Dynamic League reputation, League ranking & Club reputation

Hi

Just sharing with the community an observation I have made. I've been managing Inter in my current save for abt 9 seasons now and I have done fairly well (well.. at least in my opinion). think I won the CL on 3 or 4 occassions (reached final abt 2 as many times) doing a Cup/league treble on abt as many occasions. I have been completely dominant in the domestic league - winning every yr. So it was a surprise to observe the italian league drop down the league rankings from 3rd to 5/6th, whilst Eng and Spain remained 1 & 2 respectively, even though they haven't been as dominant in the CL as my Inter has. But after some thought, italy's slide in the rankings can probably be explained by my sheer dominance and hence lack of competition which reduces revenue to the other italian clubs and affects their ability to compete at continental level. With the slide, comes the snow-ball effect of reduced CL placings, and a greater divide between inter and the rest of the italian clubs. All this I have come to accept, and in truth, probably reflects reality - much like how the current dutch and french leagues today except that their top teams don't win the CL like I do.

What gets my gripe is that league reputation affects club reputation, or at least that's my theory. This first got my attention when I realised players for the top 6 clubs in Eng and Spain were not interested in my club, even though Inter were treble winners (fact. thanks to mourinho) and I was continuing the legacy (unlike benitez in real life) by becoming a more dominant force in Europe. I could accept this early on in my career, while I was slowly building up Inter's rep, but an incident later on, after I have reached the Cl final 4 times in succession (wining on alternate yrs) broke the straw on the camel's back. Guardiola had left his post after taking up the Spain job after a WC. Mancini took over barca and was not doing a gd job, think they were lying ard 4/5th spot mid season. Low and behold a 28 soon to be 29 Messi is approaching the end of his contract and is rejecting contract offers from barca... The prospect of Messi on a bosman was too hard to resist! (even though I had no need for additional wingers, coincidentally I had signed Pedro on a bosman at the start of the season).

Funnily enough, only one other club expressed an interest (reflects AI's stupidity.. messi has won world player almost every yr in my save)... Arsenal. Guess what? Messi wouldn't even consider negotiating a contract with Inter, treble winners the season before for crying out loud! While Arsenal weren't even reaching the semis of CL consistently and not dominant in England either! What baffled me even more was, I was listed as a fav personal of messi's (through manager interaction). To decide to join Arsenal was one thing, but to not even consider an offer from treble winners inter lead by a manager you respected is just unrealistic! I had to find out what had put me in such a disadvantage.

So I did some tests with FMRTE. Upping my fav personal status to a full 100 did not work. Placing Inter as his fav club did not work. Then I realised Arsenal had a higher club rep than Inter. I thought it was a tad unfair, considering the success my club has had whilst Arsenal hadn't even won the CL yet or the domestic title consecutively. My only explanation would be that Arsenal's club rep was boosted since they were in the highest ranked league. Low and behold, changing Inter's club rep to match Arsenal's managed to sway Messi's mind (even w/o fav personal fav club status).

How Arsenal can be considered but my Inter the top ranked team in Europe for the last couple of years was not is just unacceptable! No way I was going to lose a shot at getting Messi on a bosman because of some flawed manner club rep is calculated!

I can not believe that this post has not got more response! The post promotes maybe the key weakness in the FM which has been mentioned several times before, both in the FM 2009 and FM 2010, and I've never read a response from SI in relation to this.

Just to emphasize this again to the TS: You'll never get a response from people who can actually do something about this problem - SI. They are fully aware of that the leak of dynamics in terms of league reputation is one of the longest knowing bugs in FM history. The reason why they do not respond to this is because they have no clue how to fix the problem.

It has been suggested earlier about creating more dynamic reputation, rather than static reputation like now, without the advice has been taken into account. Many people I know have stopped playing FM precisely on this basis. Nevertheless, SI has never shown interest to discuss openly about this issue. It's almost like admitting that they have a incompetent team who can not solve this problem. If they could only admit this at least, rather then being silent about the issue like it does not exist.

This together with the fact that the same lack of dynamics in relation to the manager's reputation (which means that if you start as manager with a low reputation or a different nationality than English you will never end up as a top manager in terms of reputation no matter how successful you are) is most likely the biggest play killers in FM.

First:

If you look at the CL the past 9 years there have been 3 Italian CL winners, another 2 finalists. So purely your reaching of the final five times only gives ground for maintaining the current rating of the Italian league. If on top of that, as you describe, the other Italian teams start performing less good in European competitions it's not more than logical that the perceived standard of the Italian league slips a bit.

Second:

Although the not-joining of Messi something might have to do with the reputation, I honestly don't know, but another factor could as well be the fact that, as you describe, he would have to compete with a another world class player in your team and he doesn't fancies that.

Third:

Your second post is borderline leaving constructive criticism and plain ranting.

the reason no-one has replied is because its so bloody long and I doubt many people would be arsed to read all of that, I've replied and still haven't read it but maybe i'm just lazy

League reputation does limit club reputation. Actually, that's all it is, a limit on club reputations.

This is an interesting case- how have other Italian sides done in the CL and Europa League? How have French and German sides (and those from any other country that has overtaken Italy) done in those competitions?

First:

If you look at the CL the past 9 years there have been 3 Italian CL winners, another 2 finalists. So purely your reaching of the final five times only gives ground for maintaining the current rating of the Italian league. If on top of that, as you describe, the other Italian teams start performing less good in European competitions it's not more than logical that the perceived standard of the Italian league slips a bit.

If that is the case wouldn't the Italian league be #1 on the DR(dynamic reputation)? If a club from a country is constantly in the CL final wouldn't that help to promote the league that club is in? I think maybe some other factors go in to the dynamic reputation listing, if the Italian league isn't growing it could be other reasons.

I am managing Inter as well and the Serie A has moved to #2 above La Liga and below the Premier League, but I'm only 6 seasons in.

5 seasons in 4 me Italy is on top of the show

League reputation does limit club reputation. Actually, that's all it is, a limit on club reputations.

That's the problem. Even if you are very successful in Europe, your league reputation will only grow slowly and thus your club reputation can only increase slowly, although you club might deserve a higher rating.

It's no problem, it's reality.

Porto won the 2003 Uefa Cup and the 2004 CL, yet that alone is no reason for Portugal to be propelled into the highest reputation leagues.

Same with the Russian/Ukrainian teams performing decently in Europe lately.

Clubs from a country has to be consistent at the top of Europe to merit a significant rise for their league's reputation, otherwise only a slow growth should be the case, just as in reality.

What can I say - I'm Lazio. Winners of the league 5 years in a row. Winners of the champions leage 5 years in a row.

The league rep won't go up. I've attracted big names to the clubs. I've signed Cristiano Ronaldo. Can't get much bigger than that.

Some screen shots

League Reps

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3250/leaguereps.jpg

Richest clubs

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7572/richest.jpg

European Champions League First knockout.

Three Italian teams. I'm the only one to progress though - maybe something to do with it?

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1760/champsleague1.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7761/champsleague2.jpg

Co Efficiencies

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9060/coef.jpg

Do you think the leauge rep should have gone up by now?

On a side note - I think every other club in the leauge has had new owners at this stage - except for me? The board constantly refuse my requests to buy or build a new stadium. Mostly citing that there isn't enough cash (see richest clubs).

The stadium has had NO IMPROVEMENTS since I took over. The board will just not budge on it. Either saying funds or that there isn't enough FAN BASE????

My successes

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2281/successes.jpg

I've even gone to the point of threatening to resign over the stadium issue and the board are happy for me to tender my resigination.

No - the reason why your league reputation hasnt gone up is that you are being let down by the other clubs in your league.

There are 3 spanish teams in the top 8, 5 englist teams in the top 15, 2 german teams in the top 15, 2 portugese teams in the top 15

So I susspect that the reputations goes England, spain and then italy, portugal and germany all around the same level.

But having looked at the league reputation page you printed it seems to me that you are lucky to be as high as you are!

Well the AI better get its finger out and start winning champ league matches and get further in the competitions

On a side note - I think every other club in the leauge has had new owners at this stage - except for me? The board constantly refuse my requests to buy or build a new stadium. Mostly citing that there isn't enough cash (see richest clubs).

The stadium has had NO IMPROVEMENTS since I took over. The board will just not budge on it. Either saying funds or that there isn't enough FAN BASE????

Why do you need a new stadium?

Olimpico in Rome has over 70k capacity and is probably in (very) good condition. That should be enough even for a top team. Surely your board see no reason to build a new one. I guess they are right too.

I'm Lazio. I'm Champions of the League many times. I'm Champions league winners many times.

I'm currently renting the stadium @ 1.5m a year

The capacity is 72,698.

I've asked them to BUY and to BUILD and they never will. All I want is something to happen with the Stadium. But I just keep getting knocked back each time.

It's not really a big deal. But I have got the best team in the World. Just thought buying or building a new stadium would be nice. I@m going to keep going with it. I'll keep asking. No harm in asking.

To clarify - the issue isn't that they won't. The issue is with the reasoning they give. They alwasy say "not enough funds" or "not enough fans"

Which isn't true.

Do you have in excess of £500million in the bank?

Could you regularly fill a 100,000 seater stadium?

Yes... yes I do and yes I can.

Yes... yes I do and yes I can.

Whats your teams average attendance?

And how much money do you have unused in the bank, and what loans?

To clarify - the issue isn't that they won't. The issue is with the reasoning they give. They alwasy say "not enough funds" or "not enough fans"

Which isn't true.

I see.

Don't know about "not enough funds" but the other reason, "not enough fans", seems reasonable. Coincidently, I used to manage Lazio in my current save. I wasn't as successful as you but average attendance was below 60k.

How do you know you can fill a 100 000 stadium? What was your average attendance last season?

EDIT:

I just checked in the editor and the maximum attendance for Lazio is 50k in 11.2 database. So I really doubt you can fill a bigger stadium.

Hello,

I'm going to answer the opening post in a sec but, if you look carefully under "interact with board" there are figures on the projected attendance if you had an infinite stadium. Mine reads at 72,000 at the moment with a 64,000 seater stadium.

In regards to the OP, i'm seeing a bit of a glitch too I'm afraid. In my last few seasons, I've taken a side from 11th in the EPL to 3rd and then 1st. The season where I finished 3rd, I won the Europa League. On breaking into the Champions League, I thought I'd be able to attract a higher calibre of player (as with Man City's dilemma of being unable to attract truly top players to play outwith the ECL) but no, my "interested player list" still tops out at around £10,000,000 in value. No higher, in fact, than when I was finishing mid-table. I could offer more money and I could spend more, but no more players were officially interested.

So I think "well I've got a shortlist full of youngsters, I'll fill my boots with them for a season or two." Next season, I win the Premiership, both cups and hit the quarter finals of the ECL. Any team who wins the premiership would SURELY be able to attract big name players from Spain/Italy. People like Aguero, Ribery, Juan Mata, miscellaneous creative Italian players at clubs like Palermo, etc. But no, I still don't have any players worth more than £10million interested in signing for me. Again, the same players who were interested in me when I finished 11th. In FM2010, as soon as I made it into the champions league I could attract much bigger players if I could afford them, now I have no chance.

Far from making the league reputations dynamic, it's as if they've made the club reputations static! How have SI tried to fix something and ended up ruining something else? I like the premise behind dynamic reputation, it really has potential. But I can't play another season unless this gets fixed in patch no 3...

Oh, an exception to the rule, sometimes the odd absolute legend becomes disgruntled and leaves at "value" price - Tevez for £12m and Rooney for £19m, still in their mid twenties. I didn't buy them because it almost felt like bloody cheating! I've seen posts suggesting that the player sales system is needing re-tweaked on a large scale: being unable to negotiate better prices for transfer listed players, being unable to sell people even for £0, etc...

Hello,

I'm going to answer the opening post in a sec but, if you look carefully under "interact with board" there are figures on the projected attendance if you had an infinite stadium. Mine reads at 72,000 at the moment with a 64,000 seater stadium..

THANK YOU!

I knew this was somewhere and I couldnt find it!

In regards to the OP, i'm seeing a bit of a glitch too I'm afraid. In my last few seasons, I've taken a side from 11th in the EPL to 3rd and then 1st. The season where I finished 3rd, I won the Europa League. On breaking into the Champions League, I thought I'd be able to attract a higher calibre of player (as with Man City's dilemma of being unable to attract truly top players to play outwith the ECL) but no, my "interested player list" still tops out at around £10,000,000 in value. No higher, in fact, than when I was finishing mid-table. I could offer more money and I could spend more, but no more players were officially interested.

I remember a few seasons ago when Man City came into money, started trying to recuit players - but other than robinio they were restricted to 'good' but not brilliant players. Its taken another 3 years before they are able to attract the really big names, and they can only do that by paying ridiculous wages, not by players 'wanting' to play for them.

If I took for arguements sake, Newcastle to the top of the league in the next three years (in real life) would I suddenly be able to attract messi? Not likely. The calibre of players would go up slightly, after all they are now in the champions league (look at spurs) but the top players still wouldnt be interrested.

£10 million is still a huge amount of value - £10 = about £30million when you actually go out and buy them (unless they are really unhappy). My entire game only has 74 people valued at over 10million - thus your club is able to attract all but the top 74 players, which in my opinion is wholely realistic.

Well to clarify my points:

1) I can accept that the italian league has dropped in rankings because other italian teams have not been competitive

2) What I cannot accept is, why my club Inter's club reputation's growth is stifled by the italian league's reputation? Surely any player when contemplating joining another club would consider a club which has shown over a period of 10 years that it consistenly reaches the CL final. Compare my club's situation with that of the Barca of today. My CL record in the last 10 yrs is much better than barca's, the spanish league isn't competitive either.. But yet, in real life, I don't think any player would reject a chance to hold talks with Barca. So why is it the case with my inter?

3) Someone pointed out that club rep may not have been the only factor. maybe messi wasn't interested in joining my club because of competition. Granted, I did have quality players (marin, sanchez, pandev & pedro) on the wings.. But they wudn't have stood a chance against Messi. Infact, I didn't renew Panev's contract so he left at the end of the season. 3 wingers for 2 slots.. That's not alot of competition. Aside from that, once I changed my club rep (FMRTE) to match Arsenal's, Messi was willing to negotiate - a clear indication that club rep was the limiting factor.

I keep seeing threads that go along the lines of "My club is dominating everything, why isn't my league ranked top?" and the simple answer is this:

It takes more than one club to raise a league's reputation. The reason the EPL is ranked so highly is because they have 3 (sometimes 4) teams that do well in the CL, and normally have 2 or 3 teams do very well in the Europa League as well. In italy they only really have 3 or 4 teams a year total that do well in Europe. If you look at Russia or the Ukraine, they tend to only have 1 or 2 teams do decently.

tl;dr: You need multiple clubs doing well in the continental competitions to actually improve your league rep.

On a side note, club rep being limited by league rep (with DLR now) is a little bit broken and needs to be looked at.

I remember a few seasons ago when Man City came into money, started trying to recuit players - but other than robinio they were restricted to 'good' but not brilliant players. Its taken another 3 years before they are able to attract the really big names, and they can only do that by paying ridiculous wages, not by players 'wanting' to play for them.

If I took for arguements sake, Newcastle to the top of the league in the next three years (in real life) would I suddenly be able to attract messi? Not likely. The calibre of players would go up slightly, after all they are now in the champions league (look at spurs) but the top players still wouldnt be interrested.

£10 million is still a huge amount of value - £10 = about £30million when you actually go out and buy them (unless they are really unhappy). My entire game only has 74 people valued at over 10million - thus your club is able to attract all but the top 74 players, which in my opinion is wholely realistic.

While I agree with what you're saying, with our 'Newcastle' team having spent two consecutive seasons in the CL places to show it isn't just a flash in the pan, we would expect them to be able to acquire a higher standard of player than before such a rise. My 'interested' list is almost identical, save for the unhappy big players every now and then.

I have around £55million to spend and there's hardly a player I could get to improve my first 11. I'm not expecting Messi, but I'm expecting SOME kind of wider range of prospects. Maybe FM2010 was too generous, allowing me to sign Aguero after finishing 2nd in the Prem twice in a row with Leicester, but our Newcastle side should at least be able to attract top players from Spanish/Italian Europa League teams' (like Palermo, Valencia, Udinese, Villareal). Instead, I find the only players available to me are pretty ordinary players at mid-table Dutch/German/Russian/Ukrainian sides.

As for the money thing, if I try and throw money at 'uninterested' players, their agents won't even speak to me. And "all but the top 74" isn't true either, as there are many players worth less than £10,000,000 who aren't interested. I thought that using that figure might be a good indication of the calibre of the top players available.

All in all, I can feel the frustration of the person in the OP. I have a threadbare squad and my success last season relied heavily on staying injury free. I now have the budget to kick on and strengthen, but it's proving a thankless quest.

On a side note, club rep being limited by league rep (with DLR now) is a little bit broken and needs to be looked at.

Yes, but I don't think it's massively broken.

The OP is clearly an extreme case, being so dominant both in the domestic league and in Europe. If other Italian clubs can't keep up with him, and their performances in Europe are relatively poor compared to similar sides from Spain and Germany etc., then I think the league reputation staying fairly constant (or even sliding a little bit) is reasonable. It fluctuating by a couple of positions doesn't mean very much any way, as there's often very few points separating a bunch of leagues.

What needs to be altered slightly is the maximum club reputation attainable within a league's reputation. I think this could be solved fairly easily by just bumping it up but making it much harder to reach the absolute maximum, so only clubs who are utterly dominant can reach it.

On a side note, club rep being limited by league rep (with DLR now) is a little bit broken and needs to be looked at.

Im not really sure it does tho.

Consider celtic and Rangers. Until recently with the scottish league losing a champions league place both these teams qualified each year. For a long time both clubs were actually quite wealthy and had the money to attract big name players - but appart from larsson, no one actually wanted to go there.

Why?

Well despite the fact they did well most years in the champions league, and you were pretty much garanteed a league winners medal once every other year, you were playing against really really poor opposition every single week and it didnt do your reputation any good.

Thus, as is happening in the OPs italian league game, they are dominating the league each year, to the detriment of their opposition, and its affected the other clubs abillity in europe, thus, players simply dont want to come and play against inferior opposition each week, despite the fact that you have a good chance of doing well in europe.

Im not really sure it does tho.

Consider celtic and Rangers. Until recently with the scottish league losing a champions league place both these teams qualified each year. For a long time both clubs were actually quite wealthy and had the money to attract big name players - but appart from larsson, no one actually wanted to go there.

Why?

Well despite the fact they did well most years in the champions league, and you were pretty much garanteed a league winners medal once every other year, you were playing against really really poor opposition every single week and it didnt do your reputation any good.

Thus, as is happening in the OPs italian league game, they are dominating the league each year, to the detriment of their opposition, and its affected the other clubs abillity in europe, thus, players simply dont want to come and play against inferior opposition each week, despite the fact that you have a good chance of doing well in europe.

I don't disagree with anything in this post, but I would also argue that a club's reputation shouldn't be able to go down simply because their league rep goes down, especially if they are still a force to be reckoned with on a continental level.

Im not really sure it does tho.

Consider celtic and Rangers. Until recently with the scottish league losing a champions league place both these teams qualified each year. For a long time both clubs were actually quite wealthy and had the money to attract big name players - but appart from larsson, no one actually wanted to go there.

Why?

Well despite the fact they did well most years in the champions league, and you were pretty much garanteed a league winners medal once every other year, you were playing against really really poor opposition every single week and it didnt do your reputation any good.

Thus, as is happening in the OPs italian league game, they are dominating the league each year, to the detriment of their opposition, and its affected the other clubs abillity in europe, thus, players simply dont want to come and play against inferior opposition each week, despite the fact that you have a good chance of doing well in europe.

That's a rather different case. The OP has won the Champions League 3 or 4 times in 9 seasons. If that happened in real life, Inter would be one of the biggest teams in Europe, if not the biggest, with a commensurate reputation. Celtic and Rangers never had anywhere near that level of success.

Players at the top level are generally motivated to move clubs by two things: money and the opportunity to win major trophies. The OP can give them the money, and judging by his success he can give them a better chance to win major trophies than probably any other team on the planet. And yet he's losing them to weaker clubs. There's something obviously wrong there.

There's something obviously wrong there.

Im not sure how you get around it.

Whats wrong is the the OP is TOO successful and has unbalanced the game.

Thats not a critisim of the player, but the game. The game will work in all normal situations, but this is decidedly abnormal and thus it cant cope.