Trequartista

[sheyner]

Hey guys, i'm having a bit of trouble fully understanding the Trequartista role and have some questions about how to get the best of him.

If the TQ is central as an AM, how do you use the roles around him to create space? And what about his other positions (ST and AML/R)?

How can he adapt to different playstyles like a heavy attack, possesion, counter attack, or low block?

What are the most important attributes for him to affect the game in a more proactive way and why?

How to adapt his positions against formations that heavy mark him (Formations with a DM or with 5 at the back and a flat midfield)

Can you create a deep TQ with generic roles to make him start from deep and then get up to influence your attack?

 

This one is more of a fantasy of mine, but can you create a sort of Messi-like job using 2 players? (For example a TQ with his creative characteristics and on the ball movement and a Striker with his off the ball positioning and deadly finish)

 

If you have some experiences with him please share how did he made your team better and why.

Thank you all, haven't seen to many guides about him so wanted to spark some discussion.

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by sheyner

[sheyner]

Bumping to see if anybody is interested, if not its okay.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, sheyner said:

Bumping to see if anybody is interested, if not its okay.

The problem with answering your question(s) is that it's impossible to look at any role (or element of a tactic) in isolation. TQ can be used in different formations and styles of play (provided you have the right player for the role), but how you should use him really depends on the whole tactical setup. Otherwise, we can only speculate, which usually tends to be misleading. 

[sheyner]

Okay i understand the ambiguity of my questions i'm sorry. Just thought it would be a good topic for disscussion.

I know both my tactics aren't bad but i want to understand more of the role because i don't use him that often but i'm kind of intrigued to see what can happen.

I normally use this tactic against teams that use a central AM and no DM so he is a bit free, but i see him sometimes or too deep or too lost.

This one is more against 2 Strikers and teams without AM and with DMs

I play direct because was seeing my team too soft with the ball and with no penetration(Mostly because of the amount of support roles i think) But direct makes us better with the ball actually (That is one shout i don't understand very well, direct is more vertical but can it be short and vertical or does it just mean long?)

Well, hope this is more contextual and someone can tell me their thought about it.

Thanks for the kind response.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2020 by sheyner
Edit: Just saw i have the game in spanish lol. Will update with English screenshots.

[EnigMattic1]

4 minutes ago, sheyner said:

Okay i understand the ambiguity of my questions i'm sorry. Just thought it would be a good topic for disscussion.

I know both my tactics aren't bad but i want to understand more of the role because i don't use him that often but i'm kind of intrigued to see what can happen.

I normally use this tactic against teams that use a central AM and no DM so he is a bit free, but i see him sometimes or too deep or too lost.

This one is more against 2 Strikers and teams without AM and with DMs

I play direct because was seeing my team too soft with the ball and with no penetration(Mostly because of the amount of support roles i think) But direct makes us better with the ball actually (That is one shout i don't understand very well, direct is more vertical but can it be short and vertical or does it just mean long?)

Well, hope this is more contextual and someone can tell me their thought about it.

Thanks for the kind response.

You will probably have to translate the screenshots in order to get advice. 

On another note, I, too, am also curious about using 2 players to replicate another type of player. Although, I understand this thread is more about the trequartista in general. 

[sheyner]

Yeah, i think Messi can't be replicated in the game but Trequartista is the closest role to the way he plays, just the goalscoring part is really hard to make.

Updated with english screnshots.

Edited March 20, 2020 by sheyner

[FlorianAlbert9]

I love that role.

I find a good play using 2 as AML and AMR (with 2 striker an AP and a F9) . 

usually I use them with play narrow, cut inside, but I want try to left them totally freedom. 

But I find that is an difficult role 'cause the player should be able to make everything. 

 

[zyfon5]

4 hours ago, sheyner said:

Yeah, i think Messi can't be replicated in the game but Trequartista is the closest role to the way he plays, just the goalscoring part is really hard to make.

Updated with english screnshots.

try playing the trequartista in the striker slot and remove any playmaker role so that all the build up will go through him and he will still pop up in goalscoring positions. i have done this with barcelona playing a lopsided two striker system but it is really hard to replicate the goalscoring stats of real life messi. hope it helps

[sheyner]

hace 13 minutos, zyfon5 dijo:

try playing the trequartista in the striker slot and remove any playmaker role so that all the build up will go through him and he will still pop up in goalscoring positions. i have done this with barcelona playing a lopsided two striker system but it is really hard to replicate the goalscoring stats of real life messi. hope it helps

Doesn't the TQ want runners because he often drops deep and roams from position? How would you do this with him as a lone striker? 

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, sheyner said:

I normally use this tactic against teams that use a central AM and no DM so he is a bit free, but i see him sometimes or too deep or too lost.

This one is more against 2 Strikers and teams without AM and with DMs

I am generally opposed to changing the entire formation in order to adapt to the formation used by your opponent. Instead, I prefer to analyze my team and then - based on that analysis - I create a tactic I believe optimally suits my players in terms of their strengths and weaknesses, and it's my primary tactic. So I only need to make small occasional tweaks during a match (depending on what I observe watching it). 

My secondary (reserve) tactic may sometimes involve a different formation, but that formation must be analogous to the one I use in my primary tactic. But when I will use this reserve tactic has nothing to do with an opponent's formation. Rather, I use it only against considerably stronger opponents, regardless of their formation. And that reserve tactic is not overly different from the primary one (just a couple of roles/duties or/and instructions may be tweaked, but nothing more that).

But apart from that, the main problem with both your tactics is that neither of them has a clear tactical identity. In other words, it's hard to figure out what style of football you actually want to play.

That's the first thing you need to decide. Once you sort that out, everything else will be much easier, including the trequartista question.

P.S: whatever style of play you eventually opt for, make sure your players are capable of putting it into action (because each style of football requires a certain type of players).

[sheyner]

hace 3 horas, Experienced Defender dijo:

I am generally opposed to changing the entire formation in order to adapt to the formation used by your opponent. Instead, I prefer to analyze my team and then - based on that analysis - I create a tactic I believe optimally suits my players in terms of their strengths and weaknesses, and it's my primary tactic. So I only need to make small occasional tweaks during a match (depending on what I observe watching it). 

My secondary (reserve) tactic may sometimes involve a different formation, but that formation must be analogous to the one I use in my primary tactic. But when I will use this reserve tactic has nothing to do with an opponent's formation. Rather, I use it only against considerably stronger opponents, regardless of their formation. And that reserve tactic is not overly different from the primary one (just a couple of roles/duties or/and instructions may be tweaked, but nothing more that).

But apart from that, the main problem with both your tactics is that neither of them has a clear tactical identity. In other words, it's hard to figure out what style of football you actually want to play.

That's the first thing you need to decide. Once you sort that out, everything else will be much easier, including the trequartista question.

P.S: whatever style of play you eventually opt for, make sure your players are capable of putting it into action (because each style of football requires a certain type of players).

Okay i understand that.

I was trying to create a vertical tactic that can hold the ball and create something when teams are defensive. Tried to play short passing + lower tempo + offensive mentality but my players where just too tame with the ball, no penetration or too slow and the striker was just non-existent without crosses or set pieces. With direct passing i found that they have good interplay sometimes but they most of the time make a cross to the Striker or the wide forward.

How would you play a offensive tactic without making it hoof ball? I have great creative, technical and fast players (And Haaland that is a monster of his own) and find that i can't take the best out of these characteristics.

Thought that if we build slow from the back, invite pressure and then strike them fast those instructions were the best, but i'm still trying to understand how some instructions translate from the game to the pitch.

[Kharza_FM]

16 minutes ago, sheyner said:

Okay i understand that.

I was trying to create a vertical tactic that can hold the ball and create something when teams are defensive. Tried to play short passing + lower tempo + offensive mentality but my players where just too tame with the ball, no penetration or too slow and the striker was just non-existent without crosses or set pieces. With direct passing i found that they have good interplay sometimes but they most of the time make a cross to the Striker or the wide forward.

How would you play a offensive tactic without making it hoof ball? I have great creative, technical and fast players (And Haaland that is a monster of his own) and find that i can't take the best out of these characteristics.

Thought that if we build slow from the back, invite pressure and then strike them fast those instructions were the best, but i'm still trying to understand how some instructions translate from the game to the pitch.

Have a very similar team make up and deliberately.  Key is pass and move... so let's unpack that first:

Support roles with one attacking role in the front 5 (I like to end up with a fluid shape so my fullbacks are also on support.. more on that at the end).  Use Get Forward PI or PPMs to get more runners forward... personally I like a BBM-S with Get Forward PI to be my midfield "attacker".  So something like this:

 

             CF-S

IW-S                    T-A

       AP-S    BBM-S

 

Now make sure you set your IF-S and AP-S PIs to "Roam From Position".  I also set the BBM-S to "Get Further Forward".

So the press you need to add a higher line of engagement and I set the CF-S, IW-S, AP-S, BBM-S to "Close Down More" as well.  I also personally use the More Urgent TI but you can get away without it.  If you use it with a player that has good Aggression and Work Rate in the T-A role they will press as well.  I generally start with "Positive" mentality but adjust the mentality and tempo depending on what I see.  I like a standard passing width but will sometimes make it shorter (won't go much shorter though) and will adjust the tempo up and down.  The best rule of thumb I've found for the right tempo is to watch the game and have your players pass RIGHT before they are closed down.. this is the ideal tempo.  So you keep tweaking tempo until that situation.  Remember though.. mentality has risk, tempo, AND passing distance implications so make sure you are aware of all 3 when you make a change.

So you should look to have runners at all levels has been my rule of thumb and beyond just Get Forward Instructions and Attack roles one thing I've found that I like a ton is to use the "Overlap Right", "Overlap Left" TI.  It increases the individual mentality of your fullback.  So a FB-S that would normally have a Mentality of Positive turns into an Attacking mentality.. plus has the T-A hold the ball and let the fullback overlap.. it's good because I have my T-A "Sit Narrow" as well see below:

Without TI "Overlap Right"

With TI "Overlap Right"

 

This was my last game I just played

[sheyner]

Okay this makes some things clearer, thanks for explaining the thought behind the instructions. Will try some of these and see what does my team do.

I have some questions though

hace 41 minutos, Kharza_FM dijo:

This was my last game I just played

Great map. i see that the number 8 (this is the CF(S) if i guess correctly) overlaps with  the ap,, but how well does he get into goalscoring position?

Do you use counter press to put more emphasis in controlling the ball? And the counter one? I weren't using for the sake of not having too much pressure instructions (A split block, positive and more extremely urgent so thought it was too much) And counter my team was forcing too much when they got the ball back.

 

Edited March 20, 2020 by sheyner
Added another question

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, sheyner said:

I was trying to create a vertical tactic that can hold the ball and create something when teams are defensive. Tried to play short passing + lower tempo + offensive mentality but my players where just too tame with the ball, no penetration or too slow and the striker was just non-existent without crosses or set pieces. With direct passing i found that they have good interplay sometimes but they most of the time make a cross to the Striker or the wide forward.

First off, instructions need to be in harmony with your setup of roles and duties. And the setup of roles and duties itself needs to be well-balanced and logical in relation to your desired style of play. A good tactic is one in which both the setup of roles and duties and instructions (including the mentality as a special instruction that affect all others) are conducive to the style of play you want to achieve.

The problem with your first (42dm31) tactic is that the setup of roles and duties is suitable for a counter-attacking football, but instructions - except direct passing and early crosses - actually aren't. Actually, the problem with your instructions is that they are neither possession nor counter-oriented. Instead, they are a contradictory mix of both styles.

The problem with your other (4141dm wide) tactic is basically the same + insufficient penetration. Switching the mezzala's duty from support to attack may help considerably in this particular respect, but there still remains the problem with the contradictory instructions as well as disharmony between them and roles/duties. 

I hope this will help you understand where exactly the problems lie. If not, feel free to ask me whatever questions you may have  

1 hour ago, sheyner said:

How would you play a offensive tactic without making it hoof ball?

Depends on which exact type of "offensive" tactic I want to play - patient possession, progressive possession or fast attack? Which in turn depends on which of these would optimally suit my players.

If I knew your players - except for Haaland, whom you mentioned - I would tell you what style of football I personally would prefer for your team. 

[sheyner]

hace 7 minutos, Experienced Defender dijo:

First off, instructions need to be in harmony with your setup of roles and duties. And the setup of roles and duties itself needs to be well-balanced and logical in relation to your desired style of play. A good tactic is one in which both the setup of roles and duties and instructions (including the mentality as a special instruction that affect all others) are conducive to the style of play you want to achieve.

The problem with your first (42dm31) tactic is that the setup of roles and duties is suitable for a counter-attacking football, but instructions - except direct passing and early crosses - actually aren't. Actually, the problem with your instructions is that they are neither possession nor counter-oriented. Instead, they are a contradictory mix of both styles.

The problem with your other (4141dm wide) tactic is basically the same + insufficient penetration. Switching the mezzala's duty from support to attack may help considerably in this particular respect, but there still remains the problem with the contradictory instructions as well as disharmony between them and roles/duties. 

I hope this will help you understand where exactly the problems lie. If not, feel free to ask me whatever questions you may have  

Depends on which exact type of "offensive" tactic I want to play - patient possession, progressive possession or fast attack? Which in turn depends on which of these would optimally suit my players.

If I knew your players - except for Haaland, whom you mentioned - I would tell you what style of football I personally would prefer for your team. 

Thanks, that makes things more clear to me. My initial tactic was more cohesive and had instructions for a progressive possesion but somewhere i deviated too much from that tinkering too much.

Will try some of these ideas with my initial plan and see what happens.

 

I have another question now, what i saw most of the times when trying to create a good possession style, was that my front 3 were too static and the midfield just passed between the lines too ocasionaly. How can i make them move more inside and outside of the area?

[Kharza_FM]

12 minutes ago, sheyner said:

Thanks, that makes things more clear to me. My initial tactic was more cohesive and had instructions for a progressive possession but somewhere i deviated too much from that tinkering too much.

Will try some of these ideas with my initial plan and see what happens.

 

I have another question now, what i saw most of the times when trying to create a good possession style, was that my front 3 were too static and the midfield just passed between the lines too occasionally. How can i make them move more inside and outside of the area?

Hence the "Roam From Position" PI instruction for the front 5 and the desire to have a Fluid shape.. this will cause movement.. moving the defense and creating places to penetrate.  Either in wide positions or centrally.  Remember sometimes that "penetration" is a shot as well.  I have both my AP-S and BBM-S score some great goals from the top of the block lately because the ball movement CREATED the shooting lane for the "penetration".  I clipped a really sweet goal from a game that I'll get up on YouTube that shows the vertical build up I get.  The possession with PURPOSE.. moving the defense will shorter passes and then finding the gap and going vertical and finishing off that.  I personally like using the PIs for Roam but you can also set the TI "Be More Expressive" but the problem is that makes ALL of your players have more Freedom.. and in this case I just want to target my front 5 with the instruction.   This is very much like isolating the front 5 with a "Close Down More" instruction for pressing.. just for creative movement instead.  I consider it the attacking/fluid side of things.

40 minutes ago, sheyner said:

Okay this makes some things clearer, thanks for explaining the thought behind the instructions. Will try some of these and see what does my team do.

I have some questions though

 

Counter-Press is a staple TI for me.  I play a high line so I need to either win the ball back immediately or delay them from being able to go forward and counter on me.  The important instruction in my mind is the "Hold Shape" one.  This makes sure you KEEP the ball AFTER you win it.. i.e. look for a man "deeper".. so backwards to go forwards.  If you have a team that counter presses YOU this is a must have instruction and is better than "Counter".  Counter should be used when you see a team drop off as soon as you win the ball.  Just like in the real game watching the transition in FM is key.  Watch what the other team does in the moment RIGHT after they lose the ball... do they press you?  If so.. use Hold Shape.   Do they drop off?  Then if you have attacking roles to counter with it might make sense to use the "Counter" instruction instead.  If you don't have the roles to exploit a counter.. don't choose either.  These are the types of decisions and trade offs you make WATCHING what happens in the game.  You start from a default state that you know and you adjust based on what you see in the game.

#9 is my CF-S and #8 is my AP-S.  Here are where the 4 goals came from in that game:

My CF-S isn't really involved in the build up.. his job is to finish the moves.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Kharza_FM

[sheyner]

Thank you, it feels nice to disscuss things in this forum, i will now try to understand more things and getting back to my initial tactic with some of your explanations.

Will get back here after some matches to give you my experience.

[Experienced Defender]

30 minutes ago, sheyner said:

I have another question now, what i saw most of the times when trying to create a good possession style, was that my front 3 were too static and the midfield just passed between the lines too ocasionaly. How can i make them move more inside and outside of the area?

I guess you are talking about the 4141dm wide tactic (given that you said "front 3")?

[sheyner]

hace 1 minuto, Experienced Defender dijo:

I guess you are talking about the 4141dm wide tactic (given that you said "front 3")?

Yes, that was my main tactic before i started integrating the 4231. Now i'll get back to the 433 to see if i can find other solutions without changing all my system.

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, sheyner said:

Yes, that was my main tactic before i started integrating the 4231. Now i'll get back to the 433 to see if i can find other solutions without changing all my system.

As I already said earlier - I would switch the mezzala to attack duty, so as to get more penetration from deep and consequently create some more confusion in the opposition defense.

But not only that... I would also look to make the left flank both more dynamic and better balanced (both the flank itself and relative to the rest of the setup). How would I do that? By adding the Overlap left team instruction but at the same time changing the CM on support into a more holding/covering type of role (carrilero or BWM on support, depending on the player playing there).

Like this:

TQ

     CAR/BWMsu  MEZat

WBsu

In terms of instructions - besides adding the overlap left - I would definitely:

- remove the Focus through the middle (because I don't want to limit my player's options, especially when I play against defensive opposition, which will naturally pack the middle and make it too congested already)

- change both passing and tempo (passing to shorter and tempo to standard), because this combination generally works best under the Positive mentality in a tactical style that looks to control the play

These are the changes/tweaks I would definitely make first. Other potential tweaks would really have to depend on the type of your players. Because I don't know whether they are good enough to play certain roles.

[zyfon5]

14 hours ago, sheyner said:

Doesn't the TQ want runners because he often drops deep and roams from position? How would you do this with him as a lone striker? 

Ya that's why u need to play it with a two striker system or play a false 10 role in your team like shadow striker or raumdeuter