Problem with Scoring 4-1-4-1 DM Wide

[Hipster Kangaroo]

Hello!

Currently playing with Juventus and having a hard time scoring in especially in Away fixtures.

Sometimes I completely trash the enemy team like 5-0, but most of the time it goes 0-0 or 1-1. Most of my Shots go Off Target or the players just blast it in the keepers hands. The opposition likes to sit back and hold a lot of people in and around the box.

Any help you guys can give is much appreciated.

 

[Novem9]

imo change lower tempo for medium. You need to work with a ball quickly. After this could think about other steps

[summatsupeer]

3 hours ago, Hipster Kangaroo said:

The opposition likes to sit back and hold a lot of people in and around the box.

Have a look at your setup for a second, all of the front 3 are on attack duties trying to play on the shoulder of the defenders to make runs in behind. Then the MEZ-At is joining them.

Your contributing to them "sitting back" by being very aggressive with Out of Possession instructions, pinning opponents in when the press is effective.  That then gives no space for the forwards runs.

Then your In Possession instructions slow the attack down, whilst giving all of the forwards instructions to attack quickly (roles+duties).

Lots of options but depends how you want to play, hopefully this might give you a few ideas though.

[scratchmonkey]

The problem seems to be at first glance that the issue is that you're playing a slow system very heavily oriented toward possession, which makes it easier for defensive teams to stay in front of the ball, and as Summatsupeer points out, your out of possession instructions are then set up to pin them around their penalty area as much as possible.

I think my advice would depend on how you want to score goals. Probably the easiest way is to take off Work Ball into Box, and then try slightly more Direct passing -- crosses and long shots are great scoring options in this ME and you should have the players to take advantage of that. If you're invested in using combination play and movement to create more Clear-Cut Chances (the glaring problem from the match stats that you posted), you're currently trying to fit a camel through the eye of the needle; the question should then be, How to create more space for your attacking players?

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Hipster Kangaroo said:

 

A very unbalanced tactic in terms of roles and duties and needlessly aggressive in terms of defensive instructions.

An excessive number of attack duties and/or attacking mentality does not make your team more potent and dangerous. It just makes the tactic disjointed and messy. 

The first thing you need to decide is what style of football you want to play and why. Once you answer that question, we can more specifically discuss potential changes you need to make to the tactic 

[pheelf]

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The first thing you need to decide is what style of football you want to play and why. Once you answer that question, we can more specifically discuss potential changes you need to make to the tactic 

I couldn't have said it better myself, looking at the tactic you have the baseline settings of an attacking mentality (very wide width, very high tempo, very high defensive line, very high LoE, hard pressing, high roaming and more), then you have 14 team instructions layered on top of that. It's going to be very difficult for anyone to decipher what the problem is let alone try and help fix it.

My advice is to simplify the tactic as much as possible without compromising the style of play you want to implement (that includes roles and duties too). A tactic with a very good team doesn't need to be overly complicated. The more refined a style of play you try to implement in a tactic the more sensitive it becomes to how the opposition plays against you. That is why you are seeing such wide variation in performances and results.

I think watching your games in more detail could help. Try to ignore statistics as they can prove misleading and be interpreted in a load of different ways. Focus more on how your players are positioning themselves when attacking and whether they have space, that is the key ingredient to creating quality chances to score goals.

If your players don't have space because the opposition is packing an area with players and not leaving any then considering both teams start with 11 men then there must be areas of the pitch where there is an abundance of space which you can exploit. You want the defending team to have to defend as much of the pitch as possible which means having good DEPTH in addition to having good width to your attacks.

The tactic you posted suffers from a lack of depth, improve that aspect of it and I think that would dramatically improve your ability to score goals.

Best of luck

[Hipster Kangaroo]

Thank you for all the responses! 

15 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The first thing you need to decide is what style of football you want to play and why. Once you answer that question, we can more specifically discuss potential changes you need to make to the tactic 

Ok lets get down to this. This season I wanted to aim for more Posession controlling game where I don't aimlessly run for 90 minutes of the game. Last season I ran a Klopp style Ultra Tempo with very high LoE. That got me into trouble in the latter part of the season when trying to win the league/cup/CL as Juventus. I want to dominate my opposition really show them that we are the top team in Italy.

I looked at my squad and figured out that my Central Midfielders were top quality in a lot of areas and especially in passing. My strikers are not very fast, but have good finnishing/mental/passing attributes. FB/WB are very good at their job, but not the most reliable crosser.

15 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

An excessive number of attack duties and/or attacking mentality does not make your team more potent and dangerous. It just makes the tactic disjointed and messy. 

Now that you said this I have seen a disjointed part of the tactic. My Central Midfielders control the ball very well beating any press that the AI is trying to do. Then suddenly someone just tries to long pass the ball into the opposition corner to my Winger. Naturally this often leads to loss of posession.

PS. I just read the role and pair guide here on the forum and have a tiny bit better understanding of not just putting attackers on attack duty. I still feel like I could use some help 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Hipster Kangaroo

[Hipster Kangaroo]

UPDATE!

So trying to patch quickly some of the most glaring weaknesses in my tactic I came up with this.

 

Better results against defending teams, but the new bogeyman is 5-4-1 Ultra defence by Atalanta and AC Milan.

Anyways back to the tactic. I upped the tempo and directness by 1 point each. I thought to myself that the quality my players possess should give them the tools to dominate weaker teams in Serie A. Forcing them In Posession to do exactly everything I want might limit them. I felt that it gives way more Key Passes to my Central Midfielders the CAR and DLP. The solo striker is now on Support duty as it felt like he was marked by 2-3 players in every match. This should open up more space for the other attacking players to move and create chances. (I even managed to get a few Clear Cut chances in matches).

 

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Hipster Kangaroo said:

This season I wanted to aim for more Posession controlling game where I don't aimlessly run for 90 minutes of the game. Last season I ran a Klopp style Ultra Tempo with very high LoE. That got me into trouble in the latter part of the season when trying to win the league/cup/CL as Juventus. I want to dominate my opposition really show them that we are the top team in Italy

Well, if you want a possession-oriented style, that's all the more reason to reduce attack duties in favor of support ones - because more support duties mean smoother transitions and players helping each other both in attack and defense - as well as toning the mentality down (positive and balanced work best for attack-minded possession styles). However, this does not mean that you should only have support duties and no attack. A degree of penetration always needs to be there, but without compromising overall tactical balance.

So you basically need less attack and more support duties. But even more important than the pure number of different duties is how you distribute them across the system. Because there are 3 key principles you should always follow when creating a tactic:

1. how my players should create space for one another when we attack (this is achieved through setting roles and duties up wisely)

2. how then they use that space

3. who and how is supposed to provide defensive cover (protection) for more attack-minded teammates

When you set up roles and duties properly in accordance with these principles, then you need just very few basic instructions (if any). 

Now try to create a setup of roles and duties you think could make sense and show it here to us for some analysis and further advice 

[Hipster Kangaroo]

On 09/09/2020 at 19:32, Experienced Defender said:

1. how my players should create space for one another when we attack (this is achieved through setting roles and duties up wisely)

1. When going forward in attack I noticed 2 types of attacks. One is that the engine room midfield takes hold and control of the ball. They have 2 choices in distributing the ball.

a) Use the FB - DLP - CAR combination to work the ball for the IF(At). After that the IF(At) has the individual skill to either dribble past his defenders or he will have a chance to pass back to the supporting FB or CAR.

b) WB(At) and IF(Su) combination creates a interesting mix where the IF(Su) receives a long ball from DLP or CD(De) he will hold the ball allowing a overlap by my WB(At). The WB will run with the ball into the corner area. There he has options in trying to Dribble/Cross past the Fullback defending or pass the ball for the IF(Su). The combination of IF and WB creates space for the CM(At) to attack the box. He will try to move inside the box or attempt a Long Shot.

The DLF(Su) sometimes seem like he doesn't do anything meaningful on the pitch, but watching the match he is always marked by 2 central defenders allowing his team mates to work the ball with more space. His good passing ability comes in handy in counter usually passing the ball from the midfield for the Inside Forwards. 

Both my wingers are set to Inside Forwards as they lack good Crossing skills and the only target would be my lone ST with lacklustre aerial ability. My crosses mainly come from the FB and WB.

2. I think I somewhat answered that already?

3. In Defence I have essentially 3 defenders as the WB(At) might be caught too far away in a counter. Although he does track back very fast with a good work rate. The right IF is on support duty in order to have him sit a bit deeper. He has decent defensive stats in tackling and in a lot of situation defends the right flank. I also have the DLP on defence duty to help the defence on counters. The midfield tries to counter press the opposition and win the ball.

 

 

We don't often score more than 2 goals, but aside from a couple of hiccups this tactic seems to be very solid at the back. (I also want to hype that we won the Champions League  and were able to shut down the worlds most valuable striker in the Finals) 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Hipster Kangaroo said:

We don't often score more than 2 goals, but aside from a couple of hiccups this tactic seems to be very solid at the back. (I also want to hype that we won the Champions League  and were able to shut down the worlds most valuable striker in the Finals) 

Okay, so the tactic seems to work for your team, which is the only thing that matters at the end of the day 

[Hipster Kangaroo]

Yea it seemed to click at the end. Still had a few problems against very defensive teams, but that only amounted to like 1 loss and a few draws during the whole season. So I thought it wasn't all that important in the grand schemes of things. But I want to thank for the tips and "thought exercises". It really helped me look the tactical side of the game in a different light.