[deleted]

[deleted]

Wholeheartedly agree, particularly looking at the collective group (the whole being great than thesum of its parts ) rather than just the individual players which as you mention is how the game seems to work in its current guise.

As for implementation I think that would be a tough decision for SI to make as you're looking a changing one of the fundamental aspects of the game & that is a big gamble to take when dealing with a game that is reliant on its yearly repeat business.

If they get it wrong the risk is people will just stick with the previous years release & that could be the end of the brand because the guys holding the purse strings may call time on their investment.

I see exactly where you're coming from with regards to the whole 'your only as good as your last game' approach, however I'm just not sure how this can work within the frameworks of the match engine.

I see your point with Norwich entirely given that last season they were newly promoted into the Championship, so in FM11, they're squad's ability would be very reflective of that in that they'd be one of the lesser teams in the Championship, and none of their players would even remotely be considered Premiership quality. And now we have a situation of those same players in reality very much being considered Premier League quality, and I suspect FM12's attributes would reflect that. But the problem is that just because David Fox is now playing in the Premier League, it doesn't he's automatically become any better than he was when in the Championship. However he is perceived to be better as he's now proven he can hack it at that level, whereas he hadn't proven so in the past, perhaps because he never had the opportunity. But I just don't think it's viable to include a promotional ability boost for a player in FM while it bridge that gap in theory the reality just doesn't work like that, and at the end of the day, FM is trying to mimmick reality as closely as possible.

Not to mention that player attributes, and how those numbers are crunched to produce the simulated match is the cornerstone of the FM concept. Slowly and surely FM have perfected the match engine and how the attributes fit into them, as well as getting researches from all across the globe to get as accurate player attributes as possible, so I don't think they will want to change the system too soon. Also, the effects of morale, confidence, consistency and all sorts of other factors can influence how well a player will perform on a given day.

Maybe they could just keep the current system but add some new mechanics that make it more fluent and fluctuating. Players who are seen as not having enough potential or are not good enough can often "outgrow" themselves when the right situation arises (playing in the right squad at the right time and hitting a run of form etc.).

[deleted]

I like the idea, however I can see a possible problem. If the attributes reflect the league you are in, and lets say chelsea relegates, wouldn't all the chelsea players have 20 (or close to) for all the attributes when they play in the championship?

Very good idea...

awaits the dynamic pa post..

Being a fan of Football Manager/old Champ Man for years, starting back in 96/97, one characteristic of the game I feel that has pretty much remained the same is the attribute system. Players are given 'current ability' and 'potential ability'. I feel it is a too simplistic approach which discounts some players abilities to increase or decrease over time, and restricts the potential increase of others, who may in a few years, maybe a few months (in real life) see a run of good form (average rating) continue which therefore leads to changes in attributes through data updates in the game the proceeding year (e.g. the flutuation year by year in Fernando Torres' stats).

I see your point about CA and PA being way too schematic and rigid in their development, but keep in mind most of what we see from players' "fluctuations" in real life isn't down to actual improvement/drop in their attributes.

Torres is a great example because his dramatic drop in quality of performances doesn't mean he's become a worse striker than, say, Bothroyd... It's a matter of a vicious circle of poor form, lack of play, mediocre performances, loss of confidence etc...

But I'm sure in ideal conditions (ie. top form, consistent first team football, high confidence) Torres would still be as good as he used to be at his peak.

So the question is: in FM world, aren't the "mental/form" factors enough to replicate a rough patch in the career of a quality player?

Simply, what I suggest is

:A players individual attributes corresponds more with:

- individual form (average rating)

- collective team form

- team chemistry & tactics

- promotion or relegation

- mental ability e.g. confidence issues.

That's pretty much already covered by the somewhat elusive "morale" variable, isn't it?

What do you think? Is such an approach implementable? Is this more true to life?

I think it'd be impractical and would require SI to completely rewrite a huge portion of the game...

Frankly I don't think it'd be worth the effort... All we need is a more flexible CA development pattern [that, indeed, affected by form and performances]

The attribute numbers are needed for the match engine to make its calculations - but that doesn't mean those attribute numbers have to be presented to us exactly.

I'd be happy to see an option added where the attributes we see are clouded by form, but it would have to be an option.

I'm not a fan of the idea that attributes should be dependent on things like form and team chemistry... To me, a player's attribute panel should be his "CV" which represents how good a player is. Things like form and team chemistry (or indeed, the lack of it) will just affect how the player plays.

For example, a player doesn't become worse at crossing if the team chemistry is poor... It just means that the crosser and target are less likely to be on the same wavelength. Things like tackling don't become worse if the team chemistry is poor, too.

Things like team chemistry are already in-game (team advice), although I do think it can be expanded upon and made more open to users (i.e. getting email messages about the team holding a birthday party for a well-liked player on the team, or your coaches mentioning that your team is really getting to grips with the complex formation you have set, etc.), but I would prefer attributes to remain as a "base", and things like form and team chemistry to build upon that "base".

As for CA and PA, I agree for many reasons and stated in many other places (start here, long read: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/266928-Potential), although I think it's a separate point to the above.

The attribute numbers are needed for the match engine to make its calculations - but that doesn't mean those attribute numbers have to be presented to us exactly.

I'd be happy to see an option added where the attributes we see are clouded by form, but it would have to be an option.

Goog idea. I was thinking about the same and even wrote it in Wishlist thread once. I think attributes values we see in the player's profile should depend on his form, rating and, which is very important, training progress. For example, a player has Finishing 15. He trains well in this area of his game, has a good form and scores a lot of goals, so this attribute increases. For ME it increases to 16, but for us - to 18,19 or even 20. Or, another example, defender has Tackling 18. He doesn't train well, he doesn't play well and this attribute decreases. For ME it decreases to 17, but we'll see 15.