Youth training and loans

[Teep]

Decided to tackle training for this year, I've read some great stuff from @Rashidi and various people here and on youtube on how to setup training and develop your regens and younger players.

However, I still see most people on "Let's play" series loaning out massively. Provided they're playing in your reserve (under 23-20-19-18-you name it), wouldn't it be more effective to keep them at the club to heavily focus their training? Or is [first team football in higher leagues than reserve + good&higher training facilities] actually providing better results?

 

Thanks!

[Rashidi]

General rules of thumb I follow

1. If a player is 18 years old, he must play regularly, but he shouldn't be overplayed. He still needs time to train.

2. Playing time with first team is valuable but only if he is good enough and its in games we can actually win

3. If a 4-5 star player is 18 years old and he hasn't got the attributes to play in my first team. I have failed at my job. There is absolutely no reason why a high potential youth player can't be good enough to start at least cup games in your first team squad. This usually points to a problem with the youth team. Check youth team for excessive injuries/ poor training schedules

I usually only keep 1-2 players of 4-5 star potential in my club. Nearly every other player is loaned out, and only to clubs who are playing competitively and where my player gets game time. 

The reason why i don't like leaving them in the U23s. There are some leagues where the U23 is actually a death sentence for development. They hardly have competitions worth playing in, so you need to continually check their schedule or loan them out as well, or go create competitions for them. Even in my saves, the worst players in the club, the ones i want to sell or haven't got time for are in the U23s. My vault, my future, my prized assets are my youth team. And from these prized assets ONLY the very best stay at the age of 18 walk into my first team. The ones who have the potential or are nearly there are loaned out, these are usually my 3-4 stars. The ones who have low potential are there to make up the numbers. I do track how each and every player is doing. 

If you manage the youth teams well, you can get some explosive development. And these players out on loan - if they go to good clubs with good facilities they can sometimes surprise you. One of my best experiences was seeing a 4 star player who had some potential spend around 3 seasons back in Portugal playing for Sporting Lisbon on loan. I was disappointed he didn't walk into my first team. He spent 3 years there on loan as i considered his future. With his contract running out in a year I brought him back. His loan reports were crazy good, when he came back he walked into my first team at the age of 21 and became one of the greatest players i ever had. 

This approach works, very very well. Actually too well, but seeing the new interactive trailer by SI I guess thats the best approach to take. If you can't play him at the age of 18 in your club, you have to play him somewhere where he has the chance to prove himself. Take your team and find the right team for him.

[Teep]

Thanks for the amazing answer. My worry was that some PA points would be wasted if trained wrong, but I guess it's no longer an issue after 18. Will try to apply that in my FM20 save!

[Teme55]

How can you increase your chances of getting better players (high PA) from youth intake?

[ashlfcowen]

On 31/10/2019 at 02:26, Rashidi said:

General rules of thumb I follow

1. If a player is 18 years old, he must play regularly, but he shouldn't be overplayed. He still needs time to train.

2. Playing time with first team is valuable but only if he is good enough and its in games we can actually win

3. If a 4-5 star player is 18 years old and he hasn't got the attributes to play in my first team. I have failed at my job. There is absolutely no reason why a high potential youth player can't be good enough to start at least cup games in your first team squad. This usually points to a problem with the youth team. Check youth team for excessive injuries/ poor training schedules

I usually only keep 1-2 players of 4-5 star potential in my club. Nearly every other player is loaned out, and only to clubs who are playing competitively and where my player gets game time. 

The reason why i don't like leaving them in the U23s. There are some leagues where the U23 is actually a death sentence for development. They hardly have competitions worth playing in, so you need to continually check their schedule or loan them out as well, or go create competitions for them. Even in my saves, the worst players in the club, the ones i want to sell or haven't got time for are in the U23s. My vault, my future, my prized assets are my youth team. And from these prized assets ONLY the very best stay at the age of 18 walk into my first team. The ones who have the potential or are nearly there are loaned out, these are usually my 3-4 stars. The ones who have low potential are there to make up the numbers. I do track how each and every player is doing. 

If you manage the youth teams well, you can get some explosive development. And these players out on loan - if they go to good clubs with good facilities they can sometimes surprise you. One of my best experiences was seeing a 4 star player who had some potential spend around 3 seasons back in Portugal playing for Sporting Lisbon on loan. I was disappointed he didn't walk into my first team. He spent 3 years there on loan as i considered his future. With his contract running out in a year I brought him back. His loan reports were crazy good, when he came back he walked into my first team at the age of 21 and became one of the greatest players i ever had. 

This approach works, very very well. Actually too well, but seeing the new interactive trailer by SI I guess thats the best approach to take. If you can't play him at the age of 18 in your club, you have to play him somewhere where he has the chance to prove himself. Take your team and find the right team for him.

For those youth players who are the exception (4-5) stars do you keep them in the first team?

If you are not overplaying them do you feel like they are getting maximum benefit of training seeing as most first teams play 2 games a week therefore training is mostly recovery + prepping for games.

[extremeskins04]

So @Rashidi a few things:

1. If the player is 18 years old, he must play regularly.  Does that mean he really needs Senior Squad soccer?  And if he doesn't have a place on your first team, then is it still okay to keep him in the U23 squad? Or do we need to loan him out?

2. There have been many instances where a good potential kid that is 18 isn't quite good enough for first team, but he's probably too good for U23 team.  If I loan him out to another team in the Premiere League, he doesn't get to play regularly and is only a "Squad Player".  Am I supposed to loan him out to a Championship team or even a Sky Bet One team so he can be a "Regular Starter"?

3. How much does it hinder development by keeping a player in my U23 squad (if he's 18-22 years old)?  What if I'm playing with Man Utd and our training and youth facilities are "state of the art"?  

I guess I'm still confused on how to handle these youngsters.

Edited November 14, 2019 by extremeskins04

[Seb Wassell]

Broadly the best advice is this:

<18 training and mentoring are paramount, with match time important but secondary

18< match time is paramount, with training and mentoring important but secondary

Match time must be at an appropriate level for the player's ability

[extremeskins04]

1 hour ago, Seb Wassell said:

Broadly the best advice is this:

<18 training and mentoring are paramount, with match time important but secondary

18< match time is paramount, with training and mentoring important but secondary

Match time must be at an appropriate level for the player's ability

But Seb with the new mentoring features this year, you can't mentor a player or "add the player to your mentoring group" unless he's on the Senior Squad.  So a player that is less than 18 years old is not going to get that mentoring.  Right?

[Seb Wassell]

8 hours ago, extremeskins04 said:

But Seb with the new mentoring features this year, you can't mentor a player or "add the player to your mentoring group" unless he's on the Senior Squad.  So a player that is less than 18 years old is not going to get that mentoring.  Right?

More personality than mentoring. It's important throughout, but the earlier they obtain a positive personality (whether it be naturally or via mentoring) the better of course. Once you're loaning a player out, you have no control over that side. Players with poor personalities can of course still develop (in fact, the progression module is designed specifically in this way) but you're simply increasing your chances of a favourable outcome. Personalities shift based on in-game events, development and the people around the player, mentoring is simply a tool in which you can bias this last part.

[amberhelix]

Seb, extremeskins04 is pointing out a problem since mentoring was introduced last year. You can't mentor non-1st team players anymore with your senior pros so how do they get mentored under 18 years? My real world knowledge is of Liverpool and the better young players train permanently with the 1st team despite being U23 squad in reality. Why in FM do we suggest that the 1st team can't influence these boys anymore unless they're all moved to the 1st squad which is not feasible?

[fmFutbolManager]

1 hour ago, amberhelix said:

Seb, extremeskins04 is pointing out a problem since mentoring was introduced last year. You can't mentor non-1st team players anymore with your senior pros so how do they get mentored under 18 years? My real world knowledge is of Liverpool and the better young players train permanently with the 1st team despite being U23 squad in reality. Why in FM do we suggest that the 1st team can't influence these boys anymore unless they're all moved to the 1st squad which is not feasible?

Think you just answered your own question?

Move the better young players to your first team and make them available for whichever youth squad they play in. This way they train with the first team and can be mentored, but also get football.

Look at most teams, Man United, for example. The kids from as young as 9 up to the under 23s don't train with the first team, they're not even in the same training complex, so it would be daft that say Rashford could mentor a 15 year old when they're never in the same place. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by fmFutbolManager

[fmFutbolManager]

On 14/11/2019 at 20:46, extremeskins04 said:

So @Rashidi a few things:

1. If the player is 18 years old, he must play regularly.  Does that mean he really needs Senior Squad soccer?  And if he doesn't have a place on your first team, then is it still okay to keep him in the U23 squad? Or do we need to loan him out?

2. There have been many instances where a good potential kid that is 18 isn't quite good enough for first team, but he's probably too good for U23 team.  If I loan him out to another team in the Premiere League, he doesn't get to play regularly and is only a "Squad Player".  Am I supposed to loan him out to a Championship team or even a Sky Bet One team so he can be a "Regular Starter"?

3. How much does it hinder development by keeping a player in my U23 squad (if he's 18-22 years old)?  What if I'm playing with Man Utd and our training and youth facilities are "state of the art"?  

I guess I'm still confused on how to handle these youngsters.

Not to answer for Rashidi but your coaches will tell you his level, e.g., playing at a Championship level. Go on what your coaches recommend. If he's a good Championship player then loan him out to a Championship side would guarantee he will play games for you. 

Training facilities are not as important as game time in this age bracket, so get them loaned out if you can, but only to a club at his current ability so he can play. 

[amberhelix]

Just now, fmFutbolManager said:

Move the better young players to your first team and make them available for whichever youth squad they play in

That's an obvious solution I'm not daft, but if you do it in-game there is no point to the U23s is there? Any good player has to be moved? Ten 17 year olds just sat in my 1st team as a workaround? My problem is that FM is saying that the 1st team squad don't influence youth team players which is nonsense in reality. There is already an option in training for youths to train with the 1st team groups which is realistic - these selected youths should be able to be mentored - that seems simple to me. 

[fmFutbolManager]

2 hours ago, amberhelix said:

That's an obvious solution I'm not daft, but if you do it in-game there is no point to the U23s is there? Any good player has to be moved? Ten 17 year olds just sat in my 1st team as a workaround? My problem is that FM is saying that the 1st team squad don't influence youth team players which is nonsense in reality. There is already an option in training for youths to train with the 1st team groups which is realistic - these selected youths should be able to be mentored - that seems simple to me. 

Do you not think SI researched how it works in the real world before making this change?

It was unrealistic that you could pair up every single kid in your under 18s with your top pros for mentoring on and off the pitch when they're not even training together.

It works as one would expect, if you have a superstar on your hands you might invite him to the first team to train and mentor from one of your pros, but it's unrealistic that you get everyone matched up.

I refer back to Man United, sometimes a couple of the higher rated players would train and be a part of the match day squads but still play for the under 23s, but they wouldn't invite all players up, would they. 

 

[amberhelix]

1 minute ago, fmFutbolManager said:

Do you not think SI researched how it works in the real world before making this change?

It was unrealistic that you could pair up every single kid in your under 18s with your top pros for mentoring on and off the pitch when they're not even training together.

It works as one would expect, if you have a superstar on your hands you might invite him to the first team to train and mentor from one of your pros, but it's unrealistic that you get everyone matched up.

I refer back to Man United, sometimes a couple of the higher rated players would train and be a part of the match day squads but still play for the under 23s, but they wouldn't invite all players up, would they.

I think we're actually agreeing on how real life works, I just don't agree you should have to literally have them sit in your 1st team squad in FM. U18 team sure, they're a bit more distant from the seniors, but U23s should be able to be mentored without moving squads. As you say - the decent ones train with the senior team, they're mentored by them, they're even with them on matchdays. They are being mentored in real life but they're not 1st team. I guess it's down to individual preference - I don't want a huge 1st team squad page filled with youngsters that are there to bypass a game limitation. It breaks immersion for me.

[Seb Wassell]

@amberhelix

Thanks for your answers @fmFutbolManager

To add/clarify - Tutoring was unrealistic and exploitative. Part-based on real world advice and part-based on gameplay we moved to replace it with Mentoring.

Players must be in the same squad to mentor one another. Having them simply train in the same Unit is not enough. Broadly, players can learn two things from others: on-field Player Traits and off-field Personalities. Training together can be enough for the former, but for the latter you need to spend more time together than just ~90 minutes in training each day. Further to this, first team players at a Champions League club will often find themselves away from the training ground for the majority of the week, whether it be playing mid-week matches, travelling, recovering or partaking in away matches. As such, for a player to actually learn from another they need to be in the same squad, on the same schedule, spending time together both on and off the training pitch. A youngster that is simply in the same training Unit as a senior player may struggle to actually spend enough time with that player.

The decision you need to make is this: Does my young player benefit more from training with his peers, on a training schedule that is likely more suited to his stage of development and his mapped out specifically around the U23 matches he is expected to play in but without much contact with the first team; or does he benefit more from being a part of the first team squad, training on a schedule that is not necessarily designed for him and being detached from the training/squad that he is expected to play for but spending time with experienced, senior players and learning from them. Of course, your decision is your own and situation dependent. The advice @Rashidi offers is promote only your most promising, most likely to be future first team players, to the senior squad, where they will benefit, leaving the rest to develop with their peers, where they are more suited. For a real life example, consider how Real Madrid have dealt with Odegaard, Vinicius, Rodrygo and the remainder of the youth/Castilla in their time so far.

[amberhelix]

@Seb Wassell   

Thanks for the detailed reply Seb, appreciate it. I agree Tutoring was exploited but I'm still not sure Mentoring needs to be so strict as a solution. I feel the development pathway coaches employed at top clubs link the U23 elites to the 1st teams in a more nuanced way than in-game right now. I only know Liverpool in real life:

Vitor Matos is Liverpool's 'Elite Development Coach' - he selects the elite U23s that should be moved to the full 1st team schedule and personally oversees them. In-game he is a 1st team coach but it's not that simple in reality. I just feel these specific players (which in-game would be 'move to train with 1st team units') are definitely being mentored by the senior pros more than 90 mins training. They travel on the Champions League schedule despite not playing, and can miss U23 fixtures if being with the 1st team is preferable case by case. The job role is literally called the 'bridge' at Liverpool - it facilitates 1st team access for chosen U23s that isn't just a spot of training. I'd argue it's mentoring.

I guess you can argue it either way, it's just opinion. Everything above could be viewed as moving them to the 1st team and we're back at the start of the discussion!

[Seb Wassell]

12 minutes ago, amberhelix said:

I guess you can argue it either way, it's just opinion. Everything above could be viewed as moving them to the 1st team and we're back at the start of the discussion!

I would indeed argue that what have you described (appreciated) is that player being moved into the first team squad, which is one of the options within what we are trying to recreate.

Is there a difference or different process that you envisage here?

[amberhelix]

5 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Is there a difference or different process that you envisage here?

No, just have my own opinion on the strict mentoring rules in-game and appreciated the discussion. I love the game either way. My thought is still that elite U23s are more integrated and mentored in real life than the game allows without moving squads. Maybe this is only at top clubs with the facility to do it.

I guess the real truth is that I don't like having the youth sat padding out my 1st team to fulfill a mentor requirement rather than genuinely wanting them there because they're ready. Personal preference. I hate having a squad so large you have to scroll through - I run a tight ship and don't suffer benchwarmers! I realise this doesn't bother some people so I'll stop now...