Corners, Free Kicks and Penalties

When I was selecting the players I wanted to take Free Kicks, Corners and Penalties, I was wondering if the attributes required are just Free Kick taking, Corners and Penalties, or are other attributes used.

For example, would a player with 15 for pens and 5 for finishing be worse at penalties than a player with 15 for both?

Likewise would a player with a better crossing attribute be better than a player with a lesser crossing attribute?

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

When I was selecting the players I wanted to take Free Kicks, Corners and Penalties, I was wondering if the attributes required are just Free Kick taking, Corners and Penalties, or are other attributes used.

For example, would a player with 15 for pens and 5 for finishing be worse at penalties than a player with 15 for both?

Likewise would a player with a better crossing attribute be better than a player with a lesser crossing attribute?

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

You need to look at a selection of attributes, for example a penalty taker will ideally have good penalty taking, composure, finishing and technique.

Likewise, a corner taker will need a good attribute in corner taking, crossing and technique.

I don't really understand it. The logic seems totally circular to me. If player X has a penalty-taking ability of, say, 16, why look at contributing factors?

I agree that penalty-taking is an amalgam of several abilities but when the player displays a certain penalty-taking ability, the supporting factors must have been considered already. Surely, looking at other factors must be irrelevant?

To put it in another way, you cannot have a player with high penalty-taking ability who're a bad penalty-taker. Right?

So why consider other aspects?

just becasue there good at something doesn't been they can do it. i may be good at flying doesn't been i can do it

just becasue there good at something doesn't mean they can do it. i may be good at flying doesn't mean i can do it

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neyles:

I don't really understand it. The logic seems totally circular to me. If player X has a penalty-taking ability of, say, 16, why look at contributing factors?

I agree that penalty-taking is an amalgam of several abilities but when the player displays a certain penalty-taking ability, the supporting factors must have been considered already. Surely, looking at other factors must be irrelevant?

To put it in another way, you cannot have a player with high penalty-taking ability who're a bad penalty-taker. Right?

So why consider other aspects? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Penalty taking is just his ability to hit a ball in a particular part of the goal from the penalty spot.

In order for him to be a good penalty taker, the player needs high decisions - i.e. to be able to pick WHICH part of the goal to aim for - and high composure - to be able to place the ball in the correct spot whilst under the immense pressure associated with a penalty.

Similarly free kick takers are just the players ability to hit a dead ball cleanly, if he can't cross or shoot, then even if he can hit a ball cleanly, the delivery will be poor.

If you ask in the tactics forum there are EXTENSIVE lists of what makes important set piece takers, however, in general go for:

Pens: Composure, penalty taking, finishing, decisions.

Free Kicks: Free kicks, crossing, long shots, decisions, creativity, maybe flair.

Corners: Corners, crossing, decisions, creativity.

I'm of the opinion that technique shouldn't be too important for these, as the free kick/corners/pens stat is the players technical ability in that area, so general tech shouldn't affect it too much.

i agree that one single stat shouldn't solely govern a particular type of set piece, but they are quite a lot of combinations that are unrealistic, particularly once regens start coming through

for instance, i've got a centre back who has 14 for free kicks (pretty good considering i'm in serie c) yet only 3 for long shots. i can accept that a player will be better at one than the other, but surely it's extremely uncommon for someone to be useless at shooting from range, yet have the ability to take good free kicks

likewise, lots of players seem to have great crossing ability mixed with terrible corner taking, and vice versa

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Penalty taking is just his ability to hit a ball in a particular part of the goal from the penalty spot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be right. But following your explanation, I find it very difficult to understand why we need a wholly independent variable for penalty-taking. I have always thought that the penalty figure was a median value, something sort of like this:

(X composure + Y finishing + Z decisions + W ???) / # of variables = penalty-taking ability

This would make sense.

If what you say is true, we have players with high free kick abilities that can only dream about hitting the goal, excellent penalty-takers that cannot convert, and corner-takers who cannot cross the ball.

Why not make things more intuitive? As virtual managers we don't have the option of seeing players perform outside of a match environment.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neyles:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Penalty taking is just his ability to hit a ball in a particular part of the goal from the penalty spot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be right. But following your explanation, I find it very difficult to understand why we need a wholly independent variable for penalty-taking. I have always thought that the penalty figure was a median value, something sort of like this:

(X composure + Y finishing + Z decisions + W ???) / # of variables = penalty-taking ability

This would make sense.

If what you say is true, we have players with high free kick abilities that can only dream about hitting the goal, excellent penalty-takers that cannot convert, and corner-takers who cannot cross the ball.

Why not make things more intuitive? As virtual managers we don't have the option of seeing players perform outside of a match environment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, i had thoughts along these lines myself some time ago, but didn't feel that it warranted a new thread.

I personally think that the penalty taking stat should be removed, and that it should just be (as you suggest) a combination of finishing, composure and decisions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kill Rock Stars:

i agree that one single stat shouldn't solely govern a particular type of set piece, but they are quite a lot of combinations that are unrealistic, particularly once regens start coming through

for instance, i've got a centre back who has 14 for free kicks (pretty good considering i'm in serie c) yet only 3 for long shots. i can accept that a player will be better at one than the other, but surely it's extremely uncommon for someone to be useless at shooting from range, yet have the ability to take good free kicks

likewise, lots of players seem to have great crossing ability mixed with terrible corner taking, and vice versa </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely agree with you here, some stats should be linked, i find it quite strange that a guy can cross a ball, but can't do the exact same thing from the corner spot...

Although with free kicks i think that it depends on what type of free kick we're on about, there are some players that can't shoot from range but could cross a dead ball fairly well. That said FM doesn't allow me to select a free kick taker for shots and a free kick taker for crosses, a quite glaring omision imo.

Everyone saying this has been discussed, and that you need many other ratings for penalties or free kicks... do you have any evidence in that matter?... Preferably SI games personel saying something kind of evidence.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Corners: Corners, crossing, decisions, creativity.

I'm of the opinion that technique shouldn't be too important for these, as the free kick/corners/pens stat is the players technical ability in that area, so general tech shouldn't affect it too much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This confuses me, as you see plenty of players who have good corner stats but crap crossing stats, and vice versa. How can you be good at one and not the other?

The only thing I can think of is you may be good from a standing start and not on the run, or vice versa, but if one is going to affect the other, then what is the point of having a good corner attribute but being crap at crossing?

I tend to look at the crossing attribute a little bit differently to some people. I see it as how good the player is at delivering a decent pass into the box while running down the wing. So a player could deliver great corners into the box, but not have the ability to do it while running down the wing.

I do believe that penalties doesn't need it's own attribute, on outfield players, but goalies should have the stat for saving penalties.

I can't remember what game it was I played that if a freekick was near enough to the corner flag, your corner taker was picked to take it automatically.

It is certainly confusing. If the penalty taking attribute is solely the player's ability to striker the ball from the penalty spot into the net then surely the crossing attribute is solely the player's ability to put a cross into the box. Other factors like whether he is doing it on the run or whether he is being pressured by a defender come from the combination of other attributes just like a penalty-taker's ability to actually score a penalty in a big game depends on composure and other things.

That being the case, what exactly is the difference between putting in a cross and taking a corner since all other aspects of crossing should be discounted from that attribute?

Why do people insist on overcomplicating matters on this board???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jayten OUT:

Why do people insist on overcomplicating matters on this board??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Especially without any sound evidence that what they are saying is the truth

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neyles:

To put it in another way, you cannot have a player with high penalty-taking ability who're a bad penalty-taker. Right?

So why consider other aspects? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thay could be brilliant - on the training ground, but not have the composure to repeat the feat on the big stage [ref. every penalty shoot-out involving England].

I do agree that there are inconsistencies and illogicalities in some areas (as brought up in this thread) that should be addressed for FM09.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neyles:

To put it in another way, you cannot have a player with high penalty-taking ability who're a bad penalty-taker. Right?

So why consider other aspects? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thay could be brilliant - on the training ground, but not have the composure to repeat the feat on the big stage [ref. every penalty shoot-out involving England].

I do agree that there are inconsistencies and illogicalities in some areas (as brought up in this thread) that should be addressed for FM09.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by phnompenhandy:

thay could be brilliant - on the training ground, but not have the composure to repeat the feat on the big stage [ref. every penalty shoot-out involving England].

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, but, in my eyes, this piece of data is totally irrelevant then. Why do I need to know how well a player performs in training when he is unable to apply his abilities to a match environment?

Make the data more intuitive? Yes, please!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

I personally think that the penalty taking stat should be removed, and that it should just be (as you suggest) a combination of finishing, composure and decisions.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with that being, of course, that good penalty takers will almost solely be attacking players, while in real-life there are several defenders that are very good at taking penalty kicks. But game-wise, there are very few defenders having a good finishing stat.

I see finishing more as the ability to convert a chance into a goal from all kinds of different positions. Entirely different from the ability to be able to accurately kick a ball into a certain area of the goal from a set position: the penalty spot.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jayten OUT:

Why do people insist on overcomplicating matters on this board??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

I only base my selections on the given attributes, penalty kickers on penalty kicking, trow-ins on Long Throws, and I seem to be doing alright.

Is it luck, or can I get better? Possibly, but I stick with it.

I'll keep it simple - penalty takers

First of all look for the best penalty taker

Then out of the top 3 look for the one with the best composure

The reason is that anyone could take a penlaty perhaps when the team was 10-up but who would you want taking a penalty say in the last minute at extra time at a cup final

As guide dont select any penalty takers and let the "AI" or captain choose for you. Watch this over a few games noting who took the pens and this may give you a player taking more.

Additionally check out the FM08 manual with the game - loads of good advice here that gets over looked

I allowed the AI to chose my penalty taker for Newcastle (well, I saw "allowed" - what I really mean is I kept forgetting to set a penalty taker myself) in an FM07 game.

Final game of the season, needing to win at Watford to take the EPL title, we got a penalty in the 89th minute with the score at 0-0. I was aghast as I saw one of my centre-backs step up to take it and blast it well wide. A week later, me still having forgotten to set my penalty taker despite that, we got another in the FA cup final. This time my winger (with 20 penalty taking attribute) was auto-selected and duly blasted it home.

i.e. I wouldn't trust the AI as far as I could throw it when it comes to chosing my penalty taker!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by glamdring:

I allowed the AI to chose my penalty taker for Newcastle (well, I saw "allowed" - what I really mean is I kept forgetting to set a penalty taker myself) in an FM07 game.

Final game of the season, needing to win at Watford to take the EPL title, we got a penalty in the 89th minute with the score at 0-0. I was aghast as I saw one of my centre-backs step up to take it and blast it well wide. A week later, me still having forgotten to set my penalty taker despite that, we got another in the FA cup final. This time my winger (with 20 penalty taking attribute) was auto-selected and duly blasted it home.

i.e. I wouldn't trust the AI as far as I could throw it when it comes to chosing my penalty taker! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL - However even the best penalty takers miss penalties.

Who knows - maybe your centreback having missed one could have gone on to score the next 99 from 99