The dark arts of Playmaking

[roger_rs]

Hello everyone,

As we know playmakers differ from the other roles by being ball magnets, thus having them on the field changes the patterns of your play. This fact not only opens some possibilities for your setup but also restrict others. With that in mind i think it would be nice to have a discussion about combinations of prefered moves for each type of playmaker and duty,  i know that to an extent this is arbitratry and depends on your tactics  but there should be at least some choices that are either redundant or go against logic surely?

Here is an example i can think of:

You wanna start the play with your playmaker, so you play a DLP in the DMC strata and bam! The cbs search for him to initiate the play and he is right there close to them. Now let's say the lad has the following PPM: Comes deep to get the ball. Wouldn't it be redundant and maybe even bad in this case?  He is already pretty much holding hands with the defense, why drop even deeper?(Unless you want a half back).  

Some combinations that i like to have are "Plays one twos" for Advanced/roaming playmakers since i expect them to have an impact on the final third. Also something i've been toying around recently is "Plays short simple passes" for my DLP(d) to act as a lone pivot recycling possession, kinda like busquets from Barcelona. These seem to work fine.

 

So i would like to know what are your prefered combinations and if you can think of examples of combinations that would be a non go?

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

[Argonaut]

One thing that I have a suspicion about is that "Tries Killer Balls" PPM plus having "More Risky Passes" player instruction may be overkill and counterproductive.

Example: I rotated Harry Winks and Lewis Cook in a DLP-S position with "More Risky Passes" turned on. They both offered something different; Harry Winks had better passing stats, along with Killer Balls/Dictate Tempo/Switch Balls, while Lewis Cook had Run w/ Ball More Often/Through Centre. But in the year-end statistics, Lewis Cook actually had far more key passes than Harry Winks. Perhaps that was a function of him generally playing lower quality opposition, but I dunno. I also remember cases where players with the Killer Balls PPM really struggle in the Advanced Playmaker role, despite being well suited to it.

This is all anecdotal and a small sample size though. Would be interesting to test fully.

[yonko]

"Dictates Tempo" is always a good one for playmakers. "Looks to switch ball to other side" may be beneficial depending on set up. "Tries Killer Balls" for more advanced playmakers.

There are plenty of good choices depending on how you want your team to play.

[axehan1]

If i have a DLP in the central mid strata then I like to have him "come deep to get ball" to make space for himself,"plays one two's" so he is always moving around and "dictates tempo" for obvious reasons , I want him to be the main creator.

Advanced Playmaker, in the same strata would be "plays one two's" and "More risky passes".

[craigd84]

I like this thread. 

 

For example.. I'm trying to recreate a Riquelme styled playmaker using Enganche role.

 

Killer balls

One twos

Curls ball

Dictates tempo

From what I remember of Afonso Sousa my Riquelme.

[yonko]

4 hours ago, axehan1 said:

If i have a DLP in the central mid strata then I like to have him "come deep to get ball" to make space for himself,"plays one two's" so he is always moving around and "dictates tempo" for obvious reasons , I want him to be the main creator.

Advanced Playmaker, in the same strata would be "plays one two's" and "More risky passes".

DLP is not the main creator of the playmakers. He can be the main distributor but not the main creator. The role plays too deep for that.

[axehan1]

46 minutes ago, yonko said:

DLP is not the main creator of the playmakers. He can be the main distributor but not the main creator. The role plays too deep for that.

If he's the only playmaker on the pitch then he is my creator.I didn't mean him and adv PM in the same team.

[yonko]

18 hours ago, axehan1 said:

If he's the only playmaker on the pitch then he is my creator.I didn't mean him and adv PM in the same team.

The main creator doesn't have to be a playmaker though. 

Does your DLP get the most assists? From open play? Does he make the most key passes? Does he create the most chances?

These are the stats you need to look at to determine who is your main creator. There is a difference between "creator" and "distributor".

[roger_rs]

On 14/12/2017 at 14:41, Argonaut said:

One thing that I have a suspicion about is that "Tries Killer Balls" PPM plus having "More Risky Passes" player instruction may be overkill and counterproductive.

 

Thats an interesting observation, must say i also noticed that happening even with players with high decisions attribute. Paradoxically, this would be a PPM i would be looking for an Advanced Playmaker(a) to have by playing those defense splitting passes. Perhaps chosing a tactic with a more patient build up style would help to mitigate that? 

[craigd84]

50 minutes ago, roger_rs said:

Thats an interesting observation, must say i also noticed that happening even with players with high decisions attribute. Paradoxically, this would be a PPM i would be looking for an Advanced Playmaker(a) to have by playing those defense splitting passes. Perhaps chosing a tactic with a more patient build up style would help to mitigate that? 

So what i do, is set my passing to mixed in TI, then in ALL player PI's i set it to short EXCEPT my playmaker of choice, he gets DIRECT passes.

I feel it encourages him to make more through balls, iirc risky passes are over the top passes rather than ground passes. ie passes with low chance percent completion rate. 

 

perhaps to counter that would be tries through balls often but with less risky passes?

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, craigd84 said:

So what i do, is set my passing to mixed in TI, then in ALL player PI's i set it to short EXCEPT my playmaker of choice, he gets DIRECT passes.

I feel it encourages him to make more through balls, iirc risky passes are over the top passes rather than ground passes.

Not true. A risky pass is a pass that doesn't have a high chance of being completed, but the type of pass can be any kind. It isn't restricted to ground/top passes.

Also if you set your playmaker to just direct passes why even use a playmaker role? You can use any role and tell him to pass it direct if its a specific style of pass you want him to attempt.

[roger_rs]

23 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

So what i do, is set my passing to mixed in TI, then in ALL player PI's i set it to short EXCEPT my playmaker of choice, he gets DIRECT passes.

I feel it encourages him to make more through balls, iirc risky passes are over the top passes rather than ground passes. ie passes with low chance percent completion rate. 

Wouldn't that do the opposite of what you are trying to achieve?  Tries killer balls+risky passes+direct passes would result in a super aggressive behavior i feel.

19 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Not true. A risky pass is a pass that doesn't have a high chance of being completed, but the type of pass can be any kind. It isn't restricted to ground/top passes.

Thats how i see it, there is no better example of that than playing a no nonsense defender as as BPD with play out of defense TI if you wanna see some really ludicrous displays 

[craigd84]

32 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Not true. A risky pass is a pass that doesn't have a high chance of being completed, but the type of pass can be any kind. It isn't restricted to ground/top passes.

Also if you set your playmaker to just direct passes why even use a playmaker role? You can use any role and tell him to pass it direct if its a specific style of pass you want him to attempt.

Ah as I said I wasn't sure if it was over the top or just low percentage.

 

As for the direct passes sometimes I just pick attack midfield and tune his PI'S and ppms rather than setting a designated playmaker.

15 minutes ago, roger_rs said:

Wouldn't that do the opposite of what you are trying to achieve?  Tries killer balls+risky passes+direct passes would result in a super aggressive behavior i feel.

Thats how i see it, there is no better example of that than playing a no nonsense defender as as BPD with play out of defense TI if you wanna see some really ludicrous displays 

Nooooooo lol I wouldn' have killer balls risky and direct.. 

 

Just killer and direct.

[dan_bre_1988]

Interesting discussion. 

We say a lot about playmakers and how they are 'ball magnets' but what about if you had 2? Say a DLP in cm and an AP in amc. Would the defense feed the DLP who then feeds the AP? 

Do people tend to use more than one playmaker or is it counter productive to?

Personally if I'm using a CM as playmaker I want dictates tempo definitely. Tries risky passes depends on formation. I don't want it if there are 4 players ahead of him as a misplaced pass trying a low percentage pass can give opponents a counter attack opportunity. I prefer risky passes for an AMC as a must as generally speaking they are the pivot on which attacking play is generally built around and the key to unlocking stubborn defenses.

[cregan]

34 minutes ago, dan_bre_1988 said:

We say a lot about playmakers and how they are 'ball magnets' but what about if you had 2? Say a DLP in cm and an AP in amc. Would the defense feed the DLP who then feeds the AP? 

There's no particular order, but both will tend to attract the ball. So depending the situation, a DC might be inclined to pass to the DLP, who knocks it up to the AP, or a WB might pop it up to the AP, who then decides to retain possession and pass it back to the DLP, who then etc. etc.

Overall, both playmakers will each see a percentage more of the ball than non-playmaker roles would in the same positions, but there's no strict sequence. It all depends on the match situation and the tactics in play.

As I understand it, anyway.

[Cap'nRad]

I don't like having advanced playmakers because in the M.E their ball oriented movement trumps their actual otb movement. I would like if they had the freedom to move around regardless of the position of the ball, and create plays with otb movement as well as passing and vision. For killer balls, as shown with Ozil at Madrid and subsequently Arsenal, runners in a lot of instances make the playmaker. I make sure to have one attacker with pace making forward runs often (move into channels, get forward whenever possible) to ensure that the killer pass is always on for the playmaker. 

[roger_rs]

59 minutes ago, Cap'nRad said:

I don't like having advanced playmakers because in the M.E their ball oriented movement trumps their actual otb movement. I would like if they had the freedom to move around regardless of the position of the ball, and create plays with otb movement as well as passing and vision.

I get what you trying to say, but wouldn't that be one of the purposes of the role? To always make himself available as a passing outlet. 

One of the ppms that i have yet to notice a significant benefit in using it is "Likes to switch ball to other the flank", maybe i'm using it wrong but didnt notice any impact or whatsoever for playmakers playing in central areas and that actually makes sense.

[Cap'nRad]

4 hours ago, roger_rs said:

I get what you trying to say, but wouldn't that be one of the purposes of the role? To always make himself available as a passing outlet. 

One of the ppms that i have yet to notice a significant benefit in using it is "Likes to switch ball to other the flank", maybe i'm using it wrong but didnt notice any impact or whatsoever for playmakers playing in central areas and that actually makes sense.

My passing outlets are usually deep, while the more advanced playmakers are more like CAM's, so their movement independent of the ball is more important to me. For switching the ball, it's useful if you have wingbacks getting forward on either side and you want a quick switch from one flank to another. A dlp would execute this well and it can often result in a 1v1 or even 2v1 on the opposite flank.

[craigd84]

7 hours ago, Cap'nRad said:

I don't like having advanced playmakers because in the M.E their ball oriented movement trumps their actual otb movement. I would like if they had the freedom to move around regardless of the position of the ball, and create plays with otb movement as well as passing and vision. For killer balls, as shown with Ozil at Madrid and subsequently Arsenal, runners in a lot of instances make the playmaker. I make sure to have one attacker with pace making forward runs often (move into channels, get forward whenever possible) to ensure that the killer pass is always on for the playmaker. 

So do you have the GFWP ppm on your attackers? Im assuming strikers but as im typing this you could me IF's lol.

[Cap'nRad]

6 hours ago, craigd84 said:

So do you have the GFWP ppm on your attackers? Im assuming strikers but as im typing this you could me IF's lol.

I prefer move into channels for strikers with pace and IF's with good OTB. For wingers with poor OTB but good pace and workrate, I'd use GFWP. 

[craigd84]

Now that makes sense