my 4231 and issues

[mbar8t6]

4 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

They didn't sit back that much here, you're right, but you need to watch the match again. Your 2 centrebacks, 1 fullback and DLP knocking the ball among themselves happens a lot. Then they very slowly move it forward, but that's it. Once they do move it a bit forward, there aren't many options available. The other MC is usually marked and your AMC is far too keen to bomb forward (doing it too early as well), so he's not available either. It almost always results in a very long ball wide (usually to the left) and then it results in a cross.

The key in this formation is getting the AMC's role sorted out. Right now what he's doing would ideally suit a play style where you're working it forward quicker or where you have more space in midfield, maybe against a 2 man midfield setup.

Though there were issues (and I'll add that I only watched the first 35 mins) you had the better chances and I'd say you were unlucky a couple of times that Jorge didn't score.

I don't know if these issues are ones you regularly face, but it did seem to be issues preventing you from being better in this match.

Thanks for having a look at it. Yeah these are pretty regular issues. These are all things that i’ve Had different in the tactic at one point or another but was advised that it wasn’t good for my tactic. For example, my AMC being on support, the advice was to put him on attack duty, I had tempo set to slightly higher in this match also but standard was advised as the better option. From how you’ve put it here my inclination would be to put my amc on support, and maybe the BBM isn’t the right choice also. Maybe going back to playing narrower, I feel forcing the ball wide is an issue anyway as the crosses are a waste most of the time and more often than not result in blocked crosses, I feel like my players always look more cohesive narrower and it results on better link up play and prevents players being crowded out so often

[HUNT3R]

15 minutes ago, mbar8t6 said:

For example, my AMC being on support, the advice was to put him on attack duty, I had tempo set to slightly higher in this match also but standard was advised as the better option.

I'm not saying it's necessarily an issue, him being on Attack, but I am saying there's a disconnect there from what I saw in that one half of a match. Definitely something to look at though.

[mbar8t6]

29 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I'm not saying it's necessarily an issue, him being on Attack, but I am saying there's a disconnect there from what I saw in that one half of a match. Definitely something to look at though.

What other options could i have to stop this knocking the ball around between the DLP, Cbs and FB? maybe if my DLP was on support instead? would this make him more likely to pass up the pitch quicker, maybe even move a bit higher up?

[mbar8t6]

@Experienced Defender I've ditched the 4231 after all. switched to a 4123 and even though i've only played 3 games so far, the movement up front is incredible compared to 4231, the wing players actually have space to cut into and the shape looks so much better, space seems much easier to come by also.

thanks for your help in helping me understand all this a bit better.

few questions then I'll stop bothering you :-)

I've currently got a winger on one side, is it more acceptable in a 4123 to just play with an IW and an IF now theres more space? 

the MEZa role doesn't highlight tackling as a key attribute would you play someone like maddison there with tackling of 9 and and acceleration of 12? or is he just not suitable? i'd post screenshots but i've changed kit images and realised i can use my old facepack and just update it and don't know the rules regarding that stuff on the forum.

 

[XuluBak]

50 minutes ago, mbar8t6 said:

I've currently got a winger on one side, is it more acceptable in a 4123 to just play with an IW and an IF now theres more space? 

It's more viable to have both wings cutting inside from a 433 than a 4231, because you don't have an AMC occupying that space, and also because having a holding midfielder allows your FBs to be more aggressive, stretching the width of the pitch; however, both options can be very effective in a 433. I'd say W-A is probably my most consistently used forward role/duty in 433 or 4231. 

Mez-A should suit Maddison fairly well in a 433.

[mbar8t6]

12 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

It's more viable to have both wings cutting inside from a 433 than a 4231, because you don't have an AMC occupying that space, and also because having a holding midfielder allows your FBs to be more aggressive, stretching the width of the pitch; however, both options can be very effective in a 433. I'd say W-A is probably my most consistently used forward role/duty in 433 or 4231. 

Mez-A should suit Maddison fairly well in a 433.

i'm so torn, im at deadline day now with a 44.5m deal done to sell Maddison I just need to confirm it, also got Castrovilli lined up to replace him for 38m but i really dont know what to do, there's just not that many decent looking mezzalas that i can afford.

                                  

                                 Maddison                                                                                                                                                                                          Castrovilli

                                                                                  

 

[XuluBak]

2 minutes ago, mbar8t6 said:

i'm so torn, im at deadline day now with a 44.5m deal done to sell Maddison I just need to confirm it, also got Castrovilli lined up to replace him for 38m but i really dont know what to do, there's just not that many decent looking mezzalas that i can afford.

                                  

                                 Maddison                                                                                                                                                                                          Castrovilli

                                                                                  

 

I'd keep Maddison. Both are good players, but Maddison is better with both feet and a huge asset on set pieces. 

[mbar8t6]

3 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

I'd keep Maddison. Both are good players, but Maddison is better with both feet and a huge asset on set pieces. 

Yeah I hadn’t considered that actually, it’s the slightly better physicals and teamwork from Castrovilli and the fact he can tackle a bit that makes me unsure. I might keep Maddison til January and see how it’s going 

[Starsurfer]

16 hours ago, mbar8t6 said:

What other options could i have to stop this knocking the ball around between the DLP, Cbs and FB? maybe if my DLP was on support instead? would this make him more likely to pass up the pitch quicker, maybe even move a bit higher up?

Food for thought - Try playing some other role in that position instead of a DLP. 

[Experienced Defender]

22 hours ago, mbar8t6 said:

I've currently got a winger on one side, is it more acceptable in a 4123 to just play with an IW and an IF now theres more space?

Assuming I understood your question correctly, having an IW/IF on both flanks makes more sense in a 4123 than in a 4231. So the answer is basically yes. But it does not mean that you have to use only an IW and/or IF and not a winger (role). 

 

22 hours ago, mbar8t6 said:

the MEZa role doesn't highlight tackling as a key attribute would you play someone like maddison there with tackling of 9 and and acceleration of 12? or is he just not suitable?

In a 4123 wide, I would play such a player as a mezzala depending on how defensively reliable are the other 2 midfielders (i.e. can they cover for him defensively). As opposed to a 4231, where it would be a no-no in my tactical book  

[mbar8t6]

55 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Assuming I understood your question correctly, having an IW/IF on both flanks makes more sense in a 4123 than in a 4231. So the answer is basically yes. But it does not mean that you have to use only an IW and/or IF and not a winger (role). 

 

In a 4123 wide, I would play such a player as a mezzala depending on how defensively reliable are the other 2 midfielders (i.e. can they cover for him defensively). As opposed to a 4231, where it would be a no-no in my tactical book  

Yeah I haven't ruled out using a winger entirely, my main dislike in general is crossing, I just can't seem to get it to work for me in fm20 and it results in a lot of wasted possession. Also the fact i'm now using a striker who isn't at all good in the air. I guess working into the box negates that issue but i always can't help but feel it blunts the attack somewhat when using it.

I'm still experimenting with roles and duties at the moment, we've had some good games but generally not scoring enough or creating enough chances right now. things tend to go a bit stale in the final 3rd but i thinks it's mainly because i'm not finding the balance in the CM pairing and the DM.

Anchor man behind a MEZa and a DLPs was my initial setup, but using the DLP is maybe a bit too passive. Also tried the DLPd at DM with a BBM and a MEZa in front but overall i'm not too sure at the moment. The overall biggest problem is when we get to the point where we've pushed the defence back to the wall and there is no space to really use effectively other than put it wide and attempt a cross. Perhaps i need to ditch the PF and try a F9 or DLF but i have hardly any experience with either role. But I'm having fun trying to work it out at least.

I'm still using limited Ti's

positive mentality

shorter passing

Play out defence

work ball into the box

counter

higher D-line

offside trap

 

i have been trying during games to up the passing to standard and leaving tempo on default also if our possession is overly high. 

I have the MEZ at RCM and an attacking W/IF on the left and as a result ive been reluctant to put a FB on attack as he'd be on the side of the MEZ and it will leave me with a weak flank. But I'm also thinking if i try the MEZ at LCM on the same side as the winger would the MEZ going wide and the winger staying wide help to create an overload on the left and leave me with something to work with on the right? 

no harm in trying... anyway thanks for all the help, it's very much appreciated

I'm not gonna post a screen of the tactic right now, but if you can spot anything hidden in my ramble that you think could help then i'd appreciate it

 

[Experienced Defender]

17 hours ago, mbar8t6 said:

I guess working into the box negates that issue

Not always. Work ball into box can help reduce crosses and/or long shots only if your players have other viable options, therefore the instruction does not act as a magic button. Always keep in mind that all tactical elements are interrelated and interdependent. Plus, work ball into box can backfire if your players are not good enough both technically and mentally to keep the ball under pressure. 

[mbar8t6]

22 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Not always. Work ball into box can help reduce crosses and/or long shots only if your players have other viable options, therefore the instruction does not act as a magic button. Always keep in mind that all tactical elements are interrelated and interdependent. Plus, work ball into box can backfire if your players are not good enough both technically and mentally to keep the ball under pressure. 

Everything gone wrong now anyway 

we just don’t create chances anymore 

having usual issues with when I use this formation, no movement up front and no penetration at all, maybe it’s my players, I literally don’t know I’ve tried every combo of CM partnerships and nothing seems to work. My players are so slow to actually do anything even if I up passing to standard so the tempo increases they’re the same, I’m stumped 

ai defences even from the big teams are so deep and static that we can’t create space so we hit a wall and fail. 

When I watch teams attack me there’s so much more movement in my defence with the opposition moving and filling gaps etc. I can’t create that effect at all. 

I’ve taken enough of your time anyway. I’ll read some forum threads and see if I can make sense of it at all

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, mbar8t6 said:

I’ve tried every combo of CM partnerships and nothing seems to work

Well, that's the problem. If you keep just randomly changing role combinations without thinking about the broader tactical context, you'll never make it work. Especially if you focus on only one specific partnership (like CMs in this case). 

[mbar8t6]

20 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, that's the problem. If you keep just randomly changing role combinations without thinking about the broader tactical context, you'll never make it work. Especially if you focus on only one specific partnership (like CMs in this case). 

I haven’t been randomly changing them I’ve been putting a lot of thought into it, I’m well into the second half of the season and haven’t just been changing it every game and I’ve been very much thinking about the broader tactical context, thinking of how they’ll link with my other players and where they might impact something else and changing other roles accordingly without going overboard and changing too much. For the most part I’ve stuck with a DLP as one role in the CM strata, as I think a more aggressive role will interfere with my IF space, and I want him to have the space to cut in. My wingers are pretty set with a W and an IF. I don’t feel the need right now to mess with treqs or other more niche roles. Only roles I think are changeable are my CM on the side of the W, my striker and maybe the DM, so these are the roles I’m mainly looking at. Could be the wrong way to go about it but I guess I’ll learn that the hard way and hopefully gain something along the way.

[Experienced Defender]

20 minutes ago, mbar8t6 said:

I don’t feel the need right now to mess with treqs or other more niche roles. Only roles I think are changeable are my CM on the side of the W, my striker and maybe the DM

Wait a minute... Do you play in a 4231 or 4123 wide? I am asking because you mentioned the DM.

[mbar8t6]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Wait a minute... Do you play in a 4231 or 4123 wide? I am asking because you mentioned the DM.

I switched to the 4123, I mentioned it in a post way back now when I asked about maddison as a Mezzala. I made the decision at the end of my previous season to change

[XuluBak]

What is your updated tactical setup? 

[mbar8t6]

32 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

What is your updated tactical setup? 

not sure i can post a pic with real kits and facepack showing on tactical screen?

just in case

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by mbar8t6

[mbar8t6]

I'll add that i think the MEZ is probably a bad idea here but i thought maybe between him, the winger and the WB that maybe they'd help shift the defence to one side and leave my IF in space with the DLP there to pick him out if he received the ball.

i've been trying the IF on attack with winger on support with a F9 up top too with both WB on support and changing the MEZ to a BBM, but i think he needs an attacking role, CMa maybe. also Rice did start off as an anchor man

[XuluBak]

Did you share your striker? On phone, so may just be missing him.

[mbar8t6]

5 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

Did you share your striker? On phone, so may just be missing him.

He’s a PFa in the original screen shot

[XuluBak]

1 hour ago, mbar8t6 said:

He’s a PFa in the original screen shot

You posted a screenshot of his profile? Attributes and such.

[mbar8t6]

12 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

You posted a screenshot of his profile? Attributes and such.

ah i see...

I lost my main man to barcelona for 120mil and couldn't find anyone ideal but here's what i got

brewster has kinda been main striker

i bought this guy to maybe try false 9 he's young and needs to improve finishing

then i have this winger, i have been using up front and on the wing

 

 

[XuluBak]

Ok, few thoughts...

1) RB --> WB(a)

2) You're probably asking too much of Harry Winks. He's a solid, well-rounded midfielder, but don't think he's quite good enough creatively, and maybe even technically, to be your lone creative outlet in the EPL. Rice isn't giving you much of anything going forward either. Don't know anything about your Mez, Belgian regen? What happened to Maddison?

3) I'd probably leave Tafuro as a Winger(a). He's got a lot of potential, and versatility, but height and one-footedness will limit him more elsewhere than it would there. He just needs a little more pace.

4) I tend to prefer AF to PF. Unless Stengs is a goal machine, I'd try that up front (for now). 

5) You don't have much in the way of aerial threats, so would look to "work ball into box" and possibly even set to "low crosses" (I usually keep this "mixed," but seem to have at least one good aerial threat)

 

[mbar8t6]

24 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

Ok, few thoughts...

1) RB --> WB(a)

2) You're probably asking too much of Harry Winks. He's a solid, well-rounded midfielder, but don't think he's quite good enough creatively, and maybe even technically, to be your lone creative outlet in the EPL. Rice isn't giving you much of anything going forward either. Don't know anything about your Mez, Belgian regen? What happened to Maddison?

3) I'd probably leave Tafuro as a Winger(a). He's got a lot of potential, and versatility, but height and one-footedness will limit him more elsewhere than it would there. He just needs a little more pace.

4) I tend to prefer AF to PF. Unless Stengs is a goal machine, I'd try that up front (for now). 

5) You don't have much in the way of aerial threats, so would look to "work ball into box" and possibly even set to "low crosses" (I usually keep this "mixed," but seem to have at least one good aerial threat)

 

I do tend to work the ball into the box if we don't create anything early, and low crosses has actually been on permanently i literally changed to mixed to see the difference as i don't think low crosses ever actually look low. 

i also have bennacer but he has ppm to get forward so i also rotate him at MEZ but hes been injured a lot. i need to strengthen a bit in the middle but nobody good enough has been available

i thought AF tend to get far to isolated in single striker set ups, i've tried it but hasn't worked great 

 

[Urotsukidoji]

complete forwards never work for me, especially as a lone striker. try advanced forward to spearhead attack and score goals, deep lying forward to link up play with amc and if, or pressing forward which works in a high line pressing tactic where you press from the front

[Experienced Defender]

19 hours ago, mbar8t6 said:

I switched to the 4123, I mentioned it in a post way back now when I asked about maddison as a Mezzala. I made the decision at the end of my previous season to change

Yes, I now remember. Sorry. I've been going through too many posts and threads to remember everything, so I sometimes need to be reminded 

[mbar8t6]

34 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Yes, I now remember. Sorry. I've been going through too many posts and threads to remember everything, so I sometimes need to be reminded 

Its all good. I give up anyway, I've tried things suggested on here and reading other threads, i think my tactic looks as though it should work but it just doesn't. we've scored 40 goals in 34 league games and i'm 6th. 

it's probably my own fault whether it's training related or too many young players I don't know. but we played better and scored more with much worse players while still trying to play like a big team. 

it's got to a point where we are lucky to have 6 shots a match and losing possession battles against teams in the bottom 3. I'm going to resign and see what crops up and go from there. 

[Starsurfer]

On 04/06/2020 at 06:37, mbar8t6 said:

not sure i can post a pic with real kits and facepack showing on tactical screen?

just in case

 

 

10 hours ago, mbar8t6 said:

Its all good. I give up anyway, I've tried things suggested on here and reading other threads, i think my tactic looks as though it should work but it just doesn't. we've scored 40 goals in 34 league games and i'm 6th. 

it's probably my own fault whether it's training related or too many young players I don't know. but we played better and scored more with much worse players while still trying to play like a big team. 

it's got to a point where we are lucky to have 6 shots a match and losing possession battles against teams in the bottom 3. I'm going to resign and see what crops up and go from there. 

Seeing how exasperated you are, based on the above screenshot of your setup and keeping it as similar as possible, I suggest making the following changes and see if there is any improvement:

Add player instructions pressing intensity more urgent to AML, STC, and AMR.

Hope this helps. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Starsurfer

[just_joe]

A few little tweaks to your 4123 and you're onto a winner here.

You're losing possession in midfield too often for a few reasons:

• Not providing enough attacking support for a short passing style --> change that Mezzala to a bog-standard CM-Su
• Too many players run wide with ball when in possession --> Set the left back to FB-At or the left winger to IW-At (whatever suits the players best)

You'll also struggle to regain possession because of the team and individual player instructions. I would bet you're committing a lot of fouls..? I'd at least drop the line of engagement back to standard to fix that and maybe the offside trap as well.

[mbar8t6]

4 hours ago, just_joe said:

A few little tweaks to your 4123 and you're onto a winner here.

You're losing possession in midfield too often for a few reasons:

• Not providing enough attacking support for a short passing style --> change that Mezzala to a bog-standard CM-Su
• Too many players run wide with ball when in possession --> Set the left back to FB-At or the left winger to IW-At (whatever suits the players best)

You'll also struggle to regain possession because of the team and individual player instructions. I would bet you're committing a lot of fouls..? I'd at least drop the line of engagement back to standard to fix that and maybe the offside trap as well.

To be honest I’ve tried most of these things but something else is just not right but I can’t figure it out. I took the arsenal job, they have better more creative midfielders and a far better striker. Team is good all round yet it’s the exact same as when I was at villa. I’ve played other teams setting up exactly the same way with similar if not the same roles and duties if not they’ll be playing something I’ve tried but every team is just better, their players move in attack, make, make runs onto through balls, actually attempt through balls, ping the ball around easily and I just can’t understand why it would be like that, they using pi’s? Telling players to take risks? It’s making absolutely no sense to me at all. My teams are playing so poorly and I don’t see what I’m doing wrong

[CaptCanuck]

You must be doing something right to have the chance to be the Gunners manager ;-)

Have you tried an OTT tactic just to prove you can shift the dynamics on a large scale in one direction or the other? Whether it be shots/possessions/crosses... whatever metric it might be and then binary chop your way down to what you are hoping to see out the team? Obviously not something you'd do realistically in footballing terms managing a club, but from a troubleshooting/problem solving POV.

[mbar8t6]

13 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

You must be doing something right to have the chance to be the Gunners manager ;-)

Have you tried an OTT tactic just to prove you can shift the dynamics on a large scale in one direction or the other? Whether it be shots/possessions/crosses... whatever metric it might be and then binary chop your way down to what you are hoping to see out the team? Obviously not something you'd do realistically in footballing terms managing a club, but from a troubleshooting/problem solving POV.

I won the europa league, carabao cup, semis of champs league and finished 4th then 2nd in the league before switching to 4123 and going on an absolute downward spiral, i even went back to the old 4231 before preseason in my last season at villa and team performance was no different. I haven't tried anything extreme like that no, i don't really see the point to be honest, i want to play the short passing, possession with intent so i don't see what i'd achieve. i got knocked out of the f.a cup by league one plymouth before i left villa, couldn't even create a decent chance to score against opposition of that poor quality. I don't know whats going on 

[CaptCanuck]

1 hour ago, mbar8t6 said:

I won the europa league, carabao cup, semis of champs league and finished 4th then 2nd in the league before switching to 4123 and going on an absolute downward spiral, i even went back to the old 4231 before preseason in my last season at villa and team performance was no different. I haven't tried anything extreme like that no, i don't really see the point to be honest, i want to play the short passing, possession with intent so i don't see what i'd achieve. i got knocked out of the f.a cup by league one plymouth before i left villa, couldn't even create a decent chance to score against opposition of that poor quality. I don't know whats going on 

That is a good season, nice work :-) But fair enough on the current tactic, then super short passing, super narrow, play it into the box, high tempo, play out of defense, dribble less for the in possession instructions and see if that overwhelms crap oppo. Should look like Sat morning 8yrs old swarming around the ball lol. 

You mention returning to the old style and that no working either, is it as simple as the opponents treat you as a good, well regarded team now and have set themselves up accordingly? I had a 6th place finish and League Cup victory in season 3 and see a difference so far in season 4. Meh 1-1 draw against relatively crap team after a solid 1-1 draw with Citeh for example, as the good teams (at least City & Spurs so far) don't seem any different, but the lower teams can.

Anyways, at least Arsenal should be a lot of fun!

[mbar8t6]

7 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

That is a good season, nice work :-) But fair enough on the current tactic, then super short passing, super narrow, play it into the box, high tempo, play out of defense, dribble less for the in possession instructions and see if that overwhelms crap oppo. Should look like Sat morning 8yrs old swarming around the ball lol. 

You mention returning to the old style and that no working either, is it as simple as the opponents treat you as a good, well regarded team now and have set themselves up accordingly? I had a 6th place finish and League Cup victory in season 3 and see a difference so far in season 4. Meh 1-1 draw against relatively crap team after a solid 1-1 draw with Citeh for example, as the good teams (at least City & Spurs so far) don't seem any different, but the lower teams can.

Anyways, at least Arsenal should be a lot of fun!

Yeah but my villa were a genuinely good side and teams started defending more after finishing 4th, still managed to follow it up with a 2nd place. So are arsenal, they finished 3rd last season and are in the champions league so even if teams want to treat them as good teams I don’t see why they should become overawed and outplayed by poor teams 

in a game driven by attributes why can teams with bad defensive attributes play faultless defensive football? If I tried to play like they do I’d get destroyed.

i think my tactics are just to basic or something now. You watch people like Rashidi play the game it just looks like he puts on every instruction in the TC and his teams play well 

[mbar8t6]

Well it seems I’ve actually had a breakthrough. It’s pass into space...

when it’s not on, the players always just pass to feet, your strikers etc are receiving the ball to feet while standing on shoulder of the defender but with pass into space the runs players make is insane. 

It was said to me that when I had it on before I was asking my players to pass into space that isn’t there but that’s not the case at all. They play safe and nice for the most part but if a throughball opportunity is there they take it, if your wingers are in acres out wide they get played in. If your inside forward makes a run to cut in, they attempt to play him in. I’m even getting players getting in behind against deep defences now. When pass into space is turned off the players don’t even look to make these runs it just promotes needless possession with no risk at all. 

I guess if you had players with ppm for plays killer balls and switches ball to the other flank maybe then it does the same thing and you don’t need it switched on but I feel theres a lot misconception about pass into space. In hindsight when my villa team went downhill after tweaking from my unbalanced tactic a few seasons ago and started scoring less this has got to be why