thebetterhalf.freeforums.org/post164.html#p164

Anderz88's 4-1-2-3 Exploit (Anderz88) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/102895-anderz88s-4-1-2-3-exploit.html

Attack! Attack! 4-1-1-2-2 (OoScotsmanoO) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/91020-attack-attack-4-1-1-2-2-ooscotsmanoo-211-goals-62-games-most-clean-sheets.html

FMTN Diablo Recreation Tactic (Tactikzz) - http://fmtacticalnewspaper.fmcrowd.com/diablo-recreation-tactic-for-fm-2012-released/

FMTN Grid System - Press (Tactikzz) - http://www.mediafire.com/?biwjj6qj3d4tfvl

FMTN Grid System - Stand-Off (Tactikzz) - http://www.mediafire.com/?1o5m7s865uc7miy

Giant Killer by Steve* (Steve*) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/88433-giant-killer-steve*.html

Goal Hunger (AttifChacker) - http://www.fmscout.com/a-fm12-tactic-the-goal-hunger.html

GoalsGalore V3 (Koflok) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=5660

Into Oblivion (TheBetterHalf) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=5664

JP Wenger's Tactic (JPWoody) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/96828-jp-woodys-wenger-style-tactics-12-2-2-a.html

JP's Germany Style Tactics (JPWoody) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/85678-jp-woodys-germany-style-tactics-2012-a.html

Minimal Fuss V3 (Fusstidious) - http://www.thedugout.net/community/showthread.php?t=81692

Might and Magic™ (Raikan007) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/84636-might-magic%99-raikan007.html

ParkThePlane 4-3-1-2 (Eds-99) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=3412

Match Engine Exploit Narrow 433 (Raikan007) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/102911-raikan007s-match-engine-exploit-narrow-tactic-433-a.html

Short and Sweet™ (Raikan007) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=5700

Sir Alex Ferguson Tactics (Roberto.Mancini) - http://www.fmscout.com/i-1243-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-Tactics.html

Swansea Treble First Season 4-3-2-1 (Sumthin) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-tactics-training/97429-swansea-treble-first-season-sumthins-4-2-3-1-a.html

V1 Match Engine Exploiter (Hazza22299) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=6774

V2 Match Engine Exploiter (Hazza22299) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=6816

Zero Sea's Fairyland V4 (Zero Sea) - http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=3946

First I added 24 managers with equal experience (International Footballer). I gave them their separate tactics and converted them to classic (Making them unchangeable by the Ass. Manager). I then holidayed for a year, only interrupting when a manager was sacked.

I did not cheat/change anything to anyone's tactic, these results were not modified at all.

Results

The overall table:

The table by goals for:

As you can see Goal Hunger ( The Goal Hunger 1.0 ) delivers what it promises.

The table by least conceded:

My version 2 tactic conceded the least, followed by Tactikzz' Stand-Off and the ParkThePlane.

The top scorer comes from OoScotsManoO's Attack! Attack!

The goals from corners:

The amount of goals from corners was quite close, JP Wenger's tactic scored the most from corners.

Is there anything else you want me to post? I can do another season if requested enough.

The most assists:

The most assists were from my updated version.

The top scorer:

The top scorer comes from OoScotsManoO's Attack! Attack!

Here's the Home Table:

Here's the Away Table:

Good work - very surprised that the diablo recreation tactic from tactizz is better than both Grids? :O

Good work - very surprised that the diablo recreation tactic from tactizz is better than both Grids? :O

I was suprised at that too. I'm doing another season soon without any exploit tactics (My 2, Raikan's One and Anderz88's one)

I was suprised at that too. I'm doing another season soon without any exploit tactics (My 2, Raikan's One and Anderz88's one)

Was just going to request you do this.

Great work Hazza!

Huge effort you've put in here mate, although I do have a suggestion for improvement (in my opinion of course). I think it would be a lot more meaningful if you used your database to test each user tactic against a league full of the common default ones. I now this would be much more time consuming, but it would be a much better indicator of how well the tactics perform when playing a normal game. I'm guessing not many people usually play in a league with 23 mates who all use 'supertactics'.

If I get time, I might even do one or two such tests myself, using your database.

I can send you a link to a database containing 24 defaults squads you can re-name one squad and call it the name of the tactic you wish to test. Then add the 23 other manager and then go on hiliday.

I could run that test with the best tactics and see how they fare but it would VERY time-consuming.

Not being a dick here, but i'm fairly confident my tactic creates not only the best play to watch but would also produce better results.

Have you uploaded it anywhere? If you mean this one http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/312244-FourThreeThree-Near-Perfection then I'll consider it. Only because I'm not sure I want to include any tactics with 3 central strikers in my next test as it is an exploit.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/312440-3-Central-Strikers-exploit

After reading that post, i'm assuming that this forum is one where folks look after there own and don't encourage debate.

I have no interest now in you testing my tactic, as I have no faith in the impartiality of this section of the forum.

Regards

Gk

That escalated quickly, I thought it was common knowledge that 3 central strikers was an ME flaw in FM2012. There are about 9 ME flaws in this game but this is one of the biggest. I was most likely going to include it anyway as it wasn't designed as an exploit tactic.

Hazza,

Thank you for your reply. I'd rather you don't include the tactic as this thread and its content seems to be to judge "fair" tactics, which mines is apparantly not.

To say i'm not amused with the moderators repsonse would be putting it mildly.

I fail to see how I could have been confused about ME flaws when I wasn't aware that any existed. I merely created a tactic based on how I felt football should be played, not to exploit a ME. The corner "exploit2 is the only addition added to it as folks in the forum I frequent requested that. I beleive strongly that the tactic, aside from this, was created fairly and in keeping with the ethos of designing tactics to replicate real life tactical decisions.

I have, however, been arrogantly dismissed as being confused about ME flaws I knew nothing about.

If there are about 9 flaws in the ME then fair enough. My tactic wasn't designed to cater for them.

GK

I can understand your frustration, it's because many people have asked me to do a test without exploits that I was unsure about including yours.

Cool dude. Like I said, drop me a PM with the 9 ME flaws and i'll create a "clean tactic" without them.

I value honesty and fairness and wouldn't want to take part in a test scenario that wasn't fair.

I think I've sent you one, correct me if I'm wrong.

There is a huge flow with this theory. Personally I found Minimal FUSS (V3 Final) to be consistently the best tactic. Anyway what you are doing is comparing these tactics against each other. Your tactic might be good against other peoples tactics but what really matters is how they perform against AI teams.

Hazza, surely one of the flaws with your testing is going on holiday for the entire testing experience?

Hazza, surely one of the flaws with your testing is going on holiday for the entire testing experience?

Yes, this way of testing isn't perfect but it gives some indication as to the ability of the tactics. The best way to test it would be to set up 24 different saves each with 24 managers (every team in the league) and only change one thing, which tactic will be used for one team. That tactic would perform against 23 other default formations. That way you could find out:

How good each tactic is home and away?

How does it compare with other tactics?

Which formations does it work best against?

Which formations does it work worst against?

And many more...

The trouble is, this method is VERY time consuming and would take forever to complete. Especially if you didn't holiday during these saves.

It would be time consuming, but the results would be very interesting. Maybe you could ask for volunteers to test a tactic each? I might do one, but I think 24 teams I overkill for that test. I'd say maybe only 10-12 teams needed in league (& no cups) which would make testing massively quicker. For the other 9-11 teams, just assign the top 9-11 premiership managers, and let them play whatever tactics they normally would.

If I had volunteers it wouldn't be as accurate, everyone plays FM differently. Things like training and press conferences are things that everyone has their own way of approaching, these different approaches will give different results. It would be more accurate than what I've already done I suppose.

The problem with these tests is that the newer games of Football Manager rely fairly heavily on team and player morale, including team talks. They have a huge impact on match results and continuing your run of form. Handing this over to an AI manager, or assistant and then going on holiday, would have a huge impact on tactic and team performance.

The newer versions of FM have brought in a psychological aspect that is very much an important factor of getting good results.

The problem with these tests is that the newer games of Football Manager rely fairly heavily on team and player morale, including team talks. They have a huge impact on match results and continuing your run of form. Handing this over to an AI manager, or assistant and then going on holiday, would have a huge impact on tactic and team performance.

The newer versions of FM have brought in a psychological aspect that is very much an important factor of getting good results.

I know, I made sure each assistant manager had the same attributes but of course that doesn't guarantee they will each say the same things every time.

How did u pick players for teams

How did u pick players for teams

I didn't. I used a database containing 24 teams each with identical ability/potential players.

I'm going away for 2-3 weeks so I probably won't be able to respond/post during this time. Thanks.

Edit: It turns out the place I'm staying at has wifi

i have used ass. manager team talk instead of yours. for me, it made it more consistent. perhaps its because of my reputation ..

i have used ass. manager team talk instead of yours. for me, it made it more consistent. perhaps its because of my reputation ..

Yes, the better your rep the more effective the suggested team talks are

I'm surprised Brobs tactic has not been featured in the test as I have found this to be the best tactic I have used

This is very intersting, but indeed, I miss Brob's too, just like Knap's and Mr Hough's.

There could be some tactics from the tactical forum in it too. Cleon is a tactical mastermind for example, just like a lot of other forum members.

Perhaps anyone of them is willing to share their tactics for this test?

Anyway, even without all things mentioned above, it was very nice to see. Thanks for sharing Hazza.

Please post the home table, the image is missing!

Hazza22299 please post the home table, it is missing the image!

Great work, looking forward to see mora massive tests on FM 2013!

can you test with voducao's tactic ?

Post any tactics you want tested here.

I'm surprised Brobs tactic has not been featured in the test as I have found this to be the best tactic I have used

This is very intersting, but indeed, I miss Brob's too, just like Knap's and Mr Hough's.

There could be some tactics from the tactical forum in it too. Cleon is a tactical mastermind for example, just like a lot of other forum members.

Perhaps anyone of them is willing to share their tactics for this test?

Anyway, even without all things mentioned above, it was very nice to see. Thanks for sharing Hazza.

You mean the 4-1-2-3? I wasn't too keen on including too many of that formation but I could include it in a later test. Unless people say it uses exploits (Narrow formation, 3 central strikers) I'm not really in a position to say if it is an exploiter as I haven't used it before. For my next test I'm not using any 4-1-2-3 tactics but it will almost certainly feature in future tests.

can you test with voducao's tactic ?

Could you post a link?

Please post the home table, the image is missing!

Hazza22299 please post the home table, it is missing the image!

Great work, looking forward to see mora massive tests on FM 2013!

It's not missing on mine, is it missing on any one else's?

I don't understand how this was done. How did you "give them their separate tactics"??? Did you create 24 player managers and somehow put them into a single multiplayer league or something? How were you able to go on vacation then? I want to do similar testing, I would like to understand how to recreate the process.

I don't understand how this was done. How did you "give them their separate tactics"??? Did you create 24 player managers and somehow put them into a single multiplayer league or something? How were you able to go on vacation then? I want to do similar testing, I would like to understand how to recreate the process.

I created 24 managers in the save (one for each team) by pressing "add new manager". I then chose the tactics for that team and then holidayed for a year, remembering to select "Use current first team tactics." or something along those lines.

I created 24 managers in the save (one for each team) by pressing "add new manager". I then chose the tactics for that team and then holidayed for a year, remembering to select "Use current first team tactics." or something along those lines.

I'll give it a try, didn't realise I could play with multiple self created managers in the same save file. Thanks!

I'll give it a try, didn't realise I could play with multiple self created managers in the same save file. Thanks!

Whaaat?!

How did you not know this?! How else did you cheat when you were 10 years old playing cm 01-02 and you were managing Scunthorpe and wondering why you weren't beating barca everytime?

:o

Could you post a link?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/288166-FM2012-Vodu-Caos-12.0-Official-Thread

Awesome post. Thanks for sharing this. But I must say that I also miss Mr Hough tactics in this test, but of course ... you decide what tactics to include

It's not missing on mine, is it missing on any one else's?

Can't see it neither in firefox or internet explorer, can you upload it in a post?

Ok, I've run a similar test using first 24 tactics I saw on this forum about 5 times and it looks like tactics either don't have that much of an effect on outcomes or most tactics posted here are of a somewhat similar level. Basicially I'll have a different set of top 5 tactics every time, with a new #1 every time. For example Hazza's v2 exploiter tactic finished 2nd on the first run and was midtable on second run. I'm guessing that perhaps Morale is having a large effect, i.e. if you get a bad start to the season the Morale goes bad and makes the team underachieve a bit when compared to other teams. It's also possible that the Fluidity level of some of these tactics takes away from their stability.

I'll start recording top 5 tactics after every run and assigning them point values (i.e 5 pts for 1st place, 4 pts for 2nd, etc) and adding them up, run after run to see if there are some that appear in the top five with at least some regularity, but so far it seems like if there are any, they're not exactly consistently dominant.

Ok, I've run a similar test using first 24 tactics I saw on this forum about 5 times and it looks like tactics either don't have that much of an effect on outcomes or most tactics posted here are of a somewhat similar level. Basicially I'll have a different set of top 5 tactics every time, with a new #1 every time. For example Hazza's v2 exploiter tactic finished 2nd on the first run and was midtable on second run. I'm guessing that perhaps Morale is having a large effect, i.e. if you get a bad start to the season the Morale goes bad and makes the team underachieve a bit when compared to other teams. It's also possible that the Fluidity level of some of these tactics takes away from their stability.

I'll start recording top 5 tactics after every run and assigning them point values (i.e 5 pts for 1st place, 4 pts for 2nd, etc) and adding them up, run after run to see if there are some that appear in the top five with at least some regularity, but so far it seems like if there are any, they're not exactly consistently dominant.

Sounds good. Keep me updated.

Hazza22299(SecondAccount) please post the home table image...

Sorry mate, i have tried your tactics and is nothing special :/

Please post a home table image, i'm having difficulties in winning at home and i need that table!

Please post a home table image, i'm having difficulties in winning at home and i need that table!

1. Attack! Attack! by OoScotsmanoO

2. Goal Hunger (FM Scout)

3. JP Germany Style Tactics

4. FMTN Diablo Tactic

5. V2 Match Exploiter Hazza

6. Goals Galore V3

1. Attack! Attack! by OoScotsmanoO

2. Goal Hunger (FM Scout)

3. JP Germany Style Tactics

4. FMTN Diablo Tactic

5. V2 Match Exploiter Hazza

6. Goals Galore V3

Thank you so much, ignore my private message and post at fm-base!

I dont know ..but i have so good players and they dont play nothing..with that tactic..

Sounds good. Keep me updated.

Well the results are extremely random, I was shocked at how pretty much all the tactics would appear in the top 5 eventually. However there does seem like a little bit of a scale where some tactics appear there a little more often then usual. Here are the results according to that (5 for 1st, 4 for 2nd, etc) scale I mentioned:

1. Grid press - 29 pts

2. Grid stand off - 27 pts

3. Grom 424 - 23 pts

4. FM BOSS Barca - 22 pts

5. 4222 tweak - 21 pts

6. MAGICK Final - 20 pts

7. 4-1-2-2-1 - 19 pts

8. Marcelo 442 v3 - 18 pts

9. knap 442 106 - 17 pts

10. 3 match exp 2.3 - 16 pts

11-12. Glassy 442 - 13 pts

11-12. TM Possession Dom - 13 pts

13. Brobs Ultimate - 12 pts

14. TM Possession Hough's Cor - 11 pts

15-17. Woody 4231 - 10 pts

15-17. 5-3-2 Conte - 10 pts

15-17. 4231 Latest Version - 10 pts.

18. Korbens 4231 - 9 pts

19-20. Mr Hough's Last - 8 pts.

19-20. Fuss V3 Final - 8 pts.

21. 451 Possession - 6 pts.

22. Woody 442 - 5 pts.

23. Marcelo 41131 - 3 pts.

will be this test for fm13?

I would like your DBB to do a testing league, it is possible to dowload it?