How to make DM perform like Playmaker

[robman90]

Is their any way in the player instructions and PPM's to make a DM role perform like a playmaker (DLP) without just changing the role? I want to avoid the passing routes all going through this role.

[3LionsFM]

Well a key feature of a playmaker is to have most passing routes go through them. 

[summatsupeer]

Not really, playmakers get more creative freedom to do what they think is best and not only do teammates try to feed them the ball they also go to try and collect it.

You can add PI to make them take more risks with the ball but a DLP doesn't always try and be risky with the ball so won't be the same.  If you want a player to link play the normal roles will do that but they're expected to be better defensively since they will typically see less of the ball to make use of there ball playing ability.

What do you want that player to do in your tactic?

[westy8chimp]

6 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

What do you want that player to do in your tactic?

This is important... if you don't want passing routes to him... then I assume you just want to add more direct passes (but as summat says... that's not really what makes a playmaker a playmaker).

Essentially you can't mimic a playmaker by using PI.  You can add more risk or more direct passing (or shorter passing etc) but you can't add the 'magnetism' of other players... or the way a playmaker constantly makes themselves available for the pass, eloquently put below.

8 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

not only do teammates try to feed them the ball they also go to try and collect it

It sounds like you don't want a playmaker, you just want a DM I'm guessing... that plays through balls/long balls. Add PI more direct passes, more risky passes... train PPM 'tries killer balls' or 'plays through balls' or 'attempts long passes' etc

[herne79]

It's not just the role that makes a DLP, it's also the player.  Combine the DLP role with lets say Toni Kroos and you've probably got a winning combination.  Combine the DLP role with Casemiro on the other hand and, well, not so much.  Technical ability, PPMs and the role default PIs all play a part.

But here you want to use a non "playmaker" role as a kind of playmaker but without other players channelling play through him.  So break it down between player and role:

1) The player will need the technical ability (and perhaps relevant PPMs) to be able to play as a pseudo-DLP.  So Kroos not Casemiro.

2) The role will need relevant PIs.  OK, they can be added in but you need to also take into account the set PIs which these other roles come with that cannot be changed.  The closest you'll get is by using the DM(s) role/duty which doesn't have any default PIs and thus you can fully customise it.  The downside there is the support duty - does a support duty player in the DM position fit in with your system?  If not then you'll need to look at the defend duty options (DM, HB, AM, BWM) and apply the same logic.  So would Kroos (for example) be ok with a customised DM(d) role/duty bearing in mind the additional closing down that's set by default?

TL;DR it is possible but take into account the player you intend to use as well as the customised role you create.

[thizaum]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

It's not just the role that makes a DLP, it's also the player.  Combine the DLP role with lets say Toni Kroos and you've probably got a winning combination.  Combine the DLP role with Casemiro on the other hand and, well, not so much.  Technical ability, PPMs and the role default PIs all play a part.

But here you want to use a non "playmaker" role as a kind of playmaker but without other players channelling play through him.  So break it down between player and role:

1) The player will need the technical ability (and perhaps relevant PPMs) to be able to play as a pseudo-DLP.  So Kroos not Casemiro.

2) The role will need relevant PIs.  OK, they can be added in but you need to also take into account the set PIs which these other roles come with that cannot be changed.  The closest you'll get is by using the DM(s) role/duty which doesn't have any default PIs and thus you can fully customise it.  The downside there is the support duty - does a support duty player in the DM position fit in with your system?  If not then you'll need to look at the defend duty options (DM, HB, AM, BWM) and apply the same logic.  So would Kroos (for example) be ok with a customised DM(d) role/duty bearing in mind the additional closing down that's set by default?

TL;DR it is possible but take into account the player you intend to use as well as the customised role you create.

Very well put.

Now, I don't mean to hijack the topic, but it just got me thinking. About what I was talking in the other topic about the roles and PIs, and you made a comment about the problem with the AI not using the PIs.

What if in the next FM, they gave us the option to access the hidden attributes of the roles and also create new ones with them? Just like you can create a new formation?

And then, the AI should be able to read them and "add to their library" these created roles. I don't know how the ME reads and applies the roles, but I would think that this is feasable in the current ME.

I don't mean to sound contradictory, but we could have less "original" roles and then give the players all the tools and freedom to create what they want. I would guess that an ordinary player would know how to use a role that he created himself better than one he's never heard of and had to read ingame descriptions, forums and watch the matches.

 

[westy8chimp]

13 minutes ago, thizaum said:

And then, the AI should be able to read them and "add to their library" these created roles.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

You could then setup a 1000 purposefully rubbish roles and just 11 sensible ones as an exploit. Probability wise the AI would pick 11 stupid roles and you could select the 11 good roles.

Even if there was no cheating... when you think of the role and PI etc you are tying it into a formation. The AI would just plug it in with no wider picture.

 

[robman90]

Cheers for the replies everyone. BTW player is Seb Rudy with Stuttgart. Currently playing him in DM(S) role with More Direct Passes PI and training some playmaker-type PPM's along with his current ones. 

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

It's not just the role that makes a DLP, it's also the player.  Combine the DLP role with lets say Toni Kroos and you've probably got a winning combination.  Combine the DLP role with Casemiro on the other hand and, well, not so much.  Technical ability, PPMs and the role default PIs all play a part.

 But here you want to use a non "playmaker" role as a kind of playmaker but without other players channelling play through him.  So break it down between player and role:

1) The player will need the technical ability (and perhaps relevant PPMs) to be able to play as a pseudo-DLP.  So Kroos not Casemiro.

2) The role will need relevant PIs.  OK, they can be added in but you need to also take into account the set PIs which these other roles come with that cannot be changed.  The closest you'll get is by using the DM(s) role/duty which doesn't have any default PIs and thus you can fully customise it.  The downside there is the support duty - does a support duty player in the DM position fit in with your system?  If not then you'll need to look at the defend duty options (DM, HB, AM, BWM) and apply the same logic.  So would Kroos (for example) be ok with a customised DM(d) role/duty bearing in mind the additional closing down that's set by default?

TL;DR it is possible but take into account the player you intend to use as well as the customised role you create.

Really useful, cheers

Will experiment further and post findings. I think I want the player to play longer passes and be available for passes to support attacking moves (hence support role) but not attract the ball more than others.

[westy8chimp]

2 minutes ago, robman90 said:

BTW player is Seb Rudy with Stuttgart

ah now I get it... recreating the role he had at Hoffenheim to trigger attacks from deep?

[thizaum]

15 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

You could then setup a 1000 purposefully rubbish roles and just 11 sensible ones as an exploit. Probability wise the AI would pick 11 stupid roles and you could select the 11 good roles.

Even if there was no cheating... when you think of the role and PI etc you are tying it into a formation. The AI would just plug it in with no wider picture.

 

Only if the AI is dumb. I was considering that it wasn't.

Why doesn't it do this (use bad roles) already? What's the difference?

[westy8chimp]

1 minute ago, thizaum said:

Only if the AI is dumb. I was considering that it wasn't.

Why doesn't it do this (use bad roles) already? What's the difference?

They work within the confines of the original roles. And I believe managers have a preferred formation with preset roles.

It's part of the reason, alongside helping new players or players that want to be spoon fed, why we have specialist roles, it's so the AI can be preset to have an BBM instead of a CM with get further forward etc

[robman90]

41 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

ah now I get it... recreating the role he had at Hoffenheim to trigger attacks from deep?

Exactly, one of my favourite German players in FM along with Weigl, Arp and others

[Gegenklaus]

59 minutes ago, robman90 said:

Exactly, one of my favourite German players in FM along with Weigl, Arp and others

Weigl is king. My favorite player through FM 17 and FM 18. I have experimented myself with just using a DM(s) with Weigl and had great succes. I did compromise with the backline behind him - using quite defensive players. 

[robman90]

29 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Weigl is king. My favorite player through FM 17 and FM 18. I have experimented myself with just using a DM(s) with Weigl and had great succes. I did compromise with the backline behind him - using quite defensive players. 

I used Weigl as a Half Back at Spurs for about 7/8 years in my first save on FM18

[herne79]

@Gegenklaus mind the language in this forum please.