Global UNDO button much needed in FM.

[bassistuk]

Yes I know there is an undo button for certain things like subs etc... 

But what if we click the wrong button on transfers and tactics? 

So many times I've clicked the wrong button when buying a player and potentially lost the ability to buy him again. 

Would be amazing to have a limited global UNDO so that anything you do can be undone at least for one step back. 

Thoughts on this? 

[onurserter]

Sounds good yet it should not be abused

[dewhirst]

I think people would use it to submit a contract offer and if it's accepted, press undo and then submit a different (lower) offer. I quite like how it is now. More risk, more fun. 

[7omer]

Sounds like a button that could be easy used to cheat yourself to better contracts when you are in the end of the transfer window and need to be less strict on the negotiations or when you don't have a backup player or time to scout a new one. 

Yeah, sometimes you get freaking angry for your mistakes, but since this could easy be abused I don't think it is good to implement. 

It is no problem going back and look around and re-enter the contract negotiations. So this issue you talking about only comes when you actually push the offer the contract and you can solve that with just looking over the contract one extra time before you send them the offer. 

[bassistuk]

totally agreed with everyone's responses.

[ilkork]

Someone would argue that, that's why the Save Game function is for.
I had instances where I accidentally pressed the wrong button in a conversation and then had to reload. An "Undo" button would have saved me time.
Also, for people saying "you could abuse the system by it", that's a thing you can already do by reloading... And tbh, that's not the point here.

So, agree with the OP.

[enigmatic]

It's a massive cheat feature, but I can see the logic of having it in Touch and possible to add to the real game with a skin...

[ilkork]

16 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

It's a massive cheat feature, but I can see the logic of having it in Touch and possible to add to the real game with a skin...

I think that's a solution which can make us all happy.
Although I would argue if "it's a massive cheat feature", because at the end of the day, what's it to us?
Lastly, I don't think that FMT has that many dialogs compared to the full game. Less important in FMT, but sure, include it in there as well, why not?

[7omer]

11 hours ago, ilkork said:

Someone would argue that, that's why the Save Game function is for.
I had instances where I accidentally pressed the wrong button in a conversation and then had to reload. An "Undo" button would have saved me time.
Also, for people saying "you could abuse the system by it", that's a thing you can already do by reloading... And tbh, that's not the point here.

So, agree with the OP.

I totally disagree with you. What you say works if you play single player, but not if you play multiplayer. If this button is added it justifies to be allowed to exploit it through a game system and would be bad for a multiplayer game and the players that don't want to exploit load possibilities.  If it is a game feature it is allowed, so in my head a bad change for the game play and for the realistic measure to real life.

You must remember that is is not just a single player game, I mostly use FM as a multiplayer game. So I am against that they shall implement a "cheating" button to avoid the hassle of save load for those who want to do that. 

If you send a wrong offer in real life you can be in trouble, so should it be in FM. Save and load as much as you guys want to get the contract deal you wish and the best outcome, but I beg FM's creators not to let this inflict the game for us that mostly play multiplayers and don't have the load save game option or those who want to play a game from A to B without "cheat" loads to detail adjust contracts offers lower. (Oh yeah, I am been super angry at myself for starting too high on the salary, cause they accepted it too quick, but hey that is life and part of the game. In real life you don't know what a guy is willing to accept before you do an offer, so the undo thing is a big big cheat in my head) 

[ilkork]

2 hours ago, 7omer said:

What you say works if you play single player, but not if you play multiplayer.

Yeah sure, I'm sorry, haven't thought of that, because I've never actually played in multiplayer mode.
I don't know how things work there, but the Undo button certainly isn't an option for that mode .
 

2 hours ago, 7omer said:

If you send a wrong offer in real life you can be in trouble, so should it be in FM.

Sure, but these instances are rare, because irl you have so many people involved (experts) who make sure everything's ok.

But let me ask you this, what about a conversation between you and your player? For example, you select an option and now you've made a promise to that player, when in fact you didn't even know that option was about a promise.
What about a press conference, where you don't like any of the options, and accidentally created a war between you and the other manager?
Is it easier to use the Undo button (should they implement it) or reloading?

[7omer]

5 hours ago, ilkork said:

Yeah sure, I'm sorry, haven't thought of that, because I've never actually played in multiplayer mode.
I don't know how things work there, but the Undo button certainly isn't an option for that mode .
 

Sure, but these instances are rare, because irl you have so many people involved (experts) who make sure everything's ok.

But let me ask you this, what about a conversation between you and your player? For example, you select an option and now you've made a promise to that player, when in fact you didn't even know that option was about a promise.
What about a press conference, where you don't like any of the options, and accidentally created a war between you and the other manager?
Is it easier to use the Undo button (should they implement it) or reloading?

I can totally understand the need or wish for an undo button for the players that want to go back on their mistakes and fix it and it is a hassle to do the save and load way. But mistakes is part of real life, and since FM trying to copy the real life we have to handle and cope with to hasty disquisitions there as well. I sometimes read too quick and choose the wrong choice in team talk before a match, but when it comes down to it, it was my mistake and I was sloppy. Sloppiness in the game should potentially lead to something bad, just as life does  (In my opinion). 

If we get this undo button the creators can just eliminate every options that lead to a bad outcome, cause you can legally in game change it anyway. For me that button will take away much of the game, cause I will always use the mechanics in the game, cause they are part of the game, but it will also take away the consequences of choices. And for me it will be maybe a game killer button. 

So I to answer your question, I rather want them to make it clearer what your choices gives of promises than make it possible to redo the choices. Presses and media always twist on your words, so here you are not suppose to know what way they will twist it anyhow. So the more wrong choices you do in media the more realistic it becomes

But yeah, I understand that you want it, to easier get the game how you want it, but for me the button is the devil and eliminate all consequence in the play.  (The Waterboy reference )

I would rather suggest that it could be a button to be able to enable if you allowed the in-game editor in the game, for example. Then it could be an option for those who like the game like that, and stay original for those who don't want to "cheat"/alter or plays multiplayer games. But as a standard button, I will fight to the last end for that to not happening. 

[ilkork]

On 11/27/2017 at 06:02, 7omer said:

I can totally understand the need or wish for an undo button for the players that want to go back on their mistakes and fix it and it is a hassle to do the save and load way. But mistakes is part of real life, and since FM trying to copy the real life we have to handle and cope with to hasty disquisitions there as well. I sometimes read too quick and choose the wrong choice in team talk before a match, but when it comes down to it, it was my mistake and I was sloppy. Sloppiness in the game should potentially lead to something bad, just as life does  (In my opinion).

I would have agreed with you, only if FM was 99.9% close to real life. Since it is nowhere near that, I have to disagree.
IRL, you know what you want to say, for example, in a press conference. But in FM, the developers deliberately made the dialogs not 100% crystal clear (at least most of the times) in order for you to be confused and so that new situations arise.
Let me explain myself. There is f.e., one sentence to choose for a reply (out of 5), but this doesn't really represent what you have in your head. And you know it yourself, once you choose that option, new dialogs will unfold that have nothing to do with your original intention of answering that question. So, the game deliberately made you start a war with the other manager.
 

On 11/27/2017 at 06:02, 7omer said:

If we get this undo button the creators can just eliminate every options that lead to a bad outcome, cause you can legally in game change it anyway. For me that button will take away much of the game, cause I will always use the mechanics in the game, cause they are part of the game, but it will also take away the consequences of choices. And for me it will be maybe a game killer button.

Not, if you do want your conversations to lead to a bad outcome in the first place.
For example, I manage Olympiacos in Greece (the biggest team there), so I have many rivals. Sometimes I want to be an **** in a press conference and say how bad the rival manager is. That is deliberate on my part. I know it will lead to a bad outcome but I don't care.
But what about when you don't know f.e. that option A will lead to a bad outcome? What about that situation? Reload the game because of SI's mistake in lack of better wording?
 

On 11/27/2017 at 06:02, 7omer said:

So I to answer your question, I rather want them to make it clearer what your choices gives of promises than make it possible to redo the choices. Presses and media always twist on your words, so here you are not suppose to know what way they will twist it anyhow. So the more wrong choices you do in media the more realistic it becomes

Yes, it would have been better if they made it clearer if your choice is about a promise.
And no, not all media does that (twisting your words). At least not the official ones. The others do it. And if you receive a question from "the others", there should have been an option for you to say "You all are twisting my words and taking things out of context", or something like that.
 

On 11/27/2017 at 06:02, 7omer said:

But yeah, I understand that you want it, to easier get the game how you want it, but for me the button is the devil and eliminate all consequence in the play.  (The Waterboy reference )

I would rather suggest that it could be a button to be able to enable if you allowed the in-game editor in the game, for example. Then it could be an option for those who like the game like that, and stay original for those who don't want to "cheat"/alter or plays multiplayer games. But as a standard button, I will fight to the last end for that to not happening.

You seem to misunderstand some things here. It's not about cheating. My previous sentences explain the logic behind having that button.
And even if it was cheating, why do You care? What's it to You? You, just keep on playing the game the way you like, let me "cheat" if I want to.

We said it earlier and I agreed, that button probably couldn't work in multiplayer mode, but it can definitely work in single mode or FMT.
Fine, make it available through skinning. But not through the in-game editor, because I don't want to pay in order to correct SI's-not 100% right-dialogs.
If they don't implement that button, they should at least fix the dialog options and make it clear if, f.e., option A is about a promise by adding [Promise] next to the sentence.

[7omer]

4 hours ago, ilkork said:

I would have agreed with you, only if FM was 99.9% close to real life. Since it is nowhere near that, I have to disagree.
IRL, you know what you want to say, for example, in a press conference. But in FM, the developers deliberately made the dialogs not 100% crystal clear (at least most of the times) in order for you to be confused and so that new situations arise.
Let me explain myself. There is f.e., one sentence to choose for a reply (out of 5), but this doesn't really represent what you have in your head. And you know it yourself, once you choose that option, new dialogs will unfold that have nothing to do with your original intention of answering that question. So, the game deliberately made you start a war with the other manager.

I do understand your view, but my stand aren't the same. So because of my stand I am more happy with how it is now. If I take experience from real life and compare it to your example of how you don't want it I would say the real life is closer to how you don't want it than how you want it. 

If you say something and not being boring uber political correct  or over careful you can easy be misunderstood and get a very unexpected response to what you said. This will happen more the less the person knows your personality and how you usually respond and mean things. So for me be able to go back when they take it out of context would not fix but ruin for me (Not saying for you, my opinion is based on how I want the game, just as I assume your opinion is built up on how you want it) 

 

4 hours ago, ilkork said:

Not, if you do want your conversations to lead to a bad outcome in the first place.
For example, I manage Olympiacos in Greece (the biggest team there), so I have many rivals. Sometimes I want to be an **** in a press conference and say how bad the rival manager is. That is deliberate on my part. I know it will lead to a bad outcome but I don't care.
But what about when you don't know f.e. that option A will lead to a bad outcome? What about that situation? Reload the game because of SI's mistake in lack of better wording?

Why should you want the conversation to lead to a bad outcome? I know I always aim for good positive impact for me and my team. If I can re-do everything each time it becomes bad impact they could just take away the whole section and the game would be the same.

And your example isn't a bad outcome, then you are firing up the competitor to create an atmosphere. Bad outcome is when it become something you don't want or aim for.  Unexpected outcome, if you like. 

 

4 hours ago, ilkork said:

Yes, it would have been better if they made it clearer if your choice is about a promise.
And no, not all media does that (twisting your words). At least not the official ones. The others do it. And if you receive a question from "the others", there should have been an option for you to say "You all are twisting my words and taking things out of context", or something like that.

All you say to others can be interoperated total different from what you think and mean in your brain, and because it is easy for you since you are close to the source you can often say it too simple for them to understand really what you mean. It is pretty common for people to say that the media have taken a unexpected angle, official media or non official. And to be true, you would never know this before you read it in the paper. Maybe quote taken out of context or misunderstood it total. Media also have an bigger and bigger agenda to get clicks and would create click baits and use your words if you were sloppy of choice or open for interpenetration. 

 

 

4 hours ago, ilkork said:

You seem to misunderstand some things here. It's not about cheating. My previous sentences explain the logic behind having that button.
And even if it was cheating, why do You care? What's it to You? You, just keep on playing the game the way you like, let me "cheat" if I want to.

 

I respect that you don't see it as cheating. For me re-adjusting all stages in game is for me either cheating or making the game to simple and easy to play and take out the joy and challenge. You just take away the possibilities to do mistakes, and could almost just play a you tube video of a game instead (Put on the edge just to illustrate a point). Since that button would probably be a game killer for me I will fight against it. I want to do best, and if the button was there and I messed up the temptation would be there to be used and I could justify that it is legal since it is part of the game. Suddenly the challenge would be gone, and I would get bored even if I played after the game's rules.

So it is easier to say not use it than it is to follow it. I had an in-game editor before, it was with good faith to add my own kids into my team, but when first enabled I total misused it and exploited it. It was so easy to use, just as this button will be. Now you have to leave the game to it, and then you know something is wrong/cheating when you have to go out and in of the game itself. So I want to keep it as it is because I love the game and I don't want to support something that might make me stop playing it. 

I let you cheat if you want to, and I let you argument to get this button, but you will get argument against it from me on top of it

 

4 hours ago, ilkork said:

We said it earlier and I agreed, that button probably couldn't work in multiplayer mode, but it can definitely work in single mode or FMT.
Fine, make it available through skinning. But not through the in-game editor, because I don't want to pay in order to correct SI's-not 100% right-dialogs.
If they don't implement that button, they should at least fix the dialog options and make it clear if, f.e., option A is about a promise by adding [Promise] next to the sentence.

As long as you would have to enable it I wouldn't be against it. It could maybe be at the same place as you enable in-game editor?  Like just another check box you could check off when you start the game for the first time? 

[ilkork]

38 minutes ago, 7omer said:

Why should you want the conversation to lead to a bad outcome? I know I always aim for good positive impact for me and my team.

Because not everyone is the same. I sometimes am an **** who wants to say bad things about the other manager, because he manages a rival club. I deliberately want that, what can I do, I'm a bad person.
 

39 minutes ago, 7omer said:

And your example isn't a bad outcome, then you are firing up the competitor to create an atmosphere. Bad outcome is when it become something you don't want or aim for.  Unexpected outcome, if you like.

It is a deliberate bad outcome, because it's more negative than positive.
Bad outcome=negative>positive
Good outcome=positive>negative

Sometimes I do that on purpose (see the start of this post).
But sometimes I don't want to start a war with the other manager and the dialog options don't really help in achieving that. It ends as bad outcome, and that's something unexpected.
Or, I shouldn't say "unexpected", I should say "expected", because I know the dialog options are not the best and will lead to a bad outcome, but you have no other choice the way they are now.
 

47 minutes ago, 7omer said:

I respect that you don't see it as cheating. For me re-adjusting all stages in game is for me either cheating or making the game to simple and easy to play and take out the joy and challenge. You just take away the possibilities to do mistakes, and could almost just play a you tube video of a game instead (Put on the edge just to illustrate a point). Since that button would probably be a game killer for me I will fight against it. I want to do best, and if the button was there and I messed up the temptation would be there to be used and I could justify that it is legal since it is part of the game. Suddenly the challenge would be gone, and I would get bored even if I played after the game's rules.

So it is easier to say not use it than it is to follow it. I had an in-game editor before, it was with good faith to add my own kids into my team, but when first enabled I total misused it and exploited it. It was so easy to use, just as this button will be. Now you have to leave the game to it, and then you know something is wrong/cheating when you have to go out and in of the game itself. So I want to keep it as it is because I love the game and I don't want to support something that might make me stop playing it. 

I let you cheat if you want to, and I let you argument to get this button, but you will get argument against it from me on top of it

So, you are basically saying "SI, take care of me, because I can't control myself with that temptation". Is that what you are implying here?

...
 

48 minutes ago, 7omer said:

As long as you would have to enable it I wouldn't be against it. It could maybe be at the same place as you enable in-game editor?  Like just another check box you could check off when you start the game for the first time?

Sure, why not?

[7omer]

5 minutes ago, ilkork said:

So, you are basically saying "SI, take care of me, because I can't control myself with that temptation". Is that what you are implying here?

I am basically saying, "Si, don't make the game too easy and don't put up cheating buttons" 

Cause I play the game, and if the button is part of the game the game gets too easy. How it is now, it isn't the game, now it is save and load cheating, and I hope it stays as save and load cheating and not part of the game. 

[KUBI]

I think the only way to implement this would be similar to the in-game editor. You would need to chose "activate" at the start of the game. If not, it should not be available in your saved game.

[ilkork]

2 minutes ago, 7omer said:

I am basically saying, "Si, don't make the game too easy and don't put up cheating buttons"

You already have "cheating buttons", one is "Save" and the other is "Load".
And tbh, you are calling the Undo button "cheating", I call it "correct some things, because my original intention wasn't that of the dialog's".
Yes, some people will use it to cheat with contracts, etc. and I don't care, because that's their game, not mine.
 

5 minutes ago, 7omer said:

Cause I play the game, and if the button is part of the game the game gets too easy.

Ok, let me ask you this, because I can't understand you.
If, IF the "Undo button" is implemented in the game, ARE YOU GOING TO USE IT?
If not, WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH?

 

 

2 minutes ago, KUBI said:

I think the only way to implement this would be similar to the in-game editor. You would need to chose "activate" at the start of the game. If not, it should not be available in your saved game.

Fine, but the dialogs should be corrected/improved, because atm you can't really say what you think, you have to choose from a specific list.
And it's not crystal clear that an option can start a war between you and the other manager.

[KUBI]

You should play online, if you are mainly interested to start a "war" against other managers. 

[7omer]

5 minutes ago, ilkork said:

You already have "cheating buttons", one is "Save" and the other is "Load".
And tbh, you are calling the Undo button "cheating", I call it "correct some things, because my original intention wasn't that of the dialog's".
Yes, some people will use it to cheat with contracts, etc. and I don't care, because that's their game, not mine.
 

Ok, let me ask you this, because I can't understand you.
If, IF the "Undo button" is implemented in the game, ARE YOU GOING TO USE IT?
If not, WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH?
 

Load and Save is not in the game play. It is to make sure that you can start where you left of if you need to use your computer for something else , restart it or it crashes. Not very hard to understand the purpose for those two buttons. 

The undo button would change the game play drastic and make the game easier and in my opinion more boring. 

 

I already explained to you, I always try to do my best inside the rules of the game. And if that button is part of the game it would justify me to do something I don't want to be able to do and would be harder to know when and not when to use it. So I think getting such button can ruin the game, for me. That is why I care so much, cause it could destroy a game I love. 

[ilkork]

Just now, KUBI said:

You should play online, if you are mainly interested to start a "war" against other managers. 

No, I think you misunderstood me .
I'm not interested in starting a war with other managers. I'm only doing that when managers from rival clubs underestimate me in the first place, or I simply don't like them from real-life.

The reason I like the "Undo" button suggestion, is because I sometimes start a war with another manager but I didn't want that in the first place. But the dialog options are not the best and it was their fault for that, not mine.

[7omer]

10 minutes ago, ilkork said:

No, I think you misunderstood me .
I'm not interested in starting a war with other managers. I'm only doing that when managers from rival clubs underestimate me in the first place, or I simply don't like them from real-life.

The reason I like the "Undo" button suggestion, is because I sometimes start a war with another manager but I didn't want that in the first place. But the dialog options are not the best and it was their fault for that, not mine.

It sounds like you just want everything simpler. Nothing wrong in that, but you should try to look it at from others point as well, those who don't want it simpler.  And it makes more sense not to have a "regret" button in a game. I never seen a game with that kind of button before. 

 

War Game:
Choice 1 attack the city, choice 2 mobilise more troops and wait with the attack. 

I choose choice 1 - Obs they had more defence than I expected, I better take the undo button and wait instead so I don't waste my troops. 

 

A undo button goes total against playing a game in general. If you want a game you can't do anything wrong in I hope FM won't be the game for you, cause then it stops being the game for me. 

 

If you think the dialogue boxes are bad, shouldn't the best thing to do to strengthen the dialogues and not by pass them? 

[ilkork]

1 minute ago, 7omer said:

It sounds like you just want everything simpler. Nothing wrong in that, but you should try to look it at from others point as well, those who don't want it simpler.  And it makes more sense not to have a "regret" button in a game. I never seen a game with that kind of button before

That's what you don't seem to understand. It's not "regret", it's "why the **** did the game assume that in the first place"?
If the dialogs were clearer, I wouldn't have chosen option B to start a war with the other manager for example.

I'm not against doing mistakes such as "I paid more than player X deserves, how stupid of me".
I'm against mistakes that you made because the game isn't that clear, like in conversations or press conferences.

[7omer]

1 minute ago, ilkork said:

That's what you don't seem to understand. It's not "regret", it's "why the **** did the game assume that in the first place"?
If the dialogs were clearer, I wouldn't have chosen option B to start a war with the other manager for example.

I'm not against doing mistakes such as "I paid more than player X deserves, how stupid of me".
I'm against mistakes that you made because the game isn't that clear, like in conversations or press conferences.

So lets Si fix the dialogues and not spend time on coding a new function then. Quicker and better solution. 

[ilkork]

1 minute ago, 7omer said:

So lets Si fix the dialogues and not spend time on coding a new function then. Quicker and better solution. 

Can't disagree to that.
But I also have zero problems in having that button in general, for people who want to cheat or undo something else. While you have a problem for some reason, and I guess it's because you want SI to act like your parents because you said that you "may be tempted" with that button...

[7omer]

1 minute ago, ilkork said:

Can't disagree to that.
But I also have zero problems in having that button in general, for people who want to cheat or undo something else. While you have a problem for some reason, and I guess it's because you want SI to act like your parents because you said that you "may be tempted" with that button...

What I expected when you wanted to add a button to fix a problem you had instead of actually fixing the problem

So you basically want it easier to undo mistakes and covering up the need for it with bad dialogues

But fair enough, I don't think it is wrong to try to get the game as you want. But don't think the best sales pitch towards Si is "You have something bad in your game, instead of fixing the bad what about adding something new?"

[ilkork]

2 minutes ago, 7omer said:

But don't think the best sales pitch towards Si is "You have something bad in your game, instead of fixing the bad what about adding something new?"

My reason for wanting that button is explained in the previous posts. Someone else may want that button for another reason, you don't know that.
I only speak for myself here.

[7omer]

1 minute ago, ilkork said:

My reason for wanting that button is explained in the previous posts. Someone else may want that button for another reason, you don't know that.
I only speak for myself here.

We just disagree on the need for it and what it does for the game. We will never come closer to each other to agree, so I just wish you good luck on getting Si on your side and good luck to me to work against you getting Si on your side

 

[ilkork]

2 minutes ago, 7omer said:

We just disagree on the need for it and what it does for the game. We will never come closer to each other to agree, so I just wish you good luck on getting Si on your side and good luck to me to work against you getting Si on your side

 

But you are being irrational for saying "I don't want a cheating button". Don't use it if you don't want to, no one forced you to use it!
Let others play the game the way they want to.

[7omer]

43 minutes ago, ilkork said:

But you are being irrational for saying "I don't want a cheating button". Don't use it if you don't want to, no one forced you to use it!
Let others play the game the way they want to.

No, I have also said I don't want a game to be too much simplified. I also said that having an undo button sounds like something that goes against gaming concept itself. If a person doesn't like fog of war in Civilization cause it makes you move the unites in non smart ways doesn't mean that Sid Miers will remove fog of war cause a couple of players want an easier game.  Then you just need to save, move your unites and load to move them again, if you want to by-pass game rules and functions. 

If I play basketball and that game consist of rule A, B C & D and I don't like rule C & D cause that makes the game too easy it won't help me much to not use those rules at all and avoid them. Then I loose each game because my competitors uses those rules. 

So it is little bit more layers than just what I want for myself, since I play multiplayer games. 

 

Then you can say, "but we can only have it in single player games". But that wouldn't work cause then you take away the possibility to invite a friend over to play 1 season with you on your single player game and you suddenly take away options people have been used to and probably not very welcome to change. I don't think it is beneficial for Si to separate single and multiplayer from each other, cause then they would have 2 arenas instead of 1. 

 

I respect you fighting your corner, but you must accept (don't need to respect it) that I am fighting mine and won't stop with it. 

 

Edit: And I am not stopping you to play the game as you want, I never tried to do that. I just saying why I don't want Si to change it, and why I think Si have done the correct choice in the past versions. 

 

Edit2: I also already said I wouldn't work hard against it if Si would make it just as in-game editor and make it an option, but I wouldn't actively support it since I would hope they used their time on improving other aspects instead. 

[ilkork]

1 hour ago, 7omer said:

Then you can say, "but we can only have it in single player games". But that wouldn't work cause then you take away the possibility to invite a friend over to play 1 season with you on your single player game and you suddenly take away options people have been used to and probably not very welcome to change.

I don't know how hard would it be to include that button in single mode but not in multiplayer mode. If it is that hard to do, then sure, no Undo button at all (because we agreed, in mp mode someone can cheat, and cheating is not acceptable in that mode).

1 hour ago, 7omer said:

I respect you fighting your corner, but you must accept (don't need to respect it) that I am fighting mine and won't stop with it.

I can accept and respect it if you "fight" with reason. But if you say stuff like "I may be tempted with that button, so no", then no, I can't accept such irrational points, sorry.

1 hour ago, 7omer said:

I also already said I wouldn't work hard against it if Si would make it just as in-game editor and make it an option, but I wouldn't actively support it since I would hope they used their time on improving other aspects instead.

Sure, I too would prefer SI to spend their time in improving other (more important) aspects instead of that button, but that's not the point in this section of the forum. Here, people just make suggestions, it doesn't matter if one is "more important" that another.
 

[7omer]

30 minutes ago, ilkork said:

I can accept if you "fight" with reason. But if you say stuff like "I may be tempted with that button, so no", then no, I can't accept such irrational points, sorry.

I have listed more than that. Now you are very selective on what you choose to base it on and quote me on. I can easy play that game as well and say "you are irrational, you only want a redo button because you are too lazy to load and change/cheat"  The fact here is that both of us want our way because of personal needs, so mine doesn't become more irrational than yours just cause it suits you.  What is different from yours and mine is my needs doesn't change the game play for others,  yours do change the game play and it either messes up the muliplayer section or splitting muliplayer from single player and inflict the game on more levels that will have aftermath on how people can combine muliplayer and single player in same game.  So my wishes inflicts nothing on others, your wish inflict a lot on others. 

I can also defend my reasoning on top of the reason you quoted me on with
- You want the game to redo itself, that is very uncommon in games and not a very logical function to implement in a game. 
- You want the game to get easier to add function without any other use than going back and forward in the time line of choices and that way changes game play and difficulties.
- You want something that can easily be defended as cheating to be part of the game itself.
- You want something that only saves time and changes game play, and can get what you want without changing game play for others with current system. 

And since I see all those as negative for the game play, and not just because I can't avoid using the button (That is just one of the reasons I am against it). Game rules are game rules, and bad game rules will make a bad game. I don't want Si to make a bad game, I want Si to continue making an excellent game. 

All that I am listing and saying now is something I already mention, and that haven't really changed just because you chose to quote me on parts of my reasoning and not all. All you got out of that was me to list them up again and make an even bigger point out of it. 

 

30 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Sure, I too would prefer SI to spend their time in improving other (more important) aspects instead of that button, but that's not the point in this section of the forum. Here, people just make suggestions, it doesn't matter if one is "more important" that another.

And as you can see this thread is not marked as discussion or suggestion. And even if it was marked as a suggestion you must expect that you will get other peoples opinion on the subject, even if it is against you. I expect people to talk against me when they disagree with me when I am on forums. So when you talk for it, I talk against it and will also use the argument for waste of time for a function like this when they could use the time on something that would improve the game much more and change it less in a negative way. 

 

And yeah, I love this game and I will be put in effort in the topics I care for, like this one. 

[Neil Brock]

Reviewed so locked.