How to predict whether an instruction will benefit your team?

[SamL94]

I currently have a save with Man Utd

-First season I finished 4th and won the FA Cup

-Second season I finished 2nd, 2 point behind Man City

-And I am currently top in the third season, though I am only 5 games in

Anyway, this is a question not just about my Man Utd save, but Football Manager in general. I'm not bad at Football Manager (not particularly great either mind haha), but one thing I have always struggled with is instructions, and how to tell whether they will benefit my team. I am always somebody who plays with a very small amount of instructions, maybe just 2-3, as I've been told in the past to only use instructions if you know the benefit of them, and know how they will help your team.

On my Man Utd save I usually play on control and flexible, with these 3 instructions:

Closing down more

More direct passing

Play out of defence

I have 'closing down more' and 'more direct passing' on as I feel that these will panic the opposition, and create a higher tempo where we get it up the pitch quicker, and press them more (which is something I feel like Man Utd should be doing). And then I just have 'play out of defence' on because I've always found it annoying when a defender just lumps it up field and gives the ball away. Not something I feel a top club like Man Utd should be doing.

My main problem though is that I look at other instructions and I know what they mean, but don't have a clue whether they will benefit my team or not.

As an example I know that 'work ball in to box' will instruct my players to wait until there is an opening in the box, rather than just shooting from far out, etc. But I am unsure whether this will benefit my team or not. Even 'more direct passing' which is an instruction I use, I am unsure if it actually benefits my team (like I'm not sure if I would win more or less matches with this turned off).

Could anybody give me tips on how to know whether instructions will work?

[thomit]

Ehm ... watch the matches?

[SamL94]

Ehm ... watch the matches?

I understand that but without having to watch whole matches with each different instruction on just to see if it works...

There must be a way just by looking at the players you have and their attributes, etc, to be able to at least predict which instructions would work well, even if you can't guarantee it.

It surely can't just be a case of 'blindly put on different instructions and watch the matches to see if they help'.

[HUNT3R]

I understand that but without having to watch whole matches with each different instruction on just to see if it works...

There must be a way just by looking at the players you have and their attributes, etc, to be able to at least predict which instructions would work well, even if you can't guarantee it.

It surely can't just be a case of 'blindly put on different instructions and watch the matches to see if they help'.

It's pointless to look at the TIs in isolation. You need to actually think about the entire tactic - roles, duties, PPMs and Mentality mostly.

You've blindly instructed them to play More Direct when Control already is fairly direct up front. Are there players forward to receive it that quickly? Do they have enough support when they do? That's where roles and duties comes into play.

You've also blindly instructed Play Out Of Defence when Control already has fairly short passing at the back. Was it necessary? Do you have players who will be there to play it out - numbers over the opposition attackers to safely bring it out that slow?

[SamL94]

It's pointless to look at the TIs in isolation. You need to actually think about the entire tactic - roles, duties, PPMs and Mentality mostly.

You've blindly instructed them to play More Direct when Control already is fairly direct up front. Are there players forward to receive it that quickly? Do they have enough support when they do? That's where roles and duties comes into play.

You've also blindly instructed Play Out Of Defence when Control already has fairly short passing at the back. Was it necessary? Do you have players who will be there to play it out - numbers over the opposition attackers to safely bring it out that slow?

But if you're going to say that there is no need to put on TI's at all because if the style of play (counter, defensive, control, attacking, etc) already has them, then what is the point adding more. Because all the TI's which you need will already be on, and the TI's which aren't on are pretty useless to the style. It's like I asked about a counter tactic the other week and I had 'slightly deeper' enabled and somebody told me that I don't need that on as counter already plays slightly deeper'?

I understand where you're coming from in terms of playing more direct, but I did that to keep the tempo higher and press the opposition more. Again though like I say I am totally unsure whether this actually helps my team or not.

With the play out defence instruction I again see where you're coming from, but I do not seem to conceed many goals from giving the ball away when passing out, so never thought it was a problem.

This is the issue I am having with TI's though. They are two TI's which I thought would benefit my team, but obviously you, who knows a lot more about the game than me, doesn't think they do. Would I have won more with them instructs off? Would I have won the league with Man Utd last season? This is my problem, I don't know.

[HUNT3R]

But if you're going to say that there is no need to put on TI's at all because if the style of play (counter, defensive, control, attacking, etc) already has them, then what is the point adding more. Because all the TI's which you need will already be on, and the TI's which aren't on are pretty useless to the style. It's like I asked about a counter tactic the other week and I had 'slightly deeper' enabled and somebody told me that I don't need that on as counter already plays slightly deeper'?

The point is to enhance your tactic. No tactic is perfect from the start. We all have to see it in action to look for possible issues which then need tweaking.

I wasn't saying your TIs were useless. I was asking whether they were needed and whether your tactic as a whole is set up for it.

I understand where you're coming from in terms of playing more direct, but I did that to keep the tempo higher and press the opposition more. Again though like I say I am totally unsure whether this actually helps my team or not.

You could have just increased the tempo if you wanted the tempo higher, but my question would have been the same - are there players to receive it so quickly and do they have support?

With the play out defence instruction I again see where you're coming from, but I do not seem to conceed many goals from giving the ball away when passing out, so never thought it was a problem.

Again, I wasn't saying it's a problem. As thomit said, you can just simply watch a match to see if it's working for you.

This is the issue I am having with TI's though. They are two TI's which I thought would benefit my team, but obviously you, who knows a lot more about the game than me, doesn't think they do. Would I have won more with them instructs off? Would I have won the league with Man Utd last season? This is my problem, I don't know.

I can't say they benefit the team or they don't benefit the team. You haven't given anywhere near enough detail asked for in the stickied thread about asking for help. I said that it depends on the ENTIRE TACTIC.

[Cougar2010]

TIs are there to modify the default settings of the team mentality.

So if you want to play a low risk game you select defensive or counter but then you decide you want your players to close down more than the default settings for that mentality you select close down more from the TIs.

Whether a TI benefits your team depends on the rest of your tactic, your players & what the opposition are doing. While adding a TI might work in one match against one opposition it might not be of benefit in the next one as the opposition could be playing differently.

You need to watch the games and identify from what is happening on the pitch during a match whether a TI would benefit you or not.

[SamL94]

The point is to enhance your tactic. No tactic is perfect from the start. We all have to see it in action to look for possible issues which then need tweaking.

I wasn't saying your TIs were useless. I was asking whether they were needed and whether your tactic as a whole is set up for it.

You could have just increased the tempo if you wanted the tempo higher, but my question would have been the same - are there players to receive it so quickly and do they have support?

Again, I wasn't saying it's a problem. As thomit said, you can just simply watch a match to see if it's working for you.

I can't say they benefit the team or they don't benefit the team. You haven't given anywhere near enough detail asked for in the stickied thread about asking for help. I said that it depends on the ENTIRE TACTIC.

What do you mean by 'entire tactic'. That is my entire tactic. Control, flexible, with 'close down more', 'play out of defence' and 'more direct passing' enabled.

If you need my PI's as well then:

(4-2-3-1)

GK: De Gea

RB: Carvajal (full back, automatic)

CB: Tah (ball playing defender, defend)

CB: Romagnoli (central defender, defend)

LB: Shaw (full back, automatic)

CM: Renato Sanches (box to box midfielder, support)

CM: Koke (deep-lying playmaker, defend)

RAM: Coman (winger, support)

CAM: Lucas Lima (advanced playmaker, support)

LAM: Depay (inside foward, attack)

ST: Martial (complete forward, attack)

To be honest I think the best thing to do is just to keep it on control with no other instructions (apart from close down more, which I want to keep on).

[HUNT3R]

I meant entire tactic as in what I asked in post #4?

It's pointless to look at the TIs in isolation. You need to actually think about the entire tactic - roles, duties, PPMs and Mentality mostly.

As said before - just watch matches and see what is needed, if anything.

[SamL94]

I meant entire tactic as in what I asked in post #4?

As said before - just watch matches and see what is needed, if anything.

Again, sorry to sound probably quite dumb, what kind of things would I be looking for?

If my players are taking lots of long shots, and I'm not create many chances in the box in a game, then switch to work ball in to box?

If my full backs are making lots of really good runs but never been found, then look for overlap?

If my defenders are pumping it up field a lot and giving the ball away, then play out of defence?

I presume this is the kind of stuff you mean?

[HUNT3R]

Again, sorry to sound probably quite dumb, what kind of things would I be looking for?

Now we're back to my other posts in the thread where I tell you what to look for in those specific cases.

Overall though - you look for everything and anything you can spot.

If my players are taking lots of long shots, and I'm not create many chances in the box in a game, then switch to work ball in to box?

Needs context. More often than not, it's a lack of passing options though.

If my full backs are making lots of really good runs but never been found, then look for overlap?

So they are overlapping - why would you want to tell them to overlap then? You'd need to look at the options taken instead.

If my defenders are pumping it up field a lot and giving the ball away, then play out of defence?

Again, will need context. The player himself may be the cause. Or he was put under too much pressure. Or there wasn't passing options. Or he didn't see them.

---

All of it you can almost instantly see in a match.

[Cougar2010]

Again, sorry to sound probably quite dumb, what kind of things would I be looking for?

If my players are taking lots of long shots, and I'm not create many chances in the box in a game, then switch to work ball in to box?

If my full backs are making lots of really good runs but never been found, then look for overlap?

If my defenders are pumping it up field a lot and giving the ball away, then play out of defence?

I presume this is the kind of stuff you mean?

Things I tend to look at are:

A) Which team has the ball, possession in FM is based on passes not time I believe so its an indicator of which team is being more patient.

B) Where on the pitch they have possession, is it being passed round at the back or is it being worked in the opposition half.

C) The flow of the match, which team is in control of the game, which team is attacking in the bulk of the highlights. If its your team its an indicator you are doing ok, if you are defending in a lot of the highlights you might want to consider a change unless its late and you are holding onto a lead.

D) What are your players doing with the ball? Getting caught in possession a lot? dilly-dallying on the ball? giving it away? trying too many hollywood balls?

While considering the above I also take into account the current score and how far into the match I am as well.

[HUNT3R]

I mostly look at passing options. Do I have? and Can it improve?

Then movement. Am I creating the space I wanted? Is the player or players I wanted to push into that space doing it?

Then I'll move onto opposition players finding too much space.

[herne79]

possession in FM is based on passes not time I believe so its an indicator of which team is being more patient.

It's the other way around. Real life possession is based on passes, FM is based on a chess clock type of thing.

"How to predict whether an instruction will benefit your team?" Simple answer is, you can't - although with experience you begin to know which may have a decent chance of being beneficial.

Mentality and Team Shape sets the basic frame work for your system. TIs help to refine the style of play. So (for example) perhaps you want to create more space for your wingers on the flanks, in which case telling your team to play a bit narrower may help. Or you want a really heavy pressing game, so you tell players to close down more even if they are already doing it based on your mentality.

Several TIs (in my opinion) really shouldn't be used unless there is a real need. For example, work ball into box, look for overlap, or play out of defence. You can tell whether those may be needed by watching matches and looking at Prozone stats - are defenders regularly playing passes to midfielders and/or fullbacks? Are most of your shots coming from inside the penalty area? Is your attacking fullback getting up in support (and ahead) of your midfield and wingers?

Other TIs affect more than one area, such as the current Retain Possession hot topic.

SamL94 - some of your replies are already starting to demonstrate this type of analysis and knowledge, so just keep going with what you are doing and remain patient .

[SamL94]

So they are overlapping - why would you want to tell them to overlap then? You'd need to look at the options taken instead.

Just one thing I wanted to pick up on here. Surely 'look for overlap' is not telling your full backs to overlap, it is telling your other players to look for the overlap.

So, like in the example I gave, if your full backs are making good forward runs, but nobody is finding them, then you would surely want to tell your other players to look for that overlap, so they can get the ball out to the full backs more, and benefit from their good runs.

[herne79]

Look for Overlap tells your wide players to hold the ball up a little to wait for an overlapping fullback.

[SamL94]

Look for Overlap tells your wide players to hold the ball up a little to wait for an overlapping fullback.

That's what I thought. Obviously if you have decent attacking full backs who make good runs then you are going to want others to hold the ball up and look for their runs.

Maybe I read it wrong but the way HUNT3R asked why I would want to tell my full backs to overlap when they are already overlapping made it sound like 'look for overlap' is a TI which instructs full backs to come forward, rather than instructing other players to look for them.

[HUNT3R]

Just one thing I wanted to pick up on here. Surely 'look for overlap' is not telling your full backs to overlap, it is telling your other players to look for the overlap.

So, like in the example I gave, if your full backs are making good forward runs, but nobody is finding them, then you would surely want to tell your other players to look for that overlap, so they can get the ball out to the full backs more, and benefit from their good runs.

That's what I thought. Obviously if you have decent attacking full backs who make good runs then you are going to want others to hold the ball up and look for their runs.

Maybe I read it wrong but the way HUNT3R asked why I would want to tell my full backs to overlap when they are already overlapping made it sound like 'look for overlap' is a TI which instructs full backs to come forward, rather than instructing other players to look for them.

It asks the fullbacks to make more forward runs (which won't alter anything if they have an Attack duty) and the wide players to make fewer runs forward and hold up the ball.

Only the holding up of the ball can maybe cause the ball to be played to them more, but if they are forward in the right positions, there's usually another reason why they're not being picked out.

Your players won't specifically look to supply the fullbacks, is what I'm saying.

[looping]

It's the other way around. Real life possession is based on passes, FM is based on a chess clock type of thing.

"How to predict whether an instruction will benefit your team?" Simple answer is, you can't - although with experience you begin to know which may have a decent chance of being beneficial.

Mentality and Team Shape sets the basic frame work for your system. TIs help to refine the style of play. So (for example) perhaps you want to create more space for your wingers on the flanks, in which case telling your team to play a bit narrower may help. Or you want a really heavy pressing game, so you tell players to close down more even if they are already doing it based on your mentality.

Several TIs (in my opinion) really shouldn't be used unless there is a real need. For example, work ball into box, look for overlap, or play out of defence. You can tell whether those may be needed by watching matches and looking at Prozone stats - are defenders regularly playing passes to midfielders and/or fullbacks? Are most of your shots coming from inside the penalty area? Is your attacking fullback getting up in support (and ahead) of your midfield and wingers?

Other TIs affect more than one area, such as the current Retain Possession hot topic.

SamL94 - some of your replies are already starting to demonstrate this type of analysis and knowledge, so just keep going with what you are doing and remain patient .

Not my intention to hijack this thread, just one quick question:

Why on earth if you want space for your wingers it's a good idea to tell your team to play narrower?

[herne79]

Not my intention to hijack this thread, just one quick question:

Why on earth if you want space for your wingers it's a good idea to tell your team to play narrower?

I didn't say "good idea", I said "may help".

If you compress space in the centre by telling your team to play with less width, space naturally opens up on the flanks - which is where your wingers (and fullbacks) are positioned. Therefore, they may have a little extra space down the wings to play in.

[SamL94]

I didn't say "good idea", I said "may help".

If you compress space in the centre by telling your team to play with less width, space naturally opens up on the flanks - which is where your wingers (and fullbacks) are positioned. Therefore, they may have a little extra space down the wings to play in.

So would playing narrower but also having 'exploit the left flank' and 'exploit the right flank' work in a similar sense? Because like you say you would be narrowing the play, opening space on the flank, and then your players would try and exploit that.

[herne79]

So would playing narrower but also having 'exploit the left flank' and 'exploit the right flank' work in a similar sense? Because like you say you would be narrowing the play, opening space on the flank, and then your players would try and exploit that.

I only really mentioned this as an example, but it's generated a couple of questions so I'll clarify a little more. This is all linked to a tactical change we saw for FM16:

One more big change:

The Play Wider and Play Narrower TIs now only affect player positioning, not passing focus. Thus, you can now tell your team to try to stretch play without worrying about the ball getting glued to the touchline. Similarly, Playing Narrower doesn't mean your overlapping fullbacks will get ignored.

So, if you add in the exploit left/right flank shout, that will fall under the "do you really need to use it" list of shouts - if you add it in, are you merely adding in an over complication?

[HUNT3R]

Those little pixelated players have (artificial) intelligence too. If the wings are open and those players free, passes will go there even without the instruction to Exploit a Flank.

Using the instruction it means you want more penetration down that flank, more of a passing focus and more crosses than you're currently getting.