Please Help Me - PKM attached

[James9]

Hi Fmers I really want some help with my tactics and trying to understand how this games works. I have uploaded a PKM of my match against Manchester United. I did draw this match 2-2 but watching the game they seem to have outplayed me. I have been following Rashidi's YT channel on understanding shape and I have read numerous guides from Cleon RT and Herne and THOG but I do not understand this game. Please take a look at my PKM and welcome any constructive feedback good or bad. I went with a Standard and Fluid and I did not use any Tis are PI because i do not fully understand how these instructions work. 

As you can see with my role and duty selection I do not have a clue what I am doing. I do not understand how i got a 2-2 draw. i hope someone can advice me and give some help

 

Man Utd v Arsenal jimmy.pkm

[Moutorious]

From what you've said, it doesn't seem like you have a specific way of playing. It'd help if you'd tell us how you want to play, and also how you go about achieving that way of playing.

Would also be helpful to show your roles...

[James9]

I do not want my team to take too much risk so I select standard.I  want the team to play closer together so i selected Fluid. So basically I want to play football that is well balanced and risk free. I do not believe in high risk football. I like possession football,  but the possession must have a end product. I do not want 80% possession that goes nowhere. I am not sure how to achieve the style of possession football i want to play. 

The reason why I did not choose TI is because i really do not understand certain TI and the impact on my tactic. 

[Moutorious]

And your roles...?

[HUNT3R]

James, you've been here long enough to know the drill. Post your tactical setup and the details around it, like why you set it up in the way you did etc.

[herne79]

As Hunt3r says, you need to post your detailed set up.

In the mean time, I will mention one thing - you "want to play football that is well balanced and risk free. I do not believe in high risk football.  I like possession football...".

What does using the Fluid Team Shape do to player creative freedom, and does that help you achieve risk free, possession football?  If it helps, check the FAQs sticky for the definition of creative freedom.

[James9]

My preferred formation is a 4-1-4-1. I like the idea of having a player in front shielding my back four. I would like a DLP in this role but at the moment i have used a Defensive Midfielder - Defend. The rest of my set up looks like this.

 

Herne I understand what you are saying with Fluid Team shape (Fluid gives my players too much creative freedom). Are you suggesting I go with structured.

I was concerned that players like Ozil and Sanchez would struggle to perform if I used structured. I wanted to give these players the creative freedom to do something special. 

Could you have a look at PKM and offer me some help 

GK - Defend - no PI

Left FB - Attack - no PI - Monreal

Right FB - Support - no PI - Bellerin

CB - Defend - Kos

CB - Defend - Per

DM - DM - Defend - Coquelin

CM - Attack - Ramsey

CM - Advance Playmaker Support - Ozil

LM - Wide Midfielder - Support - Sanchez

RM - Winger Attack - - Walcott

CF - Complete Forward - Support - Giroud

I have not used any PI are TI in my initial tactic set up

[herne79]

All I'm suggesting is to be aware of how tactical settings will impact on your chosen style of play.

In this case you want risk free possession based football.  A Fluid Team Shape will encourage all of your players to play outside of their defined roles, such as making extra dribbles and risky passes.  That increases the risk of being caught in possession or passes going astray, which is the opposite of what you want.

To mitigate that, you could add in the Be More Disciplined shout to discourage such behaviour.  Retain Possession would also reduce risky passes (and crosses), but will also bring your players even closer together.  Fluid + Retain Possession for me at least is a non-starter, they don't really sit well together imo.

On the other hand, you could use a more Structured system (which would not cause Ozil and Sanchez problems) to keep tighter control on your players, encouraging them to stick to their jobs.  If you worry about too much space between players in a structured system, shouts such as Shorter Passes and/or Retain Possession (for example) will help there.

Your player roles and duties seem at first glance to be pretty well balanced.  Just keep an eye on tactical settings compared to your chosen style of play and you should be fine.  Also be aware that having a player in the DM position will push your defensive line back a little deeper than normal.

[James9]

I did not know that a player in DM position pushes my defensive line back deeper. I now understand why Man Utd had some much possession in front of my defence. If I push the d-line up then this will leave space behind and if i close down more this will leave gaps. I am not quite sure what to do now about the d-line being pushed back with a player in DM position without it causing a knock on effect elsewhere. 

[herne79]

And therein lies the whole quandary of tactic building - everything has a knock on effect to everything else.

You already have one knock on effect, your D-line is a little deeper.  But then you have a DM to compensate.  You could also push the D-line a little higher to compensate.  However, Man Utd perhaps also had possession because you have a neutral mentality with no additional closing down instructions.

Possession isn't just about kicking the ball around keeping it from the opposition.  You also need to win the ball back when you lose it.

In my 442 thread I average 60%+ a season with possession using Standard/Structured, but tell my players to close down a little more and push a bit higher up, along with short passing.  

And if you are worried about leaving space behind, choose a defender with more pace than Mertesacker (ie., just about anyone in the database).

Can you see how that final sentence ties in to these knock on effects?  Your DM pushes the D-line deeper; you push higher to compensate; that leaves a gap behind; you bring in a pacier defender.  Compensate for those knock on effects.

[James9]

Herne thanks for your help the advice as been really useful.I am still struggling with Ozil in my 4-1-4-1 set up. I tried playing him as a Advance Playmaker Support through the middle but he seems to struggle and the game passes him by at times. I just both Gundogan to play asa DLP Defend in my DMC position. I do not think is because I am a playing a DLP because he was playing poor before the introduction of  the DLP Could you offer any advice on what to do

[summatsupeer]

Next game just focus on Ozil, watch the whole game if you have time.  

He might not be playing well but it might be due to the options he has around him.  See what options he has when he gets the ball and what he does with it. Does he have options, did he pick a good one but it didn't come off because of execution or good defending?

[James9]

I watched the PKM of game again last night and Ozil did make a key pass that led to Girouds goal. After that he went quiet. I think my role and duty selection is good. I even went to structured to try and keep more control and ensure he did what I expected of him. Could you have a look at the PKM in the OP and let me know your feedback. 

[summatsupeer]

Watching on Comprehensive (2d View), here's what i've noticed.

• Ozil is staying central and dropping to get the ball but is in the same area as the 2xCM of Man Utd so just marking himself out of the game.  Ramsey is finding more space with his runs into the AMC space.
• Your team is playing quite direct but Giroud is isolated.  You did score two goals from quite direct passes but your not really setup for an Counter Attack style.
• When he did get the ball and work is forward, the move was over (bad pass/dribble/potshot/tackled) before he caught up with play.
• The opponents FBs are often open deep to retain possession and cover the field to win clearances against the lone forward.

You say you want to encourage possession but watching that it was more like a direct counter attacking side.  Koscielny played more passes than Ozil, Monreal had more Key Passes.

You need to add TI to encourage possession if thats what you want.  With a 4141 "Shorter Passing" and/or "Play Out Of Defence" to dissuade passes to an isolated Giroud and make your players work the ball through the midfield would make sense.

Thats all I would change regarding "with the ball" before watching more games.  

Without the ball, as herne79 mentioned you need to consider your pressing, which is linked to your Team Shape.  The more fluid the shape the more they try to play as a close unit, but this means defenders are nearly as likely to press as the midfielders.  It felt like your team were trying to play deep and counter attack, but players were too eager to press, causing a knock on effect of dragging players out of position.  There's lots of options, it depends what you want to do.

[James9]

Thanks for viewing my PKM and thanks for the feedback. Would pushing the D--Line Higher and Close Down More help with the pressing. I will have to look for a quicker CB than Per. 

I am not too keen on Fluid because it makes my players deviate from what I want to do. For example if I tell my winger to stay wider that is what I want him to do. I do not want him to deviate from my tactical set up. 

I have chosen to go with Structured now so my set up is Standard + Structured. 

I think Ozil is dropping deep because of his PPM comes deep to get the ball. How can I stop him from dropping so deep and getting mark out of the game by the other midfielders. Do I have to choose another role and duty and if so which would you recommend 

My  long term goal is okay a DLP Defend in DMC position 

[summatsupeer]

Since you've decided to change team shape, keep your defensive settings at they are and see if you can spot the difference, otherwise you won't see how it's modified your play.

Shorter Passing slows the tempo and narrows the width a little, if Ozil is marked that should give him time to use his off the ball skills as his team mates work the ball around instead of going direct.

Remember there's knock on effects with anything you do, take small steps so you can see how your teams play changes.

[James9]

Thanks. I will take your advice on board. When you say keep defensive settings do you mean stick to idea of a higher D-Line and close down more TI or keep everything neutral. As Herne explained when you are playing with DMC TIs pushes the D-Line back which I do not want. Also I do not want my team becoming too passive so I added close down more.  

Herne explained to me that I will need to win the ball back when I do not have it. The only way to win the ball back is to close down and the only to close the gap between the midfield and defence is to push higher up. The knock on effect of that is players might get dragged out of position and I get hit with balls over the top. The only to stop balls over the top is play a quicker defender. I have managed to figure out the knock on effect of playing with a high d-line. Now I just need to know what are the knock on effects of playing shorter passing. 

[Craigus89]

17 minutes ago, James9 said:

Herne explained to me that I will need to win the ball back when I do not have it. The only way to win the ball back is to close down and the only to close the gap between the midfield and defence is to push higher up. The knock on effect of that is players might get dragged out of position and I get hit with balls over the top. The only to stop balls over the top is play a quicker defender. I have managed to figure out the knock on effect of playing with a high d-line. Now I just need to know what are the knock on effects of playing shorter passing. 

No, there is not only one way to do any of those things.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Craigus89 said:

No, there is not only one way to do any of those things.

It might help the OP's understanding more if you expanded on that.

[summatsupeer]

I was just saying change as few things as possible so you know what effect your change had on the field, that way you can learn what it actually changes on the field.  

Increasing your d-line also increases your pressing to a lesser extent.  Increasing your pressing also increases your d-line to a lesser extent.  If you sit back and wait for a mistake it will take longer to get the ball and play your possession game.  You don't have to do anything, you will get the ball back eventually (even if they score), its just how long are you willing to wait and how much do you want to force a mistake.  Risk vs Reward.  Against lesser sides who might take very few risks, they might just keep it for long periods since you can't score whilst they have it.  Most teams aren't going to commit so many players forward and play so risky against Arsenal that a counter attacking style that sits back will work very often, against other big clubs it might though.  Since your not going for the gegenpressing style, ideally your line will be high enough to allow some effective pressing but makes it hard for balls over the top to not be cleared by defenders or picked up by your GK.

Well Shorter Passing means the ball will cover shorter distances.  The players being a bit closer means you lose some width to stretch opponents but your by no means narrow.  The slightly lower tempo means your players will take a few moments more to see all the options, but may still play one touch football, they just don't have to play one touch football all the time.   By moving the ball less distance and giving players more thinking time your allowing your opponents more time to get back into defensive positions, which you then have to break down, thats the knock on effect.

[James9]

because of the teams will not over commit players against Arsenal would it be correct in saying that I will need to press against these teams to try and win the ball back when they have it. I then run the risk of being hit on the counter by these teams because pressing will have affect on my team and pull my players out of position. It seems everything you do in this game comes with a consequence. Press with a High D Line and risk getting hit on the counter. Do not press and risk not having the ball for long periods which will limit the opportunity to gain possession and dominate games. I think that is why I struggle with understanding how Inwant my team to play. It seems that whatever I try and do the risk will always be there. Summit can I ask you about your set up and what you do with regards to tactics, team shape, mentality and player roles and duties. It would be good to get some coaching sessions from you.

[Craigus89]

13 minutes ago, James9 said:

because of the teams will not over commit players against Arsenal would it be correct in saying that I will need to press against these teams to try and win the ball back when they have it. I then run the risk of being hit on the counter by these teams because pressing will have affect on my team and pull my players out of position. It seems everything you do in this game comes with a consequence. Press with a High D Line and risk getting hit on the counter. Do not press and risk not having the ball for long periods which will limit the opportunity to gain possession and dominate games. I think that is why I struggle with understanding how Inwant my team to play. It seems that whatever I try and do the risk will always be there. Summit can I ask you about your set up and what you do with regards to tactics, team shape, mentality and player roles and duties. It would be good to get some coaching sessions from you.

Do you watch any football on TV? How many mid table or lower level teams do you see pressing against a team like Arsenal? The answer is incredibly few. Generally speaking a team like Arsenal would tear apart a worse team that tried to aggressively press them.

Just because you don't have the ball doesn't mean you can't be dangerous in attack. Look at Leicester last year, they won the league and had an average of around 42% possession through the season.

You also talk about the risk always being there no matter what you do. I'm not sure what you are expecting, no team ever plays any game of football in any tactical manner without risk in one form or another. That is the whole idea of tactics.

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, James9 said:

because of the teams will not over commit players against Arsenal would it be correct in saying that I will need to press against these teams to try and win the ball back when they have it. I then run the risk of being hit on the counter by these teams because pressing will have affect on my team and pull my players out of position. It seems everything you do in this game comes with a consequence. Press with a High D Line and risk getting hit on the counter. Do not press and risk not having the ball for long periods which will limit the opportunity to gain possession and dominate games. I think that is why I struggle with understanding how Inwant my team to play. It seems that whatever I try and do the risk will always be there. Summit can I ask you about your set up and what you do with regards to tactics, team shape, mentality and player roles and duties. It would be good to get some coaching sessions from you.

Can't really help with picking a style of play for you.  I found things easier when I stopped expecting to be able to get a "perfect" tactic just by clicking / unclicking things, buying the same old players who had done well in other saves but didn't really fit this saves style.  As you say there will be strengths and weaknesses in whatever style you pick, you just have to minimize the weaknesses whilst getting as many of the strengths as you can.  A good tactic is part of it, but ultimately it comes down to the players, if they can't do what you want then there's not much you can do.  Before I start a new save I usually have an idea in mind, a long term project, a style of play or wanting to make a tactic focused around a certain players.

If you want low risk possession football watch LVG's Man Utd (if you can stay awake) 

There's plenty of guides that explain better than I can and I would just be repeating. I've posted tactics in many of them that were inspired or helped me get something to work.

 

[James9]

Well playing low risk possession football LVG way is not what I want. Being half German and growing up in Germany made me open to Gegenpressing. I actually started this game with an idea of playing pressing football but it seems the more I read about how difficult it was to implement a pressing style with the ME it kind of put me off. Now I know that everything as a risk and reward I might start looking at developing my pressing game again. From what I can now understand is high d-line and pressing can lead to some good rewards. The risk are obivious with a high d-line and more pressing. Sonic would be down to me to limit these risk. Well time to put Per up for transfer because is pace will not fit my style of play.

[herne79]

3 minutes ago, James9 said:

Well time to put Per up for transfer because is pace will not fit my style of play

Now you're getting it .

This is a major consideration and shows you are making progress .  You could have the best tactic in the world but if your players don't fit it'll fall apart.  In the right tactic, Per will be brilliant.  But for what you want to achieve he'll be a liability.  Summat put it very well not so long ago where defenders are concerned:

The deeper I defend the more then I prioritize:
1) Positioning
2) Marking
3) Jumping + Heading

There is less distance for a player to make up for a mistake with there mobility, hence need to be in the right place (Marking & Positioning). The deeper you defend its more important to shield the DC's as that space in front of them is in a really dangerous area when your deep in your half. They have things a bit simpler with little space behind them and players in front of them. As your deeper your more likely to have to deal with crosses so need to dominant in the air (Jumping & Heading).

Players like Mertesacker(!!), Terry, Subotic, Huth & Morgan, etc


The higher I defend the more I prioritize:
1) Mobility (Mainly Acceleration & Agility, Pace shouldn't be terrible though)
2) Anticipation
3) Decision
4) Tackling

Because of playing higher there is space behind them, if no shielding player (possible if holding high line as you need to press to hold the line) space in front, and if the fullbacks have got forward space outside. They need to cover a larger distance to collect loose balls so need decent mobility. They could potentially have to engage a player in space so at least need hold them up by not getting ran past / turned inside out (agility), if they go for a tackle then need to win it as there will likely be less players to cover them if the opponent beats them(tackling & strength). They also will have opportunities to intercept balls in front of them, but if they miss it it could be disastrous(anticipation). With all this extra decisions they need to make they need to get it right (decisions).

[James9]

It is feeling that way Herne. I have always been a fan of pressing winning the ball back. Now this now means I have to go from Structured to Fluid. From what I am reading you cannot really play a pressing game with a Structured Team Shape. Now I go to Fluid my team becomes more compact which will help with pressing but they now have more creativity so my defenders might try to deviate from their assignments. So risk vs reward again. I start to press and create my style of play but now my team does their own thing because of the Fluid Team shape. Thia game really makes you put in focus what is important. In my mind I like to press and I want my teams to press. I also want my players to stick their assigned roles and duties and not deviate too much. But this is going to be impossible to get in my tactic. Because if I press this means a Fluid team shape is better for Gegenpressing. However a fluid team shape is not good if I want my players to stick to their assigned roles and not try anything risky. I have a lot to think about and ponder. 

Also from what I understand Control + Fluid will make my team play more risky football, getting the ball forward more quickly with a Control Mentality. Will adding in some Possesion TI such as shorter passing and or retain possession and work ball into box help to control the high risk of passing that comes with a Control Mentality

From what I understand Control allows slow build up from the back but more direct passing instructions are given to players in the final third. I also read in this forum that using the play out of defence TI with a control mentality is not a good idea because on Control the defenders are already playing out from the back and building up naturally. Can anyone confirm if this is true.

[herne79]

James9, Gegenpressing isn't really possible to emulate in FM.  I think if you can get past that then the mists may start to part a little more.

So now, if you just think in terms of more generalised pressing or closing down, it may become a little clearer.  You're not going to see 3 players rushing the ball carrier Dortmund style for example.  This in turn means you don't need to focus so much on the Team Shape to help you press.  The Art of Possession thread uses a Very Structured Team Shape, but there is still pressing going on to force ball turnover.  My 442 thread uses a Structured Team Shape and I get about 61% possession on average - Standard mentality and the TI Close Down More (not much more).  I could easily get more but then the balance tips towards possession for the sake of it.  So there is pressing going on, just not full on Gegenpressing (and yes I know that's not a system about possession - I bring it up as you mention it as well as possession).

Team compactness in those systems is achieved by using TIs - Shorter Passing, Retain Possession for example.  Can you use a more Fluid Team Shape to help compactness?  Yes of course, but then the knock on effect (as you know) is creative freedom which can put a dent in possession, so Be More Disciplined becomes a possible solution.  

Personally I prefer the former idea of a more structured Team Shape with shouts to help compactness.  Is that the best solution?  No idea, it's just how I prefer things - I find it simpler to manage.  Others prefer more Fluid shapes, and that's fine.

Just be aware that I'm not by any means saying that's what you should do.  All I'm saying is there's more than one way to skin a cat.