Atletico Madrid Struggles 4-4-2

[TheFanatikz]

I am currently two thirds of the way through my first season as Atletico Madrid and i cannot find any type of consistancy!

I choose Atleti because i they are very well suited to a 4-4-2 which is by far my favourite formation. I have been trying to play a little like they do irl as in sit back and hit people on the counter

while also being hard to break down. This dosent seem to be working!

I would really like evrything to go through Saul and Koke as they are incredible passers of the ball and generally good all round.

Having beaten Barcelona 2-1 away then losing 6-1 to Bilbao, i am now tasked wiht needing 11 points from 5 games to avoid the sack!

Any help to keep me gamefully employed and help build to the future would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[yellowforever]

Although Atleti are great on the counter, a good 1/3 of the games you're going to play will be against teams who just sit back and you need to find a way to break them down.

1. Lower DL and LOE is fine at the Bernabeu and the Camp Nou but you'll cede too much of the ball against the weaker teams

2. Not a fan of only having one attack duty. I'd make Lodi a WB (A) and Correa a W (A).  Trippier as a FB (S) behind and get him to 'cross from deep'

3. Lemar may be left footed but on my Atletico save he was probably my best player cutting in from the left as a WP. You could give that or a IW a go to make space for Lodi going forward.

4. With Lodi going forward you might want Trippier to be a bit safer - I'd try him as FB (S) and cross from deep.

5. If you want to funnel the ball through Saul and Koke a lot I'd change them to roles that naturally attract passes more. All of the playmaker roles tend to be ball magnets rather than standard CMs. Maybe Koke as DLP (D) and Saul as AP (s)? Two playmakers next to each other doesn't always work but might be worth a go.

Just some thoughts, feel free to discount them. I made a reasonable Simeone 4-4-2 in the Beta with some of these features.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, TheFanatikz said:

I have been trying to play a little like they do irl as in sit back and hit people on the counter

while also being hard to break down. This dosent seem to be working!

Such a strategy (usually) works when you are the underdog in a match, because the opponent is looking to attack you, which creates space behind/between their lines for you to exploit via counter-attacks. But ATM is not an underdog team by any means, given their current reputation and strength. 

But even if the circumstances were ideal for you to implement such style of football, you would still need to improve your tactic a lot.

First, it's very one-dimensional, especially on the flanks, which are literally mirroring each other in terms of roles and duties (WBsu/Wsu combo on both flanks).

Then, you are overcomplicating your defensive instructions. I understand that you want to draw the opposition deep into your half (much lower LOE) and then press them quickly and aggressively to win the ball back (extremely urgent pressing) and hit them on the counter before they consolidate defensively. Which is a good idea, but the problem is that you are trying to implement it by applying extreme measures.

There is no need either for much lower LOE, nor extremely urgent pressing. Much lower LOE means you are allowing the opposition to put you under too much pressure - more than necessary - and for extended periods of time. When most of the play is concentrated in and around your box so much, your defense is eventually going to capitulate more often than not, no matter how good your players are. Therefore, just lower LOE is quite enough (instead of much lower). 

The same basically applies to the extremely urgent pressing. Such a needlessly aggressive manner of pressing might make sense if you played on a lower mentality (like cautious or defensive). But on the Positive mentality, your pressing intensity/urgency is already high enough on its default setting. Therefore, drop the pressing to default (slightly more urgent) instead of extremely urgent, and add the the Get stuck in. 

So these should IMHO be your out-of-possession instructions if you play on the Positive mentality: standard DL, lower LOE and get stuck in. 

As for tight marking... not sure if it's necessary. Try to play both with and without it, and see what works better for your team.

Now, let's get to the attacking/counter-attacking side of your tactic. There are different ways in which you can set up roles, duties and instructions - taking always the mentality into account as a very important factor - depending on which particular type of counter-attacking football you want to play. But if you want to play counter-attacking football using the 442 formation, then it's advisable to have both strikers on attack duty, but preferably in different roles. Good role combinations for the strikers include:

- TQ/PFat

- TQ/AF

- TQ/PO

- TQ/TMat

- DLFat/AF

- DLFat/PO

- DLFat/PFat

- DLFat/TMat

- CFat/PFat

- CFat/PO

- CFat/AF

- TMat/PFat

- TMat/AF

- TMat/CFat

- TMat/CFat

Which one you should choose depends on both the type of counter-attacking football you want to play and, of course, the type of your players. Also pay attention to their stronger foot when deciding who will play on which side.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask 

[carloshcorbalan]

.

All right....

Experienced defender ...... publish images and general and individual tactical orders, to copy and test according to your vision ..

[TheFanatikz]

@yellowforever @Experienced Defender Greatly appreciated the advice

Saw some positive changes in the way we played during the first match, but at the end of season now so will reserve judgement until a few more games played (providing I dont get sacked).

In rergards to tough away fixtures i.e Barca, Real, Valencia and possible Champions League opponents, would possibly changing the metalitly be ok in order to keep to the tactical identity?

[yellowforever]

2 hours ago, TheFanatikz said:

@yellowforever @Experienced Defender Greatly appreciated the advice

Saw some positive changes in the way we played during the first match, but at the end of season now so will reserve judgement until a few more games played (providing I dont get sacked).

In rergards to tough away fixtures i.e Barca, Real, Valencia and possible Champions League opponents, would possibly changing the metalitly be ok in order to keep to the tactical identity?

Dropping the mentality a bit is not a bad idea away from home. 

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, carloshcorbalan said:

All right....

Experienced defender ...... publish images and general and individual tactical orders, to copy and test according to your vision ..

If you are looking for a plug'n'play sort of tactic, I fear I'm not the right person, sorry 

[nugatti]

Lots of sensible input for you here, I’ll also add this as it’s kinda right up your alley

It is a follow-up video as well, showing  his next match after the changes. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by nugatti

[carloshcorbalan]

hace 3 horas, Experienced Defender dijo:

Si estás buscando una táctica tipo plug and play, me temo que no soy la persona adecuada, lo siento. 

I'm not looking for that...
Just see your written thoughts in pictures ...
Thank you as well...

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, carloshcorbalan said:

I'm not looking for that...
Just see your written thoughts in pictures

I cannot post pictures because I play FM on another device, but I can present a possible counter-attacking 442 tactic for Atletico in this way:

Roles and duties

TQ    PFat

 

IWsu    CMde  BBM   WMsu

 

FBat    CDde  BPDde  WBsu

SKsu

Mentality - Balanced or Positive

In possession: play out of defence, higher tempo, be more expressive

In transtion: counter

Out of possession: standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in

But a tactic like this is probably not going to work against weaker opposition. 

[carloshcorbalan]

.    Gracias....

[Enzo_Francescoli]

For a quick reference, AI Simeone regularly uses this formation:

                                   PF(d)                     DLF(s)

W(a)                          DLP(s)                   MEZ(a)                                IW(s)

FB(s)                          CD(d)                    CD(d)                                  FB(a)

                                                    SK(d)

He (it?) usually goes with a Fluid Counter or Vertical Tiki-taka playing style, both of which utilizes shorter passing and intense pressing. I believe that's more or less true to his real life style. His counter attacks are lightning-quick, true, but there's no hoofing for Atletico, they're more based on short, but fast combinations.

Now, I've tested that formation, and it doesn't quite work. After watching a lot of games on comprehensive, I've concluded that the reason why it doesn't work is.. because it just doesn't.. There's no one or two main issue that makes that setup not very effective. For example, that striker combination works surprisingly well, they score goals, they come back to defend and they counter-balance the more adventurous center midfield. Granted, I tested it in the French Ligue 2. You need to have the players is what I'm trying to say. AI Simeone uses Saúl as the mezzala, which probably makes him the most defensively reliable mezzala in this world. An so on.

In real life, he plays differently this year with Griezmann, Rodri, Hernandez gone and Saúl kind of sucking.

 

This is my attempt at last year's Atletico:

 

:

 

This year, it's more of a midfield diamond in possession, with Partey a clear playmaker in front of the defense, with a much more expansive passing range than Rodri had, The latter just recycled the ball and featured heavily in the build-up, which is what a DLP on defend does in the game. This year, both the fullbacks go forward, as they are the ones to provide width, beacuse Koke comes inside to join Saúl in front of Partey, and whoever the attacking wide player is, he's an AMC in possession. Saúl almost plays like a Carrilero this year, he stays wider and covers. In no way are both strikers on an attack duty in a Simeone system. He usually plays the combination one big powerful guy and a shadow striker type who links play. Both of them press like madmen and come back to midfield if necessary, so no Trequartista there, either. There are one or two games at most every year when Simeone goes with a low block like that one in the OP. He even played with a high d-line away against Juventus. That game, Atletico was very compact (lower LOE), but they press very high when they see fit. That changes inbetween games, even during games. 

In conclusion, there are clear templates when designing a Simeone-esque system: fluid setup, tactical discipline, quick counters, 4-4-2 defensive shape, localized but intense pressing. In FM terms, that's a lot of support duties, higher tempo, pressing urgency via PI's and generally a bunch of players with work rate, teamwork, composure, concentration. Other than that, you probably have to adapt the tactic week-to-week, like real life Simeone does.

[Boydo]

On 07/01/2020 at 22:20, Experienced Defender said:

But if you want to play counter-attacking football using the 442 formation, then it's advisable to have both strikers on attack duty, but preferably in different roles.

This piece of advice has completely turned my tactic around. I had never previously thought that two attack duties up front would work, but my new combination of AF(A) + TM(A) are banging them in for fun on the counter. Coupled with "hit early crosses", we're now challenging for promotion in the Vanarama National South. Thanks @Experienced Defender!

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Boydo said:

This piece of advice has completely turned my tactic around. I had never previously thought that two attack duties up front would work, but my new combination of AF(A) + TM(A) are banging them in for fun on the counter. Coupled with "hit early crosses", we're now challenging for promotion in the Vanarama National South. Thanks @Experienced Defender!

Honestly, the very idea of both strikers on attack duties originally belongs to @Rashidi or at least I first learned that from a video on his YT channel. Of course, speaking of normal and sensible tactics, not exploits.

[Rashidi]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Honestly, the very idea of both strikers on attack duties originally belongs to @Rashidi or at least I first learned that from a video on his YT channel. Of course, speaking of normal and sensible tactics, not exploits.

Thanks for the heads up.

On 08/01/2020 at 04:07, TheFanatikz said:

I would really like evrything to go through Saul and Koke as they are incredible passers of the ball and generally good all round.

Having beaten Barcelona 2-1 away then losing 6-1 to Bilbao, i am now tasked wiht needing 11 points from 5 games to avoid the sack

I would agree with everything Experienced Defender has mentioned. I have played a 442 with Hoffenheim last season which was modelled on a simple concept, draw teams into a compressed block and then hit them fast and hard on the counter. What I also wanted was the option to have wingbacks free to make the cross, and for wide midfielders to along with the 2 central midfielders providing constant passing pressure on the opposition. Basically any one of the 4 should be able to play the pass. 

Making a team compressed involves a lot of things, LOE and DL aren't everything. You also need to consider roles, visualise how you want them to play and then execute your playstyle.

I wanted my WMs to be in positions where when my keeper plays the ball out from the back they would control the oppositions half spaces, I also wanted my fullbacks to be as wide as possible to stretch the field of play. My two strikers should be on the shoulder of the last player.

When we lose the ball I wanted to have a compressed block of 8, when we win the ball I wanted to be able to pass the ball as effectively as possible through each tier. My backs would be free to overlap or to ping crosses in without being blocked, and my two central players would have plenty of passing options.

To do that I did something very very simple.

I played with WBs, a BPD and CD(NCB) in defence
2 WMs and a RPM/CAR 

In attack I used a TM(A)/PF(A) or TM(A)/AF(A) or DLF(A)/PF(A)

When i met teams who had average defenders I would use the TM(A) combination in attack, my WBs were told to cross aim target man, and I played on positive mentality.

My team was told to play a standard line of defence with a low line of engagement, nothing more was done with pressing. In other words I used the roles and the positioning they create in defence and the LOE itself to create the compressed blocks. I employed players with good positioning in defence. My WMs ideally would have good passing, crossing and attributes to keep the ball.
 

Here i used the roles to help me be compressed instead of wingers i used WMs who aren't as crazy going forward as wingers. No one says you have to use WMs but once you recognise that there are many ways you can play a 442 things become quite fun. I am not sure if the video is still there, but I will release an updated Maves 442 video for FM20 soon. The instructions are still the same from FM19, i changed nothing for FM20 and it still works. I find that if you create some basically well thought tactics with sensible player selection you should do well on any version of FM.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Thanks for the heads up

You are welcome, as always. 

 

4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I have played a 442 with Hoffenheim last season

The specific tactic I was referring to was not the Hoffenheim 442, but a 4312 you used with Stalybridge while you still were in a lower league (below the EPL). That was the 1st one where you employed 2 attack-duty strikers - PO and AF. I'm sure you remember that tactic. Hoffenheim came later.