looking to create explosive counter attacking football

[AAmanicRON]

Afternoon all

I am in the early stages of creating a 4-1-2-2-1 tactic which has a very organised defence that is hard to break down. I would like the attack to be a very quick explosive counter (no long ball football ) Here is what I am thinking

Gk D

CWB A – my width on the right side

CD D

BPD D – I want this player to get the ball, look up and start the explosive attacks

FB S

A D – just sit and protect the back line

CM A – I want this player make runs from deep into space created by the striker

AP S - my creator, spraying passes and dictating play and unleashing CM A, IF A and W A

IF A - my second striker so to speak

W A – my width on the left, spreading play and drilling crosses

DLF? – dropping deep creating space for CM A and IF. Ideally I would like my striker to also be a goal threat.

I would like my main creators to be the AP, BPD from deep and Winger. My main goal threats CM A, IF A and my striker.

For team instructions I was thinking of Higher Tempo, Direct Passing, Stick to positions and Stay on feet.

I am unsure if I am on the right track or if I have missed something as I have always struggled with direct football on FM (along with any other style). I am spurs, will this counter football work with many sides likely to park the bus? I am looking to learn and any input is welcome

[RocheBag]

In my current save I've won the league somewhere around 20 times in a row, never once straying from a counter strategy, rigid fluidity, and much deeper defensive line, and more direct passing. So you can definitely play that way with a favorite to win, you just have to make sure you have a coherent set up for the times the counter isn't on

[Southern Buddie]

What was your set up RocheBag?

[RocheBag]

I'm on my phone now so I can't post screenshots, but largely the same as in the direct football thread. Just tweaks here and there.

4-1-4-1

Counter

Rigid

More direct passing

Pass into space

Work ball into box

Much deeper defensive line

Hassle opponents

Much higher tempo

Be more disciplined

WB-S CD-C CD-C WB-A

RGA-S

WM-A BBM-S CM-A WM-A

TM-S

The wide mids made to play like inside forwards through PIs, the full backs and DM told to close down less, same reason both CD are on cover duty, to counteract the effect of hassle opponents.

On a side note, did you get the pm I sent you? I feel like they don't send from my phone.

[bababooey]

Rochebag pretty much answered this thread. I'll just ask, what do you mean you don't want long ball football? Do you mean you don't want long passes to target men? Typically counter attacks are carried out to great success with long passes at the right time.

Either way, rochebag has given you a lot of good stuff here.

[AAmanicRON]

Thanks guys, alot there to consider and test. I have never played with a target man so may give that a try. By no long balls I mean I don't want my team to just lump the ball forward. But I guess that would be go route one?

[Torskus77]

I've mentioned this on every single counter attack thread that has been on here (apart from bababooey as he seemed to know what he was doing already) I had a really good counter attack tactic, with a 4-2-3-1 formation (the only time I have ever used this formation) It got me promoted two seasons in a row from being relegation favourites.

There are some key things about playing on the counter attack.

It largely relies on...

* The opposition attacking you.

Yes, it's very important they come out at you, the more they attacked, the more I punished them. 35-40% possession for me was usual. 20- 30 Shots for the opposition was common, most of them slashed wide, over etc from distance as they got ever more frustrated. Then Boom, up the pitch and cut them open. Once your reputation grows, and teams start to show you more respect, it becomes more difficult (not impossible)

* Having quick players.

Especially the wings, and if possible up front too. The quicker the better, although they do need the other required attributes for the position, speed is a killer.

* Wingers work better than inside forwards.

Not saying you can't have an inside forward, but I'd say at least 1 winger is essential, whether that is in the ML/R or AML/R role, depends on your set up, but your wide men are key.

* If you use Counter/Defensive mentality, be aware of how that adjusts passing lengths for players. Defenders will play more direct by default, forwards will play shorter. If you add the direct passing option, this will extend the defenders passing by a lot. I didn't really want my defenders hoofing it every time, I had a DLP who was far more adept at playing direct balls to the wings. So I never used more direct passing, I just used PI's to adust to what I wanted.

* Run at defence

Is a great shout if used at the right moments, sometimes the quick ball up front isn't the best idea, it's a thing of beauty to see the winger carry the ball forward on a counter while players sprint forward to get in the box. I never used it as a default shout, but it worked well at the right times.

I can't remember the exact roles/ set up I used, but I think my TI's were along the lines of Drop Deeper, stay on feet, Stick to positions , with run at defence and direct passing added at certain times. I never used a Target man, I had an advanced forward, think he was perfect, although complete forward could work well too. Just depends how you want to attack,

[Southern Buddie]

I'm on my phone now so I can't post screenshots, but largely the same as in the direct football thread. Just tweaks here and there.

4-1-4-1

Counter

Rigid

More direct passing

Pass into space

Work ball into box

Much deeper defensive line

Hassle opponents

Much higher tempo

Be more disciplined

WB-S CD-C CD-C WB-A

RGA-S

WM-A BBM-S CM-A WM-A

TM-S

The wide mids made to play like inside forwards through PIs, the full backs and DM told to close down less, same reason both CD are on cover duty, to counteract the effect of hassle opponents.

On a side note, did you get the pm I sent you? I feel like they don't send from my phone.

No I never did.

[RocheBag]

Ugh, I wrote you a book, took me so long to type up. I had a feeling that it didn't send though... shame

[teej9]

It's really tough to play the counter. It has to be perfect. I play a very similar setup to roche and lose quite a few matches 1-0 where the other hits one from the halfway line. I tend to see many more missed cccs when i play the counter.

[Overmars]

It's really tough to play the counter.

It's been a guaranteed loss for me. When I try it, my team gets outshot badly, out-possessed badly, and is lucky to produce a single scoring chance. It seems like players continually back off and never apply pressure to the ball. Real life countering teams will eventually apply pressure once the opposition attacks deep enough so they can force a turnover and do what the name of the strategy implies they should be doing.

Do you have to use the hassle opponents command to force a turnover?

[peleJunior]

It's been a guaranteed loss for me. When I try it, my team gets outshot badly, out-possessed badly, and is lucky to produce a single scoring chance. It seems like players continually back off and never apply pressure to the ball. Real life countering teams will eventually apply pressure once the opposition attacks deep enough so they can force a turnover and do what the name of the strategy implies they should be doing.

Do you have to use the hassle opponents command to force a turnover?

Have you considered a more aggressive mentality with a deeper defensive line? More aggressive mentalities will also come with more direct default passing and higher tempo. If you flip how you see the mentalities around i.e. Counter/defensive becomes possession and attack/control becomes direct you can then push Counters defensive line up and pull attacks defensive line down via shouts and get more of the desired result.

There are other benefits to this in my opinion, passing technical players tend to have poor physical attributes in the game and don't really suit more aggressive high tempo tactics I.e. Attack/Control but the more low tempo low pressing passing ones I.e Counter/Defensive suits them fine.

[elt]

Have you considered a more aggressive mentality with a deeper defensive line? More aggressive mentalities will also come with more direct default passing and higher tempo. If you flip how you see the mentalities around i.e. Counter/defensive becomes possession and attack/control becomes direct you can then push Counters defensive line up and pull attacks defensive line down via shouts and get more of the desired result.

There are other benefits to this in my opinion, passing technical players tend to have poor physical attributes in the game and don't really suit more aggressive high tempo tactics I.e. Attack/Control but the more low tempo low pressing passing ones I.e Counter/Defensive suits them fine.

This is where i believe taking ALL of the sliders out of the game was a mistake. They should atleast have either kept a certain few sliders or atleast give us the option to specifically see what our attacking tempo width passing etc is.

For Example: theres no way of knowing which has a deeper defensive line: "defend" strategy or "attack" strategy with "very deep defensive line"

[peleJunior]

This is where i believe taking ALL of the sliders out of the game was a mistake. They should atleast have either kept a certain few sliders or atleast give us the option to specifically see what our attacking tempo width passing etc is.

For Example: theres no way of knowing which has a deeper defensive line: "defend" strategy or "attack" strategy with "very deep defensive line"

Well not to be funny but there is the analysis tab and just observation with the naked eye. The match strategies could do with an overhaul on description though. How that would be done I'm not sure, it wold be weird to have it be a descending scale of tempo and aggression though, I know that.

[Overmars]

Have you considered a more aggressive mentality with a deeper defensive line?

Yes, and this exposes me more to clear cut and half chances than a defensive or counter mentality does.

[Ryknow]

I had a very effective counter tactic at my time with Rangers. Ofcourse the SPL quality isn't anything to go by, but my very first season in the UCL we made the quarter finals. 12 seasons or so in a row we came first in the UCL group stage and got a number of semi finals, until the time we eventually won it against PSG. I did all this with a self imposed wage cap (€40k pw) and major focus on youth academy players and other Scottish players.

We would dominate the league (which isn't hard), before I left for Dortmund we cracked the 100 games unbeaten. But even against teams defending deep it worked as it encouraged them to come at us more. In the UCL however we'd just absorb pressure. The opponents would have tonnes of shots with the majority of them from long range or tight angles. The ones on target were either saved or blocked. Then we'd break on a lighting fast counter with either the AP(a) or the DLF(s) feeding the inside forwards for a clear chance.

I setup like:

--------------GK (d)---------------

RB(FB/s)-CB(d)-CB(d)-LB(WB/s)*

---------DM(Anchorman/D)-------

-------CM(DLP/s)--CM(AP/a)-----

IF(a)**-------------------------IF(s)***

--------------DLF(s)---------------

*Would sometimes change LB to a complete wing back. Depending on opposition.

**IF(a) despite being right footed, he'd end up being the best player. 'Plays Narrower', 'Get further forward'. Also had 'Cross less often', 'Cross from deep' but probably best to leave them off, tbh.

***Sometimes changed to a W(s) to let the AP(a) get further into space. Depended on personnel and opponent, also how the game was shaping up.

Team: Counter/Balanced

Pass into space, work ball into box(prob not needed but helped in SPL), play disciplined.

Back line was typical type defenders and fullbacks. CBs Good in air, strong, etc.

AP needed some pace and great attacking attributes, also didn't hurt if his tackling was over 10.

IFs need pace, at least 17 in both acceleration and pace. Generally need great physical attributes.

DLF is the most important cog in the machine. He needs to be able to hold up the ball but most importantly needs good creativity and passing. I've used pure poacher type players in this setup and it was hit and miss, but one you find a creative forward it all clicks. He'll also get a good amount of goals, too, despite dropping deeper as he'll surge forward once the ball is played. But at UCL level he should have at least 13-15 for creativity (and other key mental atts.) and 14/15 for passing.

Worked really well for me, but I tried it when I moved to Dortmund and it wasn't as effective. Not sure our underdog status in the UCL with Rangers helped, even though we eventually had Worldwide status and ranked higher rep than Dortmund. We usually had games where our possession was in the 40% area, which didn't bother us as we'd have far clearer chances due to the quick break.

Not sure if this will help you, but might provide a basis for making your own.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that due to my wage cap and restriction I put on myself, the big teams in the UCL had far better players than me. Meant the competitive level of the UCL was very high, even up until 2027. Due to the number of leagues I've got I think FM14 has some of the best squad building compared to previous editions, or maybe it's just teams buy better.

EDIT 2: A false nine could work well instead, but I preferred the combo of the AP(a) and the DLF(s). I had my striker playing somewhat like Lewandowski during his time at BVB.

[bababooey]

It is absolutely possible to create counter attacking football that creates quality scoring chances. The thing is you have to consider what your formation is (are players in a good position to hurt the other team?), what your approach is (if we play fast or slow, narrow or wide, etc.), and ultimately how much risk you want to take.

Obviously taking more risks can = more chances. But then you'll be leaving yourself open at the back, potentially. So it's a choice for you to make. The various mentalities + whatever team instructions you give shape your answer to that fundamental question of: "how will we play?"

I think in FM sometimes it's better to have multiple approaches ready to go, rather than sticking to one specific style. Why? Because unless you have a truly world class team, like a team that could wipe the floor with Barca, then you're going to have to make some adjustments to consistently get good results. Sticking to one style/approach can cause trouble if you do not have the ability to tweak it, and if your players simply aren't head and shoulders above the rest. Having a back up plan or two can be a huge advantage. And taking advantage of the standard mentality, which is a great way to "feel out" the opponent, is great too.

Hope this helps

[Guest]

Edition 2 of CCC magazine(Edited by cleon I think) there is an article on transitions and counter attacking. It's a very interesting take on how best to achieve it, some of which was touched on already here.

http://clearcutchance.com/2/download/

[bababooey]

People may want to check out Cleon's thread "school of the defensive arts" seen here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/391083-The-School-of-the-Defensive-Arts

Why? Because although Cleon is looking to play a very rigid defensive system, it will counter attack powerfully and create a lot of chances as you see in the post.

However that won't get you a direct approach. Cleon uses a lot of possession oriented instructions like "retain possession" and the lower mentality. But this is just another way of creating a really great counter attack.

Ultimately though I think it just comes down to experimenting with different combinations of mentality, instructions, and roles/duties.

[Overmars]

I get what a lot of posters are saying about how it can work. Yes, it can work, but when I read about examples of it working, often those examples are done with a superior side that is not up against odds as an underdog. When I have used a regular counter setup with an average side, we get about 1-2 shots on target, very few (if any) scoring chances, and around 30% possession.

Perhaps there is realism in that sort of outcome. Actually, that is probably realistic. Nevertheless, it is in stark contrast to past FM games where the human manager could enjoy a bit more fun in overcoming the odds on more than a rare occasion.

[bababooey]

I get what a lot of posters are saying about how it can work. Yes, it can work, but when I read about examples of it working, often those examples are done with a superior side that is not up against odds as an underdog. When I have used a regular counter setup with an average side, we get about 1-2 shots on target, very few (if any) scoring chances, and around 30% possession.

Perhaps there is realism in that sort of outcome. Actually, that is probably realistic. Nevertheless, it is in stark contrast to past FM games where the human manager could enjoy a bit more fun in overcoming the odds on more than a rare occasion.

Have you made your own thread about this? I'd like to see an example of how you've set things up and maybe we can all help you out. Every tactic benefits from a second set of eyes