Tutoring results test

[Veg]

I guess you have a point, but still as I saw another mention in this thread, is that if a clash occurs you can go bakc before the clash happens (if you have saved) and it might not happen again..

[StormenDK]

I guess you have a point, but still as I saw another mention in this thread, is that if a clash occurs you can go bakc before the clash happens (if you have saved) and it might not happen again..

Absolutely ... Personality Clash during tutoring is somewhat random. It does not happen every time, though seem to happen more for some Personality Types than others.

The only constant is the initial reaction ... if the Youngster says 'No benefit' and refuses the tutor from the start, then he will do that every time, if you reload and try again.

[Veg]

Yes the initial reaction is constant. But I did some tests to see if it was possible to change, and if you add the tutorer or tha manager to the youngster favourite personell list he will accept the tutoring. But then again that is cheating.

[StormenDK]

Yes the initial reaction is constant. But I did some tests to see if it was possible to change, and if you add the tutorer or tha manager to the youngster favourite personell list he will accept the tutoring. But then again that is cheating.

Not necessarily .... if you somehow manage to get on the Youngster's preferred list normally in game, then you can match him with the guy he rejects.

Have you noticed if having the tutor as preferred personel helps in any way with the tutoring?

[Veg]

Actually no, it has been a mix of all the possibilities from gained nothing to benefitted..

[StormenDK]

Media-friendly

Volatile

Level-headed

Reserved

Confrontational

Outspoken

Unflappable

Evasive

Please let me know stats if you find/know any other Media Types

So far this is what I have for these:

Volatile: Temperament < 7

Reserved: Controversy < 5 & Professionalism > 14

Unflappable: Pressure > 14 & Temperament > 14

Evasive: Pressure > 14 & Professionalism > 14

Short-tempered: Controversy > 18 & Temperament < 4

Confrontational: Sportsmanship < 8 & Temperament < 8

Outspoken: Controversy > 14

Media-Friendly: Controversy < 15

Level-Headed: Controversy < 15 & Loyalty > 10 & Sportmanship or Professionalism > 11 & Temperament > 6

[StormenDK]

After a few days rest from this, I think I will soon pick it up again, and do more tests. Next project is to create one Tutor and one Youngster for each Personality Type. Then test the Initial Reaction when paired with each other type. Would be nice to know if the Personality Type is the only thing affecting Youngsters rejecting tutoring.

Sadly the Duplicate function in the FM Editor is broken, and any playres created from it doesn't show up in the game. So I have to create each of the 74 players (2 players for each of the 37 Personality Types) from scratch. It will take some time

Also I plan to, once my database changes are done, to upload the xml-files here, in case anyone else would want to test on them

[JackDavies]

Great thread, keep up the good work storm

[DDWZ]

Just posting here to say keep up the good work, I love experimenting myself aswell although I don't use Genie scout so I only do assumptions on the certain personality types. Usually going for High determination first, when that is up I try to up the professionalism of young players as I know this benefits them a lot.

I do think it's weird that we can't see the professionalism stat, as in real life you can easily tell if a player is a professional or not, as well as his ambition right? Maybe an idea to make this visible in the new FM? Just a thought

edit;

I also noticed that I have NEVER had a player reject my tutor when he is the captain. Maybe you could run a test about this to see if the player is a better tutor being the captain or not?

[StormenDK]

Thanks

I only use Genie Scout for this test to see the precise results of tutoring. In my career game I have to guess (more or less) how things went.

Well, you can sometimes see if it is good or not in the player's Media Handling Style. If it is 'Evasive' or 'Reserved' then his Professionalism is above 14. In my tests the 'Light-hearted' tutors seem to clash less often with the youngsters and generally perform better in the amount of stat shifts you get. So a 'Light-hearted' tutor who is also 'Evasive' and 'Reserved' would be an excellent tutor in my book.

I think the hidden stats should be shown if Scout/Coach reports show something about that stat. F.x. if my scout tells me that some player is very Injury Prone, that stat should show up for the player so I don't have to dig through notes or reports to find out what a player's "stat" is. As I am sure I can't remember that half a season later.

I will test that. Should be easy. It is just a matter of making the tutor of one of the failed pairings into a captain and then try again

Right now I am testing to see if a tutor's Influence or Reputation, or a youngster's Age has any impact on tutoring.

[DDWZ]

Looking forward to it.

I agree about the coaching reports. They of all people should be able to tell us how professional a player is, how ambitios he is and even how he handles pressure, right?

Would be a good feauture in the new FM to be honest.

Keep it up!

[Sidder]

definitely, agree about the reports they should only become more detailed the longer the player is at the club..

[Veg]

The coach reports actually gives a clue abot the player personality..

[StormenDK]

Yep it does, and so does the report card from the scouts. Easy way to figure out what it is on a player before you buy him.

[StormenDK]

I just finished a run of tests on the effects of the tutor's influence and reputation, and the youngster's age. I will update my finding shortly

Then I will test what effects being the captain is, and how well tutoring is when the youngster has me as favored personnel, but having had rejected the tutor before.

After that the plan is to go through the initial reactions for each pairing of personalities, as they seem to be consistant no matter how many times I run the tests.

[StormenDK]

Unanswered questions:

- Does age matter in the amount learned during tutoring?? ... Will a younger guy learn more than an older guy?

- Does Reputation of the tutor matter?? ... Will a High reputation tutor be better than a low reputation one??

- Does Influence affect the result??

Age: In my 6 test runs using identical youngsters where one is 15 and the other 21, the results seem to indicate that an older one learns less on average. My 21-year old had 2 personality clashes, 1 'Gained nothing' and 3 'Gained a little', averaging 14.83 in stats shift. While the younger guy got 6 'Gained a little' and had an average of 20,83 in stats shift.

My problem is, that my initial tests (from original post in this thread) didn't seem to indicate any difference regarding age. But in those tests all the youngsters and tutors had different personalities and stats. Also maybe the 6 test runs are too few to say something in general, and that I might just have been unlucky about the number of Personality Clashes for that particular youngster.

Reputation: I made two tutors, one with rep=80 and one with rep=130. The lower reputation tutor scored 20,50 average stat shifts, while the higher one scored 26,17 on average. So does that have influence?? ... I am still not sure. I thought initially that reputation went to 200 (world class). But apparently my 130 tutor only had 'Local' reputation in game. This I found out after the first 5 tests. So I checked Ryan Giggs, and his scores were Current rep= 160, Home rep.= 170 and world rep.=145. So I changed the rep. of the tutor to match his (making him of 'National' reputation) and ran one more test. The stat change was the same as before. I think I might need more test runs on this.

Influence: The Influence score of the tutor does not seem to matter. I had made one with 20 Influence, and one with 8 (all other stats identical). The one with INF=20 gave me an average stat shifts of 18,67, and the INF=8, gave an average of 22,17.

If you want to check the results, look in the 'More tests' work sheet in the spread sheet in the original post.

I personally think that neither of these three factors have any significant influence on the effects of a tutoring, if any at all. But feel free to comment.

[StormenDK]

Original post updated with addition findings regarding Tutoring. A full list of Perosnality Types and their relevant attributes (for FM103) is also provided.

Funny find during my testing . I always thought that Perosnality Type 'Sporting' was a bit of a neutral and not that desirable type to use for tutoring. Then I stumbled across a guy who was 'Sporting' and 'Media Friendly'. I thought "meeh .. not worth using", until I saw his stats in Genie Scout:

DET = 9

INF = 4

ADA = 8

AMB = 18

CON =6

LOY = 10

PRE = 8

PRO = 15

SPO = 19

TEM = 16

Some pretty nice stats overall, and definitely worth using for tutoring despite his average DET and PRE scores. So I guess it shows that you can never be certain, even if you use the lists for Personality and Media Types.

[Saevel]

Just a thought about clashes;

Could it be that we've underestimated the importance of choosing the right of the 3 options (player can learn from, ideal role model etc.) when initiating a tutorship?

I haven't tested this at all, but it occurs to me that maybe it's something we should look further into.

Is there any correlation between the chance of a clash, the difference in reputation/CA between the two players, and which of the 3 options you pick?

For instance, in the example above with Van der Sar and Ben Amos, could it be that it's important to either:

-pick the "role model" choice because Van der Sar is a highly respected goalie with good skill

-pick the "player can learn from" choice because Ben Amos is already a decent goalie

Or maybe the option in between because the difference between the two is just right for that?

I don't know, but it might be something to look into

[StormenDK]

Just a thought about clashes;

Could it be that we've underestimated the importance of choosing the right of the 3 options (player can learn from, ideal role model etc.) when initiating a tutorship?

I haven't tested this at all, but it occurs to me that maybe it's something we should look further into.

Is there any correlation between the chance of a clash, the difference in reputation/CA between the two players, and which of the 3 options you pick?

For instance, in the example above with Van der Sar and Ben Amos, could it be that it's important to either:

-pick the "role model" choice because Van der Sar is a highly respected goalie with good skill

-pick the "player can learn from" choice because Ben Amos is already a decent goalie

Or maybe the option in between because the difference between the two is just right for that?

I don't know, but it might be something to look into

Well according to this post from SI, there is no difference in outcome of the three options. All they do is to determine whether your tutor will be happy or not, depending on their squad status.

Ideal Role model - use for tutors who are Key Players

Adopt Approach - use for tutors who are Important First team members

Learn from - use for tutors who are Backup and Rotation players.

[JimmyWangYang]

from SI, there is no difference in outcome of the three options. All they do is to determine whether your tutor will be happy or not, depending on their squad status.

the only way these three options should be looked at is; how much do you insist that the youngster can learn from the tutor?

the more you insist, the more like/dislike you risk creating between the two players and yourself after the tutoring has ended.

IIRC, a failed tutor relationship could gain as much as 50 points of dislike if you select the "ideal rolemodel" option, whereas if you go with the "learn from" option the risk is only 10 points.

couple of variables I haven't seen mentioned:

- what if one of the players receive an injury during the tutoring? I had Gerrard tutor Lucas successfully 99% of the time on FM2008. however, in one save Lucas received a 1 month injury, and a few days later I got the dreaded message that he "failed" to learn anything.

- how important is the "happiness" value found in Genie Scout? if a player is new at his club or is a foreigner with a low "adaptability" rating, then this value usually starts off at around 40/100.

- do you reach better results when both players speak the same language?

appreciate your efforts, StormenDK, but I believe there are far too many variables at play to reach anything too conclusive. it would be interesting to see a test on who the coaches suggest are good tutoring relationships, and maybe find out if there is a common personality trait in the tutor or the learner that would indicate why they suggest these players. I find the coaches' suggestions very often lead to successfull tutoring.

[StormenDK]

the only way these three options should be looked at is; how much do you insist that the youngster can learn from the tutor?

the more you insist, the more like/dislike you risk creating between the two players and yourself after the tutoring has ended.

IIRC, a failed tutor relationship could gain as much as 50 points of dislike if you select the "ideal rolemodel" option, whereas if you go with the "learn from" option the risk is only 10 points.

couple of variables I haven't seen mentioned:

- what if one of the players receive an injury during the tutoring? I had Gerrard tutor Lucas successfully 99% of the time on FM2008. however, in one save Lucas received a 1 month injury, and a few days later I got the dreaded message that he "failed" to learn anything.

- how important is the "happiness" value found in Genie Scout? if a player is new at his club or is a foreigner with a low "adaptability" rating, then this value usually starts off at around 40/100.

- do you reach better results when both players speak the same language?

appreciate your efforts, StormenDK, but I believe there are far too many variables at play to reach anything too conclusive. it would be interesting to see a test on who the coaches suggest are good tutoring relationships, and maybe find out if there is a common personality trait in the tutor or the learner that would indicate why they suggest these players. I find the coaches' suggestions very often lead to successfull tutoring.

Well you are right about the fact that there is a lot of guesswork, change and variables included in tutoring, and there is no way to guarantee a successful relationship. I am pretty certain that ANY pairing could fail, just that the chances of it happening differs. I am also basing my tests on the actual types used, and not the values behind them. I am not sure if the chances change depending on the values or just the type. I would have to do huge amounts of test runs to determine that.

So I am not trying to make a surefire way of tutoring, but mostly just trying to figure out how it works, so myself and others can have a better chance at making it work, since there is so little documentation on this feature.

You might be right about the interaction options, but so far all I can do (until proven otherwise) is go with what the official sources say about it. That there is no difference between the options, except how the tutor will react. But I must admit that I haven't checked like/dislike ratings of failed pairings at all. Might be a good case for the future.

But there are soooo many different test cases to do on this to try and cover everything. Especially when we don't really know what variables are used in a tutoring. If SI came out and told us, then it would be much easier to test.

[JimmyWangYang]

I think that someone from SI who is following this should just come out and tell us, or at least give a hint on what the key variables are. or is this a case of "you can't handle the truth"?

[StormenDK]

After some extensive testing on Media Handling Types using FMRTE, I have made some corrections to the values:

Volatile: Temperament 3-6

Reserved: Controversy < 5 & Professionalism > 14 & Temperament > 6

Unflappable: Pressure > 14 & Temperament > 14

Evasive: Pressure > 14 & Professionalism > 14 & Controversy < 15

Short-tempered: Temperament < 3

Confrontational: Sportsmanship < 8 & Temperament < 8

Outspoken: Controversy > 14

Media-Friendly: Controversy < 15

Level-Headed: Controversy < 15 & Loyalty > 10 & Temperament > 6 & Sportmanship > 11 or Professionalism > 12

I have updated the original post with the new values too.

[shifty]

Interesting thread

* Youngster has to be 26 or younger to be tutored.

I currently have Van der Sar tutoring Kuszczak though (age 27)

[StormenDK]

Really?? ... strange. I could not get anoyone older than 26 tutored. Are you sure he wasn't 26 when you started the tutoring?

[shifty]

Definitely - I did it right at the start of the game in July. Kuszczak had been 27 for 4 months.

[Veg]

Yeah this is true, I've so far tested this only on GK's I do think outfield players can't be tutored after 26. But this have to be tested.

[StormenDK]

It seems you are both right

These are the rules I have found in my test this afternoon:

* Tutor must be older than Youngster

* Tutor has to be min. 22 years old

* Youngster outfield players can be max. 26 years old

* Youngster GK can be max. 28 years old

Original post has been updated

[jaredk]

great thread! OP helped me understand tutoring better

[crouchaldinho]

Very good thread.

[Bippu]

Wow, what a helpful and useful thread! Thanks a ton, StormenDK!

All those times when I thought the young player gained nothing, when in fact he did gain a lot.

[StormenDK]

Wow, what a helpful and useful thread! Thanks a ton, StormenDK!

All those times when I thought the young player gained nothing, when in fact he did gain a lot.

Well .. he MIGHT have gained alot ... I just think the wording in the news item is a bit misleading, as they youngster said that he was disappointed that he didn't learn more, when he might actually have shifted ALOT, but just didn't get any new moves. I guess if the Tutor have no PPMs, then they will never become friends. I haven't tested or checked that, but seems that the youngster is only happy when he gains one or more PPMs.

[Bippu]

Well .. he MIGHT have gained alot ... I just think the wording in the news item is a bit misleading, as they youngster said that he was disappointed that he didn't learn more, when he might actually have shifted ALOT, but just didn't get any new moves. I guess if the Tutor have no PPMs, then they will never become friends. I haven't tested or checked that, but seems that the youngster is only happy when he gains one or more PPMs.

They are too demanding, no?

Anyway, on a serious note. Suppose that you have a youngster who has a very high PA (say 175) but low ambition, professionalism and maybe even determination. Ordinarily, the youngster will not reach his PA, but if he is tutored by someone with a high Ambition, Professionalism and Determination, is it possible that he may improve enough to reach his PA? Even if the Genie Scout says that he won't?

[StormenDK]

I would guess so ... without good attributes he won't reach his PA, so you would definitely want to tutor him to increase those stats. I think Genie Scouttakes the current not-so-great stats into account when it tells you that he won't reach his potential. If you tutor him to increase those stats, and then check GS again, I am sure it would put him nearer the PA.

[jaredk]

question...

if my guy's tutoring is cut short by being loaned out, does it affect the improvements he would have got if he stayed and finished with the tutoring.

would he gained less by stopping midway?

thx

[StormenDK]

question...

if my guy's tutoring is cut short by being loaned out, does it affect the improvements he would have got if he stayed and finished with the tutoring.

would he gained less by stopping midway?

thx

Yes ... nice and short, huh??

Basically the attributes starts to shift from day one (though there might not be any changes). I have seen people who clashed after a week of tutoring, and the Youngster still got a few changes to his stats.

So if you loan out the Youngster after 90 days, he will only have shifted stats in those 90 days and thus miss out on the last 90 days of potential shifting. But he still got some shifts in the days he was tutored. He might even have gotten one or more of PPMs even if he doesn't complete the whole tutoring period.

[jaredk]

Yes ... nice and short, huh??

Basically the attributes starts to shift from day one (though there might not be any changes). I have seen people who clashed after a week of tutoring, and the Youngster still got a few changes to his stats.

So if you loan out the Youngster after 90 days, he will only have shifted stats in those 90 days and thus miss out on the last 90 days of potential shifting. But he still got some shifts in the days he was tutored. He might even have gotten one or more of PPMs even if he doesn't complete the whole tutoring period.

cheers, i thought as much. i guess i'll keep him then

[StormenDK]

generally it is probably better to tutor a oungster first, to get his important stats (Determination, Ambition and Professionalism) up before you start sending him on loans. The effect of sending an 'Unambitious' youngster to play every week at a lower level, will be significantly less I think, than keeping him for a year or so and trying to get that ambition score up, so he will benefit more from league/cup games.

I makes little sense to send a youngster out from he is 17-20 with bad scores, and then afterwards try to improve them. Then I would rather train him until 19 and then send him out.

[BaYa]

is high temperament good or bad ?

[StormenDK]

is high temperament good or bad ?

High Temperament is good ...

Volatile: Temperament 3-6

Reserved: Controversy < 5 & Professionalism > 14 & Temperament > 6

Unflappable: Pressure > 14 & Temperament > 14

Evasive: Pressure > 14 & Professionalism > 14 & Controversy < 15

Short-tempered: Temperament < 3

Confrontational: Sportsmanship < 8 & Temperament < 8

Outspoken: Controversy > 14

Media-Friendly: Controversy < 15

Level-Headed: Controversy < 15 & Loyalty > 10 & Temperament > 6 & (Sportmanship > 11 or Professionalism > 12)

[BaYa]

I also think low controversy is better isn't it?

very strange but my problem players all have very low controversy (e.g. walcott 1/20) , except for bendtner (15/20)

[StormenDK]

I also think low controversy is better isn't it?

very strange but my problem players all have very low controversy (e.g. walcott 1/20) , except for bendtner (15/20)

yes indeed ... Controversy is best when low.

[Bippu]

You said:"So it seems that you would want 'Reserved', 'Unflappable' and 'Evasive' mainly, as they have good Professionalism scores. 'Level-headed' is ok too as it means most scores are at least average. 'Media-friendly' seems to be a bit like 'Balanced' Personality type, in that all you know is that Controversy is not too high. But other stats could still be low."

So you also agree that Professionalism is the most important attribute as far as CA gain is concerned? In my experience, Ambition is slightly less important and Determination is a lot less important. Of course, Determination is a vital stat for other reasons.

Also, can you elaborate a bit more on how you decide which personality/media handling types are compatible and unlikely to get involved in a conflict? Also, I have had a few cases of conflict but I didn't have to loan/sell anyone. Is that weird or am I just lucky?

[StormenDK]

Seems so, from what I gather from people who know alot more about CA gain and such, than me

No sadly I cannot. I have not yet found any way of being certain if personalities clash or not. It seems to be based on luck. Every personality can clash with any other ... so I think you can even get two Balanced people clashing with each other. The risk of that happening is probably much smaller than if it is a Spineless and Resolute pairing.

I rarely get conflicts either, but they do happen sometimes.

The only thing that is certain is when a youngster refuses to be tutored by an older player. In that case he will always refuse that tutor. Some believe that if you are the youngster's favorite personnel then this won't happen. I just haven't had time to test it yet. I believe that if a youngster flat out refuses to be tutored it has something to do with personalities rather than things like reputation or CA/PA. So some personalities will just not work together. I have yet to test which ones do that.

[Bippu]

Thanks! We will just have to wait for when you decide to test this out

BTW, if you haven't looked this up, you might want to:

http://www.thedugout.net/community/showthread.php?p=2860720#post2860720

[HTC]

anybody knows whats goin on with this matter to FM 11???

i was happy to see that there is for EVERY player the choice "try to play the one/two"

but the most of the players got unhappy when i asked them to...

isnt that the managers decision??? i want them to play the one/two, besides their age and their wish...

i want my DL/DRs my MCL/MCRs and AML/AMRs to play often the one/two...any advice?

anybody knows witch attribute effects the player to be unhappy in such a demand?

sorry for my English..

[crouchaldinho]

Do we know what the waiting period is between finishing with one tutor and starting with another?

Very good thread btw.

[fatalfury833]

Has anyone gotten any luck getting newgens to learn some of the "rare" ppms like "Gets Into Opposition Area" and "Arrives Late In Opposition Area". I have tried around 8 times with different tutors/newgens pairings and they just refuse to learn these moves even when they are pleased with the learning experience

[StormenDK]

Do we know what the waiting period is between finishing with one tutor and starting with another?

Very good thread btw.

I think it was something like a few months for the youngster. I am pretty sure the tutor could start up with another youngster fairly soon after ending one tutoring.

I never made any tests on that, so am not really sure.

[StormenDK]

Has anyone gotten any luck getting newgens to learn some of the "rare" ppms like "Gets Into Opposition Area" and "Arrives Late In Opposition Area". I have tried around 8 times with different tutors/newgens pairings and they just refuse to learn these moves even when they are pleased with the learning experience

It seems that some PPMs are easier to gain than others. My youngsters always seem to gain 'Argues with officials' if the tutor has that one. But I rarely get any of the rare ones.

Does your tutor have other PPMs than those you mention??