Match Engine - closing down, width, no arrows

I've watch 5 matches in full on the demo now and played around with the sliders throughout in an attempt to get various fairly basic football tactics to work, but to no avail. I want to talk about closing down (which I think is a bug) and then width/no arrows (which I think needs a major overhaul).

1. Closing down

My aim was to apply maximum pressure all over the pitch, against poor opposition to win the ball back quickly or force them to hoof it upfield in a rush. So...

I set closing down to maximum for all players. The problem is they simply do not properly pressure the opposition in their own half. I play 4-4-1-1. My wide midfielders won't push up onto the opposition full backs until they advance a certain distance up the pitch. So they can just knock it around the back line with no pressure for pretty much as long as they like. The only way I can seem to improve this is through pushing the wide players up to and AM role.

I'm guessing that pressing is based on zones from what I've seen so far. The problem is I don't want to stick my wide players up into AM roles as it would make them less useful should the fullback decide to overlap. They would leave the AMs zone and create a 2 on 1 against my fullback. By sticking with an RM this overlapping run should be covered.

The pressing on the SC is also pretty useless. What he should be doing in a lone striker role is working the entire back line but instead he stays central and also gives the FB a ton of time. Again making me think that the zones are too rigidly applied for the most forward players when in the opposition half.

It leads to silly situations where the opposition have a load of pressure free deep possession and there doesn't seem to be anything you can do to prevent it.

2. Width

This in my eyes is a far bigger problem. One of the basic ideas in football is to defend narrow to deny space and then spread out to create space when attacking. The problem is that FM only has one width slider for width. So for example, if I decide to attack with a lot of width (slider to the right) then it means that my team remains spread out when the opposition get the ball. This is insane. No-one would defend like this in real life as it gives the opposition massive amounts of space to defend. If a switch ball is hit then the defending team can use ball travelling time to close down the wide player who has just received the ball. He doesn't need to stand next to him when the ball is on the other side of the pitch. (See the amount of apparent space Liverpool gave Bosingwa v Chelsea but how he was closed down soon after a swtich ball was hit).

In my latest game my winger - on the other side of the pitch to the ball - was consistently nearer to the touchline than their wide player. I guess they must have been playing narrow?!? But either way this is crazy. My team should be tightening up space when they don't have the ball, not remaining spread out.

Could this be solved with two sliders: attacking width and defensive width? Or even more simple, just make them defend properly (i.e. narrower) and just use the width just for attacking plays.

3. No arrows

Now this has been covered a lot already so I'll try to be brief. The fact that you have to attack and defend with the same formation is also crazy. Almost all teams defend with two banks of 4. So 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2. But when they get the ball their shape changes. Sometimes the wide players hug the touchline (Pennant), sometimes they get tuck in (Benayoun), maybe cut inside (Babel) or get themselves into the box a lot (Ljungberg). Now someone is going to say this is player dependent so it's covered by PPM. To a small extent they are right, but take Beckham as another example. Sometimes he hugs the touchline, and sometimes he comes inside to look for the ball. And in my eyes this isn't a free role. It's a tactical decision my the manager to leave the defensive shape when you have the ball and look to hurt the opposition from a different part of the pitch.

I've read that options to mimic the diagonal and side arrows will be added back into the game at some point but I think removing them to prevent cheat tactics without replacing them was a major, major error as it significantly reduces your tactical options. And I think something needs to be done sooner rather than later to fix this.

4. FB width vs Wide player width

In my eyes this is another major problem. I'll provide an example. If you want your full backs to provide width, as all the good sides now do, then your only option is to set the width slider high. This however forces your LM and RM to hug the touchline too. You have no option here if you want to play 4-4-? and set up in a defensively solid way.

Width/arrows conclusion

So you end up with a choice. Set up solid defensively and restrict your attacking options. Or set up with an attacking formation and leave yourself open defensively. The lack of arrows/use of the width slider simply don't let you build anything but very basic tactics. Which in my eyes is a big step backwards from FM08.

Suggestion

I think this could be solved by adding an additional slider based on player position e.g.

Striker

Position: drift out wide ----- work the channels ----- stay in the box

Wide players

Position: hug touchline ---- mixed ---- drift inside

So if you went or high forward runs and drift inside you would see a lot of runs into the box. Few forward runs and drift inside something more like the Zidane role. etc. etc.

exellant post mate!

we've been telling these things for soooo long now..but probably it's just our tatcics.

I totally agree with your whole post but mostly the arrows. Terrible idea to restrict them to one place forward or back.

Closing down is defiantly weird in Fm09. A Lone striker never close down the flanks(fullbacks) - this is wrong!

Same situation with central AMC's who rarely closedown on the sides - its a big match engine error !

Does your striker have a low work rate? If he's a lazy arse like Zlatan that could explain it. If he's Henrik Larsson in disguise then I would say it's a problem with the tactics engine being a bit restrictive.

1. Set Tight Marking in the team settings. Your players are starting too far away from the opposition, which makes the decision to close down much harder, hence they stay in a more defensive position rather than risk being drawn out and the ball played in behind. Like real football, you have to get tighter in the first place. You should also check your defensive line - too deep and you leave a lot of space for the opposition to play in, meaning that the midfield never quite catch up with play. Hard tackling will make them charge in more if you want to harry the opposition more.

2. Width is a tricky one and ends up being something of a compromise. It would be nice to see this looked at in the next version. Individual width is something I would like to see.

3. There is something lost here, but I think we have gained so much more. The forward runs and mentality are far, far more effective and to me that is more important than changing the shape of the team from defence to attack. To a limited extent, with careful observation of the players and tweaking of mentalities you can get a similar effect. Hopefully though, some sort of defence/attack formation will be possible next year - just with some sort of control over more extreme settings.

4. I am finding that if you set the mentality a little higher and turn on forward runs the full backs provide plenty of width and get beyond the wingers quite often. It is vastly improved on previous versions. Johnson and Belhadj seem to be playing very much like their real life counterparts. I think you have the right idea, but the wrong solution.

I have just posted in another post that I thought the closing down would be an issue but I hadnt experimented enough to comment.

I agree with your comments about zones, it looks like that is how the A1 determines who pressures the ball. Maybe they had a problem with more than one player closing down the ball and probably looked like a playground match with 20 players chasing one ball.

I do think your being very unrealistic in expecting a lone striker to chase the ball around between five players (backline & Keeper). This never happens in real life the player would be naked after 15mins, if anything a lone striker would be encouraged to reserve his energy. If you want to press the backline you will need to have wingers or AM or at least 2 upfront.

1. Set Tight Marking in the team settings. Your players are starting too far away from the opposition, which makes the decision to close down much harder, hence they stay in a more defensive position rather than risk being drawn out and the ball played in behind. Like real football, you have to get tighter in the first place. You should also check your defensive line - too deep and you leave a lot of space for the opposition to play in, meaning that the midfield never quite catch up with play. Hard tackling will make them charge in more if you want to harry the opposition more.

2. Width is a tricky one and ends up being something of a compromise. It would be nice to see this looked at in the next version. Individual width is something I would like to see.

3. There is something lost here, but I think we have gained so much more. The forward runs and mentality are far, far more effective and to me that is more important than changing the shape of the team from defence to attack. To a limited extent, with careful observation of the players and tweaking of mentalities you can get a similar effect. Hopefully though, some sort of defence/attack formation will be possible next year - just with some sort of control over more extreme settings.

4. I am finding that if you set the mentality a little higher and turn on forward runs the full backs provide plenty of width and get beyond the wingers quite often. It is vastly improved on previous versions. Johnson and Belhadj seem to be playing very much like their real life counterparts. I think you have the right idea, but the wrong solution.

Good post I agree with you. Loving the overlaping FB's, quality! For the first time I have been able to apply more of an Arsenal style of play (and thats not throwing away a 2 goal lead )

1. Set Tight Marking in the team settings. Your players are starting too far away from the opposition, which makes the decision to close down much harder, hence they stay in a more defensive position rather than risk being drawn out and the ball played in behind. Like real football, you have to get tighter in the first place. You should also check your defensive line - too deep and you leave a lot of space for the opposition to play in, meaning that the midfield never quite catch up with play. Hard tackling will make them charge in more if you want to harry the opposition more.

I'm not after tight marking. Just that they close down players all over the pitch as the instruction applies. I have a high line set as you suggest. What I've done is switched to DMR and AMR and they close down much more like you would expect. The problem is when the full back decides to overlap the AMR then lets him run past (once he is out of his zone) creating and overload situation on my full back. So unless I watch and micro manage the entire game (which very few people do) I'm left with a dilema. The players should be intelligent enough to press high and also not let their man run past them if they overlap. I don't want to man mark as this defeats zonal defence, where my wide midfielder may need to pick up someone who drifts wide into their zone at other points of the game for example.

Hard tackling shouldn't effect harrying. Just what the player does when he close enough to make a tackle. Not get him in the position to tackle in the first place.

4. I am finding that if you set the mentality a little higher and turn on forward runs the full backs provide plenty of width and get beyond the wingers quite often. It is vastly improved on previous versions. Johnson and Belhadj seem to be playing very much like their real life counterparts. I think you have the right idea, but the wrong solution.

This is a good point. The overlapping full backs are far more effective in this version.

I do think your being very unrealistic in expecting a lone striker to chase the ball around between five players (backline & Keeper). This never happens in real life the player would be naked after 15mins, if anything a lone striker would be encouraged to reserve his energy. If you want to press the backline you will need to have wingers or AM or at least 2 upfront.

I was using Torres and Babel. Workrate of 18 and 15. The problem was they just stood in the center. When their instruction was to close down over the entire pitch. Now I understand they may get knackered if they chased from side to side constantly but they should at least make an effort to drift across to the side of the pitch where the ball is and close off some passing lanes.

And if my lone striker knackers himself out, then it's my own stupid fault for such a tactic.

Agree with this post completely, the width section needs a complete overhaul, in 08 I played a narrow formation but with the use of arrows my players were set to get wide when in possession. However on this version the players are only allowed to move one position and that is backwards and forwards.

This is a disaster seeing as my favourite formation had my two CM's with arrows to the striker, and my wingers had arrows to the AMC position. However in this version I am not going to be allowed to do this.

A major rethink is needed on the tactics and I hope SI sort this out and put it in the patch on release day.

I was using Torres and Babel. Workrate of 18 and 15. The problem was they just stood in the center. When their instruction was to close down over the entire pitch. Now I understand they may get knackered if they chased from side to side constantly but they should at least make an effort to drift across to the side of the pitch where the ball is and close off some passing lanes.

And if my lone striker knackers himself out, then it's my own stupid fault for such a tactic.

I agree with its your/our game and they should do whatever we tell them to do but on the other hand you would get people who say "Torres is knackered after 15 mins and then gets injured after 20 mins the game is stupid".

And as I said I do think there is a problem with the closing down maybe for the reasons I said above or maybe something else. SI will need to answer what problems they had in getting this to work.

Just trying to be objective mate.

Agree with this post completely, the width section needs a complete overhaul, in 08 I played a narrow formation but with the use of arrows my players were set to get wide when in possession. However on this version the players are only allowed to move one position and that is backwards and forwards.

This is a disaster seeing as my favourite formation had my two CM's with arrows to the striker, and my wingers had arrows to the AMC position. However in this version I am not going to be allowed to do this.

A major rethink is needed on the tactics and I hope SI sort this out and put it in the patch on release day.

I think they have tried to get round this by improving the preffered moves ie Wingers who "like's to cut inside" whether this is the case remains to be seen, by me anyway (not enough game time).

Personally my old 08 tactics included alot of Barrows and Farrows and Sarrows but away with the old and in with the new.

I agree with its your/our game and they should do whatever we tell them to do but on the other hand you would get people who say "Torres is knackered after 15 mins and then gets injured after 20 mins the game is stupid".

And as I said I do think there is a problem with the closing down maybe for the reasons I said above or maybe something else. SI will need to answer what problems they had in getting this to work.

Just trying to be objective mate.

Was just responding to your work rate point mate really. Just a touch annoyed with the ME, not your comments/suggestions to fix various problems. As you say, will be interesting to get some comment from SI on this. Closing down should be fixable. Width/runs is probably a lot harder to effectively solve. I can see why arrows were removed. I just think a solution should have been in place before they did so.

Does your striker have a low work rate? If he's a lazy arse like Zlatan that could explain it. If he's Henrik Larsson in disguise then I would say it's a problem with the tactics engine being a bit restrictive.

I manage AC Milan, and it doesnt matter if its Sheva with 18 workrate, pato 13 or Inzaghi 14 - they just stand in the center of the pitch , never close down the flanks.

I have just posted in another post that I thought the closing down would be an issue but I hadnt experimented enough to comment.

I agree with your comments about zones, it looks like that is how the A1 determines who pressures the ball. Maybe they had a problem with more than one player closing down the ball and probably looked like a playground match with 20 players chasing one ball.

I do think your being very unrealistic in expecting a lone striker to chase the ball around between five players (backline & Keeper). This never happens in real life the player would be naked after 15mins, if anything a lone striker would be encouraged to reserve his energy. If you want to press the backline you will need to have wingers or AM or at least 2 upfront.

lol sorry to go off topic but that is a hilariously funny spelling mistake. I Laughed out loud! I might have to send my girlfriend into a match to chase the defenders and goalie just to get her naked

You can do anything you ever did before with this ME, but you aren't going to suss it in a day or even a week.

I didn't notice opposition instructions mentioned anywhere here, they now play a much bigger part.

Player intelligence also plays a much bigger part, which means each players instructions are more relevant to other players movements.

I's a new challenge to achieve the desired results but I've found it's reasonably logical in most areas.

There will be more work on the ME, to quote Paul C, "it will never really be finished"

I think the tactics forum will be well populated for this version and that can't be a bad thing.

lol sorry to go off topic but that is a hilariously funny spelling mistake. I Laughed out loud! I might have to send my girlfriend into a match to chase the defenders and goalie just to get her naked

Taking stick off a Spurs fan, not the first time this week . I guess I got sex on the brain or something. Lol.

I'm not after tight marking. Just that they close down players all over the pitch as the instruction applies. I have a high line set as you suggest. What I've done is switched to DMR and AMR and they close down much more like you would expect. The problem is when the full back decides to overlap the AMR then lets him run past (once he is out of his zone) creating and overload situation on my full back. So unless I watch and micro manage the entire game (which very few people do) I'm left with a dilema. The players should be intelligent enough to press high and also not let their man run past them if they overlap. I don't want to man mark as this defeats zonal defence, where my wide midfielder may need to pick up someone who drifts wide into their zone at other points of the game for example.

Hard tackling shouldn't effect harrying. Just what the player does when he close enough to make a tackle. Not get him in the position to tackle in the first place.

Hard tackling increases the likelihood of them going in, as well as how forceful they go in. I've been using it for the last two versions when I have had needed to put more pressure on and trust me it does have the effect of harrying the opposition.

Tight marking can be applied to zonal marking without turning it into man marking- they will only pick up the man that comes into their zone and not follow him to the ends of the earth. Why wait to close them down, why not get close to them straight away? In fact the closing down instruction is more likely to encourage the player to leave his zone than tight marking is. Tight marking does not force you to man mark it just makes the players more aware of their position. Again, I have been trying this and it does work.

I just want to pick up on one more point...

The players should be intelligent enough to press high and also not let their man run past them if they overlap.

If the opponent is overlapping then that implies he has entered another player's zone. What you are asking cannot be done with zonal marking. If you want the full backs and wide mids to work together to pick up the correct player then you have to man mark.

Hard tackling increases the likelihood of them going in, as well as how forceful they go in. I've been using it for the last two versions when I have had needed to put more pressure on and trust me it does have the effect of harrying the opposition.

But I don't actually want him to tackle, just apply pressure. I only want him to make a tackle if there is a high % chance of winning the ball. (This is all tackling strength does I believe. High makes the tackle at a lower % chance of success. i.e. They tackle more.) This is what good sides do in real life and it forces mistakes without giving away free kicks/bookings.

Tight marking can be applied to zonal marking without turning it into man marking- they will only pick up the man that comes into their zone and not follow him to the ends of the earth. Why wait to close them down, why not get close to them straight away? In fact the closing down instruction is more likely to encourage the player to leave his zone than tight marking is. Tight marking does not force you to man mark it just makes the players more aware of their position. Again, I have been trying this and it does work.

Just given this a go. What this seems to do is get the wide midfielder to get close to a man in his zone then stick on him. Not necessarily pick up the pick up the correct man. e.g. Ball goes to their FB so my wide mid gets close on the full back. He then passes inside and my wide mid sticks on the opposition FB rather than dropping off into a useful zonal position and closing down whoever becomes dangerous as the rest of the move develops. This leaves him badly out of position with a lot of space in behind him.

If the opponent is overlapping then that implies he has entered another player's zone. What you are asking cannot be done with zonal marking. If you want the full backs and wide mids to work together to pick up the correct player then you have to man mark.

The problem here is with the definition of zones. One of the key things you cannot do as a wide midfielder when playing a zonal marking system is let an overlapping FB run past you. You have to track him and help out your own FB. You also have to double up on opposition wingers when they are in the final third. This is basic zonal defending and should be covered by a zonal marking scheme.

I'd say the ME does this quite well if you play a DR and an MR. The problem comes when you also want to press high up the pitch too as the ME means you have to play as a AMR and press high or and MR and defend normally. You can't do both.

The system I'm describing is the zonal marking system Liverpool use with Kuyt and Arbeloa. The engine is close. I just think it needs some tweaking to sort this out.

I think the problem is the balance between the pressing slider and the zonal system. At present the zonal system takes too much effect when the ball is in the opposition third.

I agree that player instructions should be a lot more detailed and not tweaked sets from Team instructions. Specific instructions that either complement or try to reign in their preferred moves. I don't like sliders, and probably won't until I get some proper information on how each position on the slider is different.

I agree with you, I also hate this new player runs idea, why make things simple in one area that matters when over complicating un impotaint things.

Superman Cape - I won't quote the whole post as it starts getting a bit messy.

I see where you are coming from on the hard tackling. It can work if you want to get possesion back quickly (i.e. when chasing the game) but not if you just want to push the opposition back up the pitch for the duration of the match. It affects pressing, but perhaps not in the way you want, which is fair enough.

Regarding the tight marking/zonal marking issue, obviously it is working for my setup/expectations, but only doing half of the job you want, which is a shame. I would say that what you are after with the DR and MR should be independant of zonal or man marking systems and should be a seperate instruction of its own - e.g. 'Double up on wide players' in team settings or 'Double up on this player' in opposition instructions. The trade off is then that the MR has to work a lot harder, so won't work so well with some players with low work rate or stamina and probably some mental stats.

Pressing higher up the pitch does make it difficult to maintain a zonal system, but I think that is true of real life too. Have you played about with closing the defenders down through opposition instructions? I'm not saying that is the answer, just curious as to whether it is possible with the right combination of settings. Again, I do think some things should have their own specific instruction and not be down to the correct combination of several settings, which may produce unwanted side effects.

Pressing higher up the pitch does make it difficult to maintain a zonal system, but I think that is true of real life too. Have you played about with closing the defenders down through opposition instructions? I'm not saying that is the answer, just curious as to whether it is possible with the right combination of settings. Again, I do think some things should have their own specific instruction and not be down to the correct combination of several settings, which may produce unwanted side effects.

Using the opposition instruction to close down the full backs 'often' is proving very useful. It makes the SC chase around the back line at times and the wide midfielders at others. Sometimes the AMC also has a go. Works quite sensibly with the zones too. So thanks whoever suggested that. I've never used them before.

This means I can stick with a 4-4-? and extreme pressing and get the desired results. The wide midfielders also track back and double up in situations where they should do. A nice tactic to use for periods of the game when I want to apply some serious pressure.

Using the opposition instruction to close down the full backs 'often' is proving very useful. It makes the SC chase around the back line at times and the wide midfielders at others. Sometimes the AMC also has a go. Works quite sensibly with the zones too. So thanks whoever suggested that. I've never used them before.

This means I can stick with a 4-4-? and extreme pressing and get the desired results. The wide midfielders also track back and double up in situations where they should do. A nice tactic to use for periods of the game when I want to apply some serious pressure.

Glad it works.

The taken out old features is what is the worst with FM09, the arrows missing and the match speed/higlight speed missing is ****ing me a bit off.

Cleansation, every other post has been good and constructive...

I actually didn't like FM08's arrows, especially when I realised what they really did. My AML, AMR were arrowed to FL, FR and that meant that they were receiving the ball in that area rather than running into it and creating themselves. Forward runs + high mentality lets you recreate runs into space pretty well.

Remember that in most cases you want your player to RUN forward, not BE forward and that is what the arrows didn't achieve.

I finally found the option, so my strikers closedown the flanks. By using the settings "close down always" on the opponets fullbacks.

Now in a 4-3-1-2 both my strikers closedown the defenders when they have the ball.

but how can we achieve that only our strikers put pressure on defenders and not midfielders. is that possibile?

but how can we achieve that only our strikers put pressure on defenders and not midfielders. is that possibile?

Yes its possible. Depends on your formation tho..with My 4-3-1-2, both strikers Closedown settings is on 20(all over the pitch). My amc on 15, and all 3 central midfielders on 10. When I set closedown always on the opponets FB's, the midfielders wait until the fullback move forward and reach the middle line - the amc begin to closedown the flanks before the central mid .

Good opening post.

- I think we need two seperate sliders for speed. One for the speed of the actual action highlight, and one that determines how fast the game skips through the uninteresting parts. I might want to move through the uninteresting parts quickly - and at the same time watch the highlights at a slower speed - now I have to adjust the one slider all the time and it seems like a step backwards.

- I absolutely agree that there should be a set of tactics/behavior options seperated into Attack/Defense - so when your team doesn't have the ball, they adopt a certain behavior, and when they do have the ball they switch into their attacking play - as they would in real life.