defending just awful... could it be a bug?

the reason, why I am asking is, that there has been some huge changes between fm11 and fm12, even though SI claimed, that the ME didnt really change that much.

its about the defensive behaviour in general, but much more of the attacking players.

I am talking about AMR,AML,AMC.

Im playing with a 4231deep formation, and I just cant get my 3 attacking players to close down, track back and help out the two DMCs. some of you might say, that its due to my individual players, their work rate and so on, but come on, I am playing with cahill as amc, drenthe as aml and santana as amr.

all three of them are work horses and still, they dont just close down. Ive made this experience with other players aswell.

its always like that:

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for example, the opposition has a goal kick, uses it short, mostly to one of the full backs, my winger immediately runs towards him, he mostly tricks him out, than there we go, we have a huge gap in the centre of the midfield and nobody of thos 3 drops deep, to close that gap. its not only for goal kicks, but generally, theres always a huge gap in midfield and the opposition is just outplaying me, because my 3 attacking midfielders are just too much advanced and dont drop deep. I am playing with a high d-line, but tried it with a deeper d-line as well, but still the same, the DMCs stay deeper, but the gap is still too huge. I just thought, givin those 3 attacking midfielders lower mentality and lower cf could solve the problem, but it just dont work. they just stay arround and let the opposition move the ball arround, while my two DMCs run the hell ouf of themselves and often getting outplayed, because they have to cover the flanks, the centre of the pitch and often also the opposition DMCs, because my amc or the wingers dont support them.

did you guys also make these kind of experiences? in fm 11, they didnt track back like it was the case irl, but they at least closed down the gaps, even when you had a player, who didnt have that much work rate, but in fm 12, its just horrible. you cant play a formation, which includes attacking wingers or AMC, because your always getting dominated due to this problem.

am gonna post some screenshots later, where I its been shown much better

I think it's a basic thing in football for wingers to track opposition fullbacks. even the best world teams tend to have forwards and attacking midfielders behind the ball, strikers are dropping deep and tracking midfielders. it's really frustrating watching three or four players doing nothing defensivlym once the ball is behind them. and the same thing goes for AI, so it's not a tactical issue.

on the side note, did you notice how effective are through balls and running with ball (pace)? defending is just awful at the moment. I really hope we'll see some improvements in this department in last patch. some congestion both vertical and horizontal would do for a start.

there is so much discussion about morale and team talks these days, it amazes me no one's talking about defending as it really stands out. would be nice to see some feedback here..these forum has changed recently, a couple of years ago such thread would have 20 pages by now.

yes mate, from the very first day on, I am trying to give this subject some attention in this forum, but you know, as usual, people come and tell me something like, its your tactic, I am playing with the same formation, had success with it for 3,4 seasons or even its your player and so on...

some of you guys may know me from the tactic section, so Im not a newbie. I know, that thinks like work rate, aggression, determination, positioning, tackling and so on have influence on how the player acts aswell, but in comparison to the match engine of fm11, defending has become just horrible in fm12. even SI is claiming, that the match engine hasnt really changed, I cant still believe that, as Ive now played over 60-70 games, watching in full mode, trying my tactics from fm11 and so on, but just cant get the defence solid.

4231 deep is one of the most solid formations in football, but in this years game, its so vulnerable, cause you just defend with 6 players, as the front four, especially the 3 attacking midfielders really dont do anything defensively. they just try to block the passing options of the opposition, but with just one pass, theyre outplayed and then, they dont give a **** and dont track back. I dont even want them to track back till my own third and support the defenders, but I can at least expect them to make some pressure in the opposition half, where their positions are, but they just stay arround and my two holding midfielder have to do all the work.

also another point is, how cautious and passiv players have become... as long as you dont play with aggressive tackling, you have almost no chances to win a ball back. I can often see, how an opposition attacking player gets the ball in my own half and just runs through 5-6 players, without any of them just trying to make a tackle or to close him down. they just watch him pass by and let him shot from 5-6 yards...

just look at all the forums, nobody has managed to create a tactic with good defence so far. its not possible. but I cant understand, how it works for the AI. when I just see, that someone like van persie constantly winning challenged against rodwell and fellaini, I just wonder, how wenger set him up...

there's no difference between what human and AI can do in defense as the same tools and systems are used. in my test save with Barca and Real it's usual AI who suffers from poor defending, not me I'm still to loose or draw a game against AI, have played some 10 games with both teams..

the point you made about players being passive, I don't think the main reason is in tackling mentality, because tackling numbers are quite realsitic. I agree with you that Maradona vs England like dribbling looks insane and it happens far too often. but the problem is not in tackling imo. how many times you see players like Van Persie, Bale or Messi being surrounded by 2,3 or even 4 defenders. in FM it's always 1on1. I think such defending would be really hard to code into ME, but there needs something to be done. as I said at least what could be done is to make AM strata to track back and more congestion when defending, because right now defenses are too streched and are getting teared apart too easily by through balls and dribbling. these are my two cents.

What you describe there are changes caused by the morale system - I'm almost entirely sure of that!

With super-motivated, superb-morale players you could expect the forwards (inlcuding AMrlc) to run like hell and close down, tackle etc, but with normal morale (i.e Good) they won't. The issue in 12.0.4 and before was that you could keep your players motivated like that indefinitely so people built tactics based on what they saw - namely that there was no need to keep the attack and the defense as two units close together. In 12.1.x that will have catastrophic consequences, and it will look like your team isn't even on the pitch - they will stand there and watch the opposition run by.

The answer is simple: if your tactic fell apart after 12.1.0 you will have to rebuild it while keeping in mind that the players will be less fired-up because of the tweaked morale system. One thing that has become much more important now is the setting of Closing Down compared to Defensive Line and Width. If you push up high and don't have high enough Closing Down and attacking enough Mentality, your defensive lines will be cut through like a warm knife in butter.

I think it is good that the importance of Team Talks and Morale has been reduced, so that the focus can again become squad management/building and tactics.

What you describe there are changes caused by the morale system - I'm almost entirely sure of that!

With super-motivated, superb-morale players you could expect the forwards (inlcuding AMrlc) to run like hell and close down, tackle etc, but with normal morale (i.e Good) they won't. The issue in 12.0.4 and before was that you could keep your players motivated like that indefinitely so people built tactics based on what they saw - namely that there was no need to keep the attack and the defense as two units close together. In 12.1.x that will have catastrophic consequences, and it will look like your team isn't even on the pitch - they will stand there and watch the opposition run by.

The answer is simple: if your tactic fell apart after 12.1.0 you will have to rebuild it while keeping in mind that the players will be less fired-up because of the tweaked morale system. One thing that has become much more important now is the setting of Closing Down compared to Defensive Line and Width. If you push up high and don't have high enough Closing Down and attacking enough Mentality, your defensive lines will be cut through like a warm knife in butter.

I think it is good that the importance of Team Talks and Morale has been reduced, so that the focus can again become squad management/building and tactics.

not a bad idea with closing down relating to the d-line, but the other point you mentioned, this mentality thing, fm 12.0.4 had the same problem. as you say, it was much easier to motivate players before fm 12.1, but I saw exactly the same problems in fm 12.0.4 aswell, even worse. so I think, it might have something to do with morale aswell, but dont think too much. its just the rigged match engine. your team gets divided into two halfs, when youre defending. the 4 atacking players in my 4231 system just dont to anything defensively. even when I build a system with very fluid mentalities to keep my team as one unit, its just the 4 attacking players stop and dont move, when they lose the ball or when the opposition is passing arround...

not a bad idea with closing down relating to the d-line, but the other point you mentioned, this mentality thing, fm 12.0.4 had the same problem. as you say, it was much easier to motivate players before fm 12.1, but I saw exactly the same problems in fm 12.0.4 aswell, even worse. so I think, it might have something to do with morale aswell, but dont think too much. its just the rigged match engine. your team gets divided into two halfs, when youre defending. the 4 atacking players in my 4231 system just dont to anything defensively. even when I build a system with very fluid mentalities to keep my team as one unit, its just the 4 attacking players stop and dont move, when they lose the ball or when the opposition is passing arround...

I use a 424 tactic as well and the four guys up front does nothing defensively for me either, but the tactic is still defensively solid. A friend of mine used a very similar tactic which fell apart when the patch came. It functioned as normal again when he set all the six non-defenders to close down max, just like mine.

When that is said your observation regarding defending is of course true: only one player will close down at a time, and if that player misses his tackle or is otherwise dribbled past the opposition will be through on goal. I hope that SI manages to build an ME that allows team defending - that would be an amazing development and a major step forward in terms of realism.

Edit: one other thing I have noticed is that team gelling has become much more important after the patch! My Bradford team struggled all until 1st of January the first season in Premier League, then they suddenly and without explanation played amazing football just like they did pre-patch. I signed more than 13 players in the summer window, so I expected a bit of a struggle but what I saw was no link between any of the players both defensively and offensively. I suspect that once again the tweaked morale system is at fault, because superb morale would alleviate the effects of the lack of team gelling.

I use a 424 tactic as well and the four guys up front does nothing defensively for me either, but the tactic is still defensively solid. A friend of mine used a very similar tactic which fell apart when the patch came. It functioned as normal again when he set all the six non-defenders to close down max, just like mine.

When that is said your observation regarding defending is of course true: only one player will close down at a time, and if that player misses his tackle or is otherwise dribbled past the opposition will be through on goal. I hope that SI manages to build an ME that allows team defending - that would be an amazing development and a major step forward in terms of realism.

its not that difficult in my opinion. just have a look at the match engine of fm11. ok, honestly, it wasnt perfect aswell, but at least my front four was closing down and chasing the opposition player, at last in the opposition half, but now, even though, the match engine shall still be the same, I cant really see any similiarities

One thing you can do is to set your AMR and AML to man mark the opponent Fullbacks.

I've try this in a couple of games, and they really track down and close down the opponent fullback with this instructions.

The main problem is, they tend to loose a bit of their attacking mentality, because they are always a little focus on defending the fullback.

But give it a go, it may work for you.

its not that difficult in my opinion. just have a look at the match engine of fm11. ok, honestly, it wasnt perfect aswell, but at least my front four was closing down and chasing the opposition player, at last in the opposition half, but now, even though, the match engine shall still be the same, I cant really see any similiarities

What I'm getting at is that the ME -is- mostly the same, but people built tactics based on what they saw, so most tactics were naturally tweaked to perform amazingly while the players were fired up and playing with extreme confidence because the visual feedback of that was of course the most satisfactory. The new patch effectively removed the basis of those tactics and the result is that even when the team performs well the football they play will not be even close to what it was before. That is what you see.

Defending in FM is generally awful, I agree. I love to tinker with tactics. My backup tactic which I am developing is a modern version of Catenaccio. Basically all about stopping the opposition playing, and maintaining the slimmest attacking option possible in your side. Anyway, if I could make a tactic like this, so I could employ it say... in my Everton game, away at Man Utd, etc. But it just doesn't work. It appears SI spent the budget on developing the attacking phase of play in the match engine. I find it very bizarre. Now I know I have a good understanding of the tactics, sliders, settings, how everything works, so it isn't that. I have the team playing the style I would want them playing, but it just isn't possible to use defending to an advantage in this game. My main tactic is an attacking/possession/tiki-taka tactic, which encourages my fullbacks to sally forth, my defenders to play it into feet along the ground, and my goalkeeper to sweep things up at the back. In essence I should not be able to play like that with anyone but the best, I feel in reality it would be too demanding to ask say... a Championship side to play like this, as it more suits the Barcelona's or the Real Madrid's of this world. But that is infact what happens. Playing as average teams, my sides defend better with defenders set to having less defensive duties and more attacking.

PS. I hate the way, in-match graphics show attackers gliding through my defences like there's nothing there.

What you describe there are changes caused by the morale system - I'm almost entirely sure of that!

With super-motivated, superb-morale players you could expect the forwards (inlcuding AMrlc) to run like hell and close down, tackle etc, but with normal morale (i.e Good) they won't. The issue in 12.0.4 and before was that you could keep your players motivated like that indefinitely so people built tactics based on what they saw - namely that there was no need to keep the attack and the defense as two units close together. In 12.1.x that will have catastrophic consequences, and it will look like your team isn't even on the pitch - they will stand there and watch the opposition run by.

The answer is simple: if your tactic fell apart after 12.1.0 you will have to rebuild it while keeping in mind that the players will be less fired-up because of the tweaked morale system. One thing that has become much more important now is the setting of Closing Down compared to Defensive Line and Width. If you push up high and don't have high enough Closing Down and attacking enough Mentality, your defensive lines will be cut through like a warm knife in butter.

I think it is good that the importance of Team Talks and Morale has been reduced, so that the focus can again become squad management/building and tactics.

defending problem is a couple or even more years old, it's got nothing to do with pre 12.1 or anything like that. morale should have some influence on defensive behaviour sure just like attributes should, but we are talking about basic football principles - wingers tracking fullbacks, covering, team defending etc..this issue is not tactical or motivational, it's about ME code.

defending problem is a couple or even more years old, it's got nothing to do with pre 12.1 or anything like that. morale should have some influence on defensive behaviour sure just like attributes should, but we are talking about basic football principles - wingers tracking fullbacks, covering, team defending etc..this issue is not tactical or motivational, it's about ME code.

thats it

but still wondering, why it wasnt really a problem in fm11... in fm 11, with the tactic I created, I always could manage to concede less than 20 goals in a season with mediacore sides like everton, villarreal, atletico madrid, rennes and so on... in fm11, the amc and the amr/aml at least closed down their opposition in their own half, but now, they are just holding their positions and dont do anything, so that there is a huge gap in the centre of the pitch. if I move the DMCs to CMs in order to close down this gap, than we got a huge gap between the d-line and midfield...

in all fairness both human and AI teams are affected by poor defending, especially teams that play with AM strata formations. while a user might change from 433 to 451 or from 4231 to 4411, AI won't. that's why AI will suffer far more from this issue. for example in La Liga most teams play lone striker formations, this makes the game much easier there.

The same core issues with defending have been there ever since the 3D was introduced. Attacking movement and reactions are so far ahead of the defensive side it causes all sorts of farcical animations.

Real(me) vs Osasuna...they're total under dogs at Bernabeu, playing defensive, maybe counter strategy, 4231 formation...which means mentality is quite defensive..they're dominating posession 59%, it's 13th minute, these are match stats so far (pay attention to my right fullback shots): http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/59431403.jpg/ almost every time I get the ball in ends with shooting oprtunity!!

it's constantly same thing happening, both my fullbacks are set to over-lap and Osasuna wingers just don't track them...this picture says all: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/141/aaaxx.jpg/ ......Ronaldo cuts inside and puts the ball into the box, it's cleared and it comes to Pepe who passes it to Diarra. in that moment both Osasuna wingers run towards the centre line, leaving my both full-backs wide open??!: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/abcl.jpg/

I think it's clear enough what's wrong here.

Did not have much of problem, but then my team (Liverpool) was set for "Control". With only AMC and ST to "Attack".

ok it's 20th minute. look at the shoots stats, posession stats are also interesting: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/861/70809485.jpg/

at this rate of shooting oportunities I will have 45 shots at the end of the game, if it continues like that.

Real(me) vs Osasuna...they're total under dogs at Bernabeu, playing defensive, maybe counter strategy, 4231 formation...which means mentality is quite defensive..they're dominating posession 59%, it's 13th minute, these are match stats so far (pay attention to my right fullback shots): http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/59431403.jpg/ almost every time I get the ball in ends with shooting oprtunity!!

it's constantly same thing happening, both my fullbacks are set to over-lap and Osasuna wingers just don't track them...this picture says all: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/141/aaaxx.jpg/ ......Ronaldo cuts inside and puts the ball into the box, it's cleared and it comes to Pepe who passes it to Diarra. in that moment both Osasuna wingers run towards the centre line, leaving my both full-backs wide open??!: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/abcl.jpg/

I think it's clear enough what's wrong here.

I think this is further evidence that there is a need to scrap the mentality slider and replace it with:

* An attacking duty slider, indicating how much a player is supposed to contribute to attacking play (replacing Mentality, Long Shots and Run From Deep)

* A defensive duty slider, indicating how much a player is supposed to contribute to defense (replacing Mentality and Closing Down)

Actually, I think they should scrap all the sliders and replace them with the two above plus:

* Creative freedom slider, indicating how much a player can ignore the other sliders and follow his instincts

* Passing risk slider, regulating how many through ball attempts and/or short safe sideways/backwards passes a player should make

* Tackling/challenge risk slider, regulating a player's willingness to commit wholly to a tackle or challenge at the possible cost of missing out and opening the defense

* Run/cross/shoot risk slider, regulating a player's willingness to deliver a key pass/shot or go one-on-one with a defender at the risk of losing possession of the ball (replacing Run With Ball, Crossing and Through Balls)

The rest should not be up to the manager in terms of individual instructions.

When it comes to team instructions in Classic mode the only useful ones are Defensive Line, Width, Tempo and Time Wasting. The other ones are automatically overridden by individual instructions and shouldn't be there at all. I hope the new ME comes next year and that it incorporates sideways movement as well as width and a defensive line not only for the defense but also the midfield and attack.

constantly same picture, same thing happening: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/79424094.jpg/

it's half time, match stats: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/864/70165759.jpg/ ..... 19 shots compared to Osasuna 0, none of my players is set to shoot from distance often....

The same core issues with defending have been there ever since the 3D was introduced. Attacking movement and reactions are so far ahead of the defensive side it causes all sorts of farcical animations.

I noticed that what happened after introduction of 3D, ME was never as 'smooth' as it was before. but this idea was dismissed totally, as it is the same ME under what we are able to see.

example of poor defending of through balls

Di Maria gets the ball deep in his half, cuts inside, beats 3 midfielders and finds Ronaldo in space. in the moment Di Maria passes the ball, defender who watches Ronaldo and was holding perfect position runs up to close down Di Maria?! http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/21750261.jpg/

not saying this is unrealistic, just it happens far too often.

example of 1on1 instead of team defending

Messi receives the ball in wide open space. there are 3 defenders which could close Messi down: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/47422434.jpg/

instead of forming a 3-man wall, Messi is left one on one with defender #2. easy pop for 3-0: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/35188614.jpg/

I've never had any problems with defending in Fm2012. I've played with ManUtd, Stoke, Rosenborg and Dover Atheltic so far on Fm2012, and with every team, except from Stoke, I've been the lowest conceding team in my league within the first two seasons. With Stoke I was 4th on that list in my first season. Well, with ManUtd and Rosenborg that's nothing more than one would expect, but for Stoke and Dover I think that's a rather good achievement.

I've never settled on one specific tactics and often change entirely from one season to another but I've always conceded very few goals. So, how am I doing this? To be honest, I have no clue.

Just recently I started a new save with AS Roma and I'm using this tactic:

With this formation my goal-difference so far this season is 17-4 (highest scoring, lowest conceding in Serie A together with Inter) in 10 Serie A matches, with 9 wins and 1 draw. And this is a save I started after the 12.1.0 and as a sunday league footballer!

Ofcourse there's more to a tactic than the formation. I'm always using a BWM with good tckl, workrate and stamina in the midfield. I don't tweak with the defensive line at all, cause whenever I set it higher or lower it seems to have a negative effect no matter what team I manage.

To your problem with offensive players not doing their bit defensively:

Have you set the closing down-bar to "whole pitch"?

Have you tried "Preferred move training" - "Come deep to get the ball?"

I only have 1 or 2 players who's duty is "attack", rest of the squad got defend or support.

I guess you've already tried most of this, but that's my suggestions... Hope you'll get it right.

Remember: this is a game, so situations (I see you're very focused on situations during the game) can't always be realistic, so just go with it, accept it and adjust to it. If I was managing a real football-team I would've defended me very differently from what I do in FM: )

I've never had any problems with defending in Fm2012. I've played with ManUtd, Stoke, Rosenborg and Dover Atheltic so far on Fm2012, and with every team, except from Stoke, I've been the lowest conceding team in my league within the first two seasons. With Stoke I was 4th on that list in my first season. Well, with ManUtd and Rosenborg that's nothing more than one would expect, but for Stoke and Dover I think that's a rather good achievement.

I've never settled on one specific tactics and often change entirely from one season to another but I've always conceded very few goals. So, how am I doing this? To be honest, I have no clue.

Just recently I started a new save with AS Roma and I'm using this tactic:

With this formation my goal-difference so far this season is 17-4 (highest scoring, lowest conceding in Serie A together with Inter) in 10 Serie A matches, with 9 wins and 1 draw. And this is a save I started after the 12.1.0 and as a sunday league footballer!

Ofcourse there's more to a tactic than the formation. I'm always using a BWM with good tckl, workrate and stamina in the midfield. I don't tweak with the defensive line at all, cause whenever I set it higher or lower it seems to have a negative effect no matter what team I manage.

To your problem with offensive players not doing their bit defensively:

Have you set the closing down-bar to "whole pitch"?

Have you tried "Preferred move training" - "Come deep to get the ball?"

I only have 1 or 2 players who's duty is "attack", rest of the squad got defend or support.

I guess you've already tried most of this, but that's my suggestions... Hope you'll get it right.

Remember: this is a game, so situations (I see you're very focused on situations during the game) can't always be realistic, so just go with it, accept it and adjust to it. If I was managing a real football-team I would've defended me very differently from what I do in FM: )

what are you talking about? you think Im an idiot, who didnt pay attention to tactical settings??? just read the starting post! and what does the ppm "comes deep to get the ball" have to do with defending? could you pls explain it to me??? your playing with as rome, especially in this years version, as rome is pretty strong, belongs to the top teams of the league add to that, your playing a formation, where you have 5 central midfielders, so the centre is just overloaded and since wing play is just crap in fm, as usual, its quite normal, that you concede less. I could also switch to the barca 41221 instead of the 4231 and could easily get solid defence, by just overloading the centre, but thats just not the case. were much more thalking about crap defensive behaviour of players than defence in general...

I'm glad it's not just me that has issues with defending. It really is the tracking back that I have most issue with especially wide men and central midfielders. I play a 4-4-2 and have both my CM on rare forward runs but they go forward anyway and then just jog back. Same with wingers. I know someone said man mark your wingers on opposition full back but you shouldn't have to do that. Do wingers man mark full backs IRL? I think not.

Defence really is abysmal in this ME, and this isn't a whinge as it's just as bad for the AI teams as it is for me.

- players don't track back properly

- defensive decision making is very poor, players will run towards a player who is already being covered, leaving either a massive space or in some cases a completely unmarked player

- players running partway to a ball then seeming to decide the opposition will reach it first (and giving up) when its obvious they wouldnt have

- defenders dwelling on the ball in unrealistic situations in their own six yard box, getting tackled by strikers resulting in a goal

- tackling doesnt seem up to much, I've got a player with decent speed and about 10 for dribbling (most other attributes mediocre) but in league 1 he seems like a cross between Aaron Lennon and Wayne Rooney carving through defences at will several times a game

I don't know how much of this is genuinely what played out, versus just not a very good graphical translation. Sometimes I see something that looks like ridiculously poor play but then if I read the match report the description reads differently, eg a player looks like he's just stood still and inexplicably let the opponent take the ball, whereas in the written report it says my player was upended by a strong tackle.

I still think the final patched version of the FM05 ME is the most balanced so far.

what are you talking about? you think Im an idiot, who didnt pay attention to tactical settings??? just read the starting post! and what does the ppm "comes deep to get the ball" have to do with defending? could you pls explain it to me??? your playing with as rome, especially in this years version, as rome is pretty strong, belongs to the top teams of the league add to that, your playing a formation, where you have 5 central midfielders, so the centre is just overloaded and since wing play is just crap in fm, as usual, its quite normal, that you concede less. I could also switch to the barca 41221 instead of the 4231 and could easily get solid defence, by just overloading the centre, but thats just not the case. were much more thalking about crap defensive behaviour of players than defence in general...

Ah, alright. I've had success with a 3-3-1-3 leading Dover Athletic from BS South to League 2 in 2 seasons, with conceding least goals both in BS South and BS Premier so team strength and overloaded central midfield aint the only way to if you wanna defend yourself. : )

But enough of that already, I'll try giving you a better reply this time.

Remember this is a game, sometimes things doesn't work exactly the way they logically should. Taking control over your reserve team gives you lots of advantages here. Try to tweak the player instructions and look for even the slightest change in the players behaviour and make notes! Unfortunately all my notes are in Norwegian, so I'd most likely be banned if i post them here and you wouldn't understand them anyway so I'll give a short explanation on how I make them.

Occasionally during the season, when I feel like it and got bored of the normal way of playing, I take control over the reserve team, and on the reserve-match day I save my game, clear all the A-team players from the team selection and use them for the reserve-match. Using the same tactics and formation as with my A-team I play the match, I watch the entire game with only a small speed-boost and take notes on what players do in different situations, how they position themselves, defensive line in relation to the midfielders.. basically anything! (In one match I usually get 100+ notes in my notepad)

After the game, I just reload my previous save game from before that match. Now run the match again, but this time I tweak my instructions a little. Which ones depends on what aspects of the game I wanna look into. Let's say I wanna get my players to play more direct and use long cross-passes. Find suitable players you wanna knock these crossers with. Obviously you set "passing style" to "long". But is there more to this? Does "Play through ball" give better crosses? Does this make the cross a trough-ball where the winger can run after the ball instead of having to wait and be forced into a header-duel with the defender? Is it more effective to "hug the touchline", or to "cut inside" for the winger? Does the shout have anything to add to this?

To find a clear pattern most likely takes make than a couple of games. Therefore, for the effort to be worth it, you should look into different aspect of the game what should affect each other too much. (For example: Trying a higher defensive line + trying out the excitement of a sweeper keeper doesn't affect you testing out whether 1 striker and 1 OM trequista is better than 2 strikers)

The most effective thing to look into is the positioning of every player. I guess this is where it might get interesting according to what's really being discussed here. You can tweak every player's positioning at the same time and still see everything that's worth to see. I only set my fixes to a recognisable level on the slide-bars for better references. at

After watching all these games you find your notes and put them into a system. This is an example:

Aleandro Rosi

match 1 ;No tweaks: 34/43 passes, 3 interceptions, 3 tackles, played 3 crosses all directly on target, there was often much space between rosi and CDs.

match 2 ;tweaks:passingstyle;Long crossball;often 22/34 passes, 2 itnscpt, 4tckl, played 7 crosses - 5 directly on target - 2 in front, was laying close to CDs

match 3 ; tweaks:passingstyle;long crossball;often Throughballs;often 30/33 passes, 1 inscpt, 2 tcks, played 4 crosses - 1 directly on target 3 in front of, much space to CD

match 4 ;tweaks:Wide Play;move into channels 24/30 passes, 5 inscpt, 5 tckls, player 2 crossers both on dir on tar, was laying close to CDs while also having full ctrol on the rightback.

repeat 1-4 as many times as you'd like until you're satisfied : )

Make assumptions based on this and use if for your own best. Maybe you will find a solution to your issues this way?

some people asked me why I had to use the reserve team for this. the simple answer to that is when I first did this with the senior-team, I suddenly beat West Ham 9-0 in the PL and felt like I had to save the game... so it's from preventing myself to take such advantages again:)

This is a freedom I'm taking because of the fact that I'm not able to see how things are going on the training-ground. Some might call it unfair and cheating, would you?

and btw if you find this to be to goddamn boring, i often find that a joint or two during the process makes it a bit funnier : )

good luck

merry christmas. enjoy it.

vanjari thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, it's nice to see you're enjoying the game. you missed the point a little, we're not looking for a recepie to win or anything like that. the point is that both AI and human teams are affected by poor defending, AI probably a lot more, since human can find a way to work out problems. it's about ME code.

Again, the defending is awful because the ME isn't designed to handle multiple defenders paying attention to what one attacker does. It is mano-y-mano all the way, and until team defending and the stuff I mentioned in post #20 and which is suggested in other threads is coded into the game, no amount of complaining will do you any good. The game is what it is and if you are intent on playing it I suggest doing so. The fact that I and many others have excellent defending should give you a hint that it is quite possible to fix whatever tactical problem you have - unfortunately you won't listen to what anyone has to say so I don't know why I bother reading this thread...

you must be joking, have I ever said I'm complaining because I can't get my team to perform? have I asked for a tactical tip, why do you think someone is complaining because he's not succesfull!?

it's AI teams that suffer from poor defending: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/12005667.jpg/

here's league standings: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/92301620.jpg/

my games look something like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/38/25232406.jpg/

against Atletico who are a really decent team, their first shot was in 83rd minute: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/52089343.jpg/

I think it's quite clear what I'm saying.

Again, the defending is awful because the ME isn't designed to handle multiple defenders paying attention to what one attacker does. It is mano-y-mano all the way, and until team defending and the stuff I mentioned in post #20 and which is suggested in other threads is coded into the game, no amount of complaining will do you any good.

so until they don't implement the stuff you mentioned in your post defending will be awful? what you're suggesting is to have more control, which I agree partly but the problem will still be the same no metter how much control we have.

if there weren't 20 pages in FM12 TOO EASY thread, believe me, the whole morale thing wouldn't be touched. that's why these forums are for and SI are willing to hear if you speak loud enough and well constructed stuff. I guess you weren't around these forums let's say 3,4,5 years ago, when people's posts were much more constructive and critical than now. lots of stuff in FM came from these boards. now, I'm almost scared of reactions like yours when I post. there's no need to tell people what to do or jump on them, especially if you're totally missing the point.

vanjari thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, it's nice to see you're enjoying the game. you missed the point a little, we're not looking for a recepie to win or anything like that. the point is that both AI and human teams are affected by poor defending, AI probably a lot more, since human can find a way to work out problems. it's about ME code.

Ah, okey. Well, I think my defending is getting really good now. It copes great with the AI-opponent and the only time I've conceded more than 3 goals in a game was in FA-Cup 3rd round when my Dover Athletics guys were forced to face Man City at Etihad. Little by little I'm finding out new things on how to set instructions, little by little I find out which role the players suits best.

I do agree that the AI's defence is struggling and that the game is maybe a bit too easy for those who have more than a basic knowledge about football-tactics and strategies. but these players is only a part of the whole costumersgroup FM has, many players are even under the age of 10! Don't you think it would ruin the game for them if they had to deal with a defence that performed just like a premier league side?

The only way SI could make the game enjoyable for the less experienced players was to make it a bit easier to attack. At least there will be goals, and not 38 0-0 games during the PL-season: )

Would "fixing the ME-code" make player instructions, defensive line etc less important as the players know better how to defend them, or would it make it even more important? I'm not sure:) But all I know is that FM is just a game, and yes, maybe far too easy for people with very high footballing knowledge, but for me and the rest of the newbies who just wanna think we could win the Champions League if only Man Utd gave us the chance to be their manager, it quite enjoyable. Remember it's just a game and not a mirror image of real football, it's far less complicated than that!

you're right in many things. why I think defending needs imporvement is that now attacking and defending parts of ME is quite unbalanced. attacking part is on decent level to be fair. as I have shown in my screanshots, there are some basic defensive isues, like wingers tracking back, that shouldn't be hard to fix and would contribute to defensive stability of AI. I don't think it should make the game any harder, just more realistic, since it affects both AI and human players.

but I agree that have a hard task to satisfy people who want an easy game and those who want realistic fooball simulation. maybe having FMHendheld for PC (easy version of FM) wouldn't be a bad idea?

Again, the defending is awful because the ME isn't designed to handle multiple defenders paying attention to what one attacker does. It is mano-y-mano all the way, and until team defending and the stuff I mentioned in post #20 and which is suggested in other threads is coded into the game, no amount of complaining will do you any good. The game is what it is and if you are intent on playing it I suggest doing so. The fact that I and many others have excellent defending should give you a hint that it is quite possible to fix whatever tactical problem you have - unfortunately you won't listen to what anyone has to say so I don't know why I bother reading this thread...

have you ever tried to play a 4411 or a 4231 formation, where you dont have 5 midfielders in the centre of the midfield, but much more only 2+1??? have you??? come on, create a 4231deep, play with a team like everton, villarreal, win the league or show me you gread solid defence and I will apoligize for being such a donkey. you wont have success. as in the previous FMs. the ME does favour narrow tactics. you can easily have success with 41212,4312,352 and other systems, because the centre is overloaded and as the flanks, where these systems are vulnerable, doesnt really offer any danger, since wingers, especially crosses are just awful, you wont really face any danger. what were talking about is, that it isnt possible to get a solid defence with these modern formations like 4231, 4411, because the wingers, AMCs and also CMs dont work defensively the way, as they do irl in order to keep balance and to keep the defence solid. just look at teams like everton, who arent the best teams in their leagues, but also do pretty well against the top teams, at least defensively. theyre also playing 4411, so why shouldnt these kind of formations do offer you defensive strenghts???

They do work El Magico, but you have to use hand set man marking settings.

This is my formation

RB--CB--CB--LB

-----DM

--MCR--MCL

-IF---------IF

------ST-----

And you know what, all three front men defend, depending on their capabilities of course, you can't expect a player with 5 positioning and 7 marking to stick to his opponent the entire game. But individual man marking gets you an organized defensive system which squeezes the life out of most formations.

Yes it takes time to do these settings nearly every match (I don't use them against formations where I outnumber their central midfield), but it gets me a magnificent reward, which is a solid defensive organization.

If you'd like I could go into detail a bit more.

but I agree that have a hard task to satisfy people who want an easy game and those who want realistic fooball simulation. maybe having FMHendheld for PC (easy version of FM) wouldn't be a bad idea?

Oh nice! I thought of making a "difficulty setting" in FM, but figured this would only ruin the very nice community we have where everyone can share their tactics, compare results, make challenges etc. Getting that handheld version available for PC would be hell a a lot better. Then they can make the PC version more realistic, harder and more fun for the advanced players. And a better platform for players like me to be learning something that is corresponding even more nicely with real life football! Maybe in 2014? : )

They do work El Magico, but you have to use hand set man marking settings.

This is my formation

RB--CB--CB--LB

-----DM

--MCR--MCL

-IF---------IF

------ST-----

And you know what, all three front men defend, depending on their capabilities of course, you can't expect a player with 5 positioning and 7 marking to stick to his opponent the entire game. But individual man marking gets you an organized defensive system which squeezes the life out of most formations.

Yes it takes time to do these settings nearly every match (I don't use them against formations where I outnumber their central midfield), but it gets me a magnificent reward, which is a solid defensive organization.

If you'd like I could go into detail a bit more.

Unfortunately AI managers don't use man marking specific instruction to counter this issue as far as I know! It's the same reason why AI teams can not transform 4-3-2-1, 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 into 4-5-1 when defending. So by using it you are basically exploiting ME or more precisely said you have an unfair advantage.

have you ever tried to play a 4411 or a 4231 formation, where you dont have 5 midfielders in the centre of the midfield, but much more only 2+1??? have you??? come on, create a 4231deep, play with a team like everton, villarreal, win the league or show me you gread solid defence and I will apoligize for being such a donkey. you wont have success. as in the previous FMs. the ME does favour narrow tactics. you can easily have success with 41212,4312,352 and other systems, because the centre is overloaded and as the flanks, where these systems are vulnerable, doesnt really offer any danger, since wingers, especially crosses are just awful, you wont really face any danger. what were talking about is, that it isnt possible to get a solid defence with these modern formations like 4231, 4411, because the wingers, AMCs and also CMs dont work defensively the way, as they do irl in order to keep balance and to keep the defence solid. just look at teams like everton, who arent the best teams in their leagues, but also do pretty well against the top teams, at least defensively. theyre also playing 4411, so why shouldnt these kind of formations do offer you defensive strenghts???

el_magico89 , have you tried not using the players in OM-positions , but rather CM with mentality set to very offensive? Haven't tried this out, but maybe this gives you a more player that acts more like a real-life Offensive Midfielder? : ) Football-formation isn't purely decided on what position he's starting in, but is decided upon what instructions you set aswell! If you look at the charts on ex. www.zonalmarking.net , you might see that a flat midfield in the starting-line up is hardly ever flat because of the different instructions they're given. Just a thought.. would be fun to hear if you've tested it.

edit:

I know that the AI don't do this, and that this thread is focusing on the defending in general, but that post of yours I was quoting to seemed to be very specific about the human-players tactics:)

Unfortunately AI managers don't use man marking specific instruction to counter this issue as far as I know! It's the same reason why AI teams can not transform 4-3-2-1, 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 into 4-5-1 when defending. So by using it you are basically exploiting ME or more precisely said you have an unfair advantage.

Yeah I think you're right, I see a lot of managers use man marking, but not specific man marking. I'd still like to get an official response by SI on that as I might be wrong, but despite the man marking sometimes the gap in quality is too great to overcome.

Either way it helps me create the defensive system I want to see out there. I can turn my 4-3-3 into a 4-5-1, 5-4-1 or 4-6-0 with specific man marking and although you're probably right about it being an exploit it still shows that we human managers have all the tools to create a potent offensive and defensive system.

The AI however could use a lot more work.

how many teams you see employing specific man marking these days? not only it's an exploit, it's unrealistic, especially for wingers.

That's nonsense, if anything these days every player is expected to do his job in defence. Not always man marking, but a large portion is. Here's an example..

I live in Holland where most teams play a 4-3-3 formation and most teams also have upcoming/overlapping full/wingbacks. The winger's job when the opponent has possession is to stick with the upcoming fullback at all costs. Otherwise his team would constantly get overloaded in their own half with a 2 on 1 on the wings.

On FM leaving the normal settings isn't enough to recreate that effect and so teams get overloaded as the OP states. Specific man marking prevents that to a large extent, just like in real life.

The only issue here might be that the AI doesn't use the same tools.

have you ever tried to play a 4411 or a 4231 formation, where you dont have 5 midfielders in the centre of the midfield, but much more only 2+1??? have you??? come on, create a 4231deep, play with a team like everton, villarreal, win the league or show me you gread solid defence and I will apoligize for being such a donkey. you wont have success. as in the previous FMs. the ME does favour narrow tactics. you can easily have success with 41212,4312,352 and other systems, because the centre is overloaded and as the flanks, where these systems are vulnerable, doesnt really offer any danger, since wingers, especially crosses are just awful, you wont really face any danger. what were talking about is, that it isnt possible to get a solid defence with these modern formations like 4231, 4411, because the wingers, AMCs and also CMs dont work defensively the way, as they do irl in order to keep balance and to keep the defence solid. just look at teams like everton, who arent the best teams in their leagues, but also do pretty well against the top teams, at least defensively. theyre also playing 4411, so why shouldnt these kind of formations do offer you defensive strenghts???

The tactic I have played the most is a wide 4-2-4, so it has only two midfielders (defensive ones). I call it Six-Four because it plays like it has 6 defenders and 4 attackers - so in a sense it doesn't even have midfielders. The wingers in this tactic are devastating to any defense if they are creative enough. They don't work much home, though, and yes crosses are awful in the game unless they go to the far post to the other winger. Then they're really dangerous.

I am quite convinced I could make a 4-4-1-1 tactic work both in offense and defense. I have seen 4-1-2-2-1 and 4-2-3-1 tactics that are very solid defensively (i.e a variation of the abovementioned 4-2-4 tactic where one of the strikers was moved to AMC position and a playmaker role) so what you say is completely wrong.

As you say, this isn't about success or failure, but about how the ME displays good attacking but not good defending. The only times you see good defensive play is when there is a break-away. The reason for this is that there are limited amounts of highlight variations and most of those limitations are to highlights showing good defense - they simply don't exist!

That's nonsense, if anything these days every player is expected to do his job in defence. Not always man marking, but a large portion is. Here's an example..

I live in Holland where most teams play a 4-3-3 formation and most teams also have upcoming full/wingbacks. The winger's job when the opponent has possession is to stick with the upcoming fullback at all costs. Otherwise his team would constantly get overloaded in their own half.

On FM leaving the normal settings isn't enough to recreate that effect and so teams get overloaded as the OP states. Specific man marking prevents that to a large extent, just like in real life.

I think the same could be said about zonal defence, you cover and track players in your zone. wingers mostly cover full-backs, or any other player that is in his zone, as that is their defensive job. specific man marking is almost gone from football.

The tactic I have played the most is a wide 4-2-4, so it has only two midfielders (defensive ones). I call it Six-Four because it plays like it has 6 defenders and 4 attackers - so in a sense it doesn't even have midfielders. The wingers in this tactic are devastating to any defense if they are creative enough. They don't work much home, though, and yes crosses are awful in the game unless they go to the far post to the other winger. Then they're really dangerous.

I am quite convinced I could make a 4-4-1-1 tactic work both in offense and defense. I have seen 4-1-2-2-1 and 4-2-3-1 tactics that are very solid defensively (i.e a variation of the abovementioned 4-2-4 tactic where one of the strikers was moved to AMC position and a playmaker role) so what you say is completely wrong.

As you say, this isn't about success or failure, but about how the ME displays good attacking but not good defending. The only times you see good defensive play is when there is a break-away. The reason for this is that there are limited amounts of highlight variations and most of those limitations are to highlights showing good defense - they simply don't exist!

This seems very similar to my Man Utd formation.

pic here

I've had much success with this, winning PL 3 times in 4 seasons. 2 CL-titles, 1 FA cup, 1 Carling Cup and the Club world cup. However, the ManUtd-squad is so strong that it allows the use nearly any offensive formations. I think you'll fail miserably if you try this formation with let's say Everton the first season you're at the club as you'll be outnumbered in the midfield.

I agree that loading the central midfield with as many players as possible will give you control in almost any game against similar reputation teams. The Spaletti 4-6-0 works very great if you're managing a mid-table team in any league.

how many teams you see employing specific man marking these days? not only it's an exploit, it's unrealistic, especially for wingers.

It's merely a workaround that allows you to force offensively positioned players with attacking mentality to defend. It's not good alternative to formation transformation but it's the best you can do at the moment if your basic formation is offensive (as 4-2-3-1). If your starting formation is more defensive (as 4-5-1) it's much easier to force transformation trough usage of forward runs and mentality settings.

This seems very similar to my Man Utd formation.

pic here

I've had much success with this, winning PL 3 times in 4 seasons. 2 CL-titles, 1 FA cup, 1 Carling Cup and the Club world cup. However, the ManUtd-squad is so strong that it allows the use nearly any offensive formations. I think you'll fail miserably if you try this formation with let's say Everton the first season you're at the club as you'll be outnumbered in the midfield.

I agree that loading the central midfield with as many players as possible will give you control in almost any game against similar reputation teams. The Spaletti 4-6-0 works very great if you're managing a mid-table team in any league.

I have tried my tactic in dozens of different clubs at both low and high levels, and it doesn't fail because midfield domination is irrelevant. Narrow tactics are good because the most dangerous places from which one can shoot at goal is right in front of it, and thus that's the place you must defend. In theory, the best possible tactic would be 3-2-0-2-3 as it would both defend and attack excellently because of this. At the same time, you don't need narrow formations to defend and attack efficiently in just the same way as those narrow formations you mention does - which is what I have done.

I was doing pretty well but in three games since the patch I have lost 2 and drawn one. The draw was bizarre. Two up and strolling it and then with 20 minutes to go with their only two chances of the game my centre backs turn their backs on the striker who runs straight through the middle of them and bang 2-2!!!

Another goal in another game was a cross that hit my centre back on the back of the head (he was looking the other way!), it dropped at the feet of my other centre back who was obviously trying the offside trap even though everyone was in the area. He just ran forward towards the edge of the area and left the ball sitting there for their striker to score!

Before the patch defending wasn't good but it's awful to be fair now. Rarely see tackles, midfielders jogging back if you are lucky, defenders not tracking strikers, my strikers who are on high closing down just meandering about!!! Seems only way you can keep a clean sheet is to either not allow the opposition in you half or play one of these narrow formations that you really wouldn't use in real life!!!

It's merely a workaround that allows you to force offensively positioned players with attacking mentality to defend. It's not good alternative to formation transformation but it's the best you can do at the moment if your basic formation is offensive (as 4-2-3-1). If your starting formation is more defensive (as 4-5-1) it's much easier to force transformation trough usage of forward runs and mentality settings.

yes it's the only solution at the moment, but quite unrealistic one and also a big exploit. since AI won't do the same, it's too much of advantage for my liking. imo this issue is ruing the game in La Liga for example, where most (AI) teams are playing 433 or 4231. it's too easy to overachieve massivly in such situation.