daveb653
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Posts posted by daveb653
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So this is my latest iteration, its working ok-ish at the moment, I've just changed the SV from a DLP in CM slot and its better. Also went from attacking to balanced mentality so maybe thats affected it alot to.
My issue is when my SV pushes up it leaves me open to a counter, which I thought would happen but I love the SV role and how dynamic it is.
The CM(s) was an experiment and it actually worked better than i thought it would, other than the counter issue. Now the other thing I noticed was my F9 and IW get in each others way, I could change the IW to a straight winger but I like the overlaps on that side its producing. So I thought maybe drop the F9 into a DM position and use a disciplined DM to recycle possession and prevent counters, that would free up the CM to possibly go onto a attack duty?
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9 hours ago, Blue 4 Life said:
I tried signing Barcelona centre back Todibo. I bid the same amount as Man Utd, my bid got rejected so I thought Man Utd's bid would be rejected as well. Bizarrely, that wasn't the case and Todibo signed for Man Utd for actually, a lower fee than I offered because I offered the whole fee up front and Man Utd broke their fee up into instalments. It's one of several strange things which happen on this game unfortunately.
Totally agree with you about selling players too. I sent a winger out to Real Sociedad on loan, he played well and scored 13 goals, a decent tally for a winger in the Primera Liga. I tried selling this winger the following summer transfer window and the highest bid I managed to receive was 5.75 million. Meanwhile, a winger in the English Championship with stats nowhere near as good as my winger got sold for 16 million having only scored 6 goals in 41 games.
I know this is no help to you, but you're not the only one to suffer from the insane things which happen in this game. Hopefully, FM21 will be a lot more realistic with transfers.
Yea exactly, Liverpools bid for Luis was 43M less than they expected me to pay! Granted it had 10m in addons but still way less.
I'm selling players for half their value just to get them off the books and stop them complaining about lack of game time!
The only one I got good money for was Pogba, PSG paid 105m for him, had no choice to sell him as the squad revolted when i turned the offer down and he sulked
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9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
The left FB looks too conservative to be able to give proper support to his IW, especially with the holding CM on their side. While the other CM is also a holding one (DLP), the attacking support on that flank is much better thanks to the WB on support.
The more attacking striker would make more sense on the right side in terms of tactical balance, given the rest of the setup. Plus, poacher is a fairly static role, so he'll probably need more support from others than your tactic currently offers. This pertains to both space creation through movement and creative support.
Why then the lower LOE? If you use a low LOE, it essentially means you want to play defensive football (either counter-attacking or more passive, such as catenaccio or parked bus).
Any style makes sense as long as you have the right type of players for it. The problem is that your tactic does not really look like supporting such a style.
Thanks @Experienced Defender.
If I explain the reasoning behind each choice could you explain why my choice was wrong and a more appropriate choice?
- The Left Full back was on that role as when I normally create tactics there are vulnerable to counters, so this choice was down to trying to prevent it. The way I read the FB(s) is that they will still overlap just more conservatively, would a FB(a) be better or simply another WB(s) like the opposite side?
- Striker roles can be swapped, the idea behind poacher/F9 combo was a scorer/creator combination with the F9 dropping and giving space for the poacher to explore as the defender would have to follow the f9??
- The lower LOE was simple (in my head at least) it was to compress my team and not allow space in between my lines, which i see as being the biggest weakness of 442? in turn it would allow the option of a fast attacking transition against big teams or draw more defensive team out? I thought by keeping a higher Def Line it would be more attacking in style as I'm looking to play in the oppositions half?
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I didn't mean the style doesn't make sense, just the way I described it
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6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:
I did not ask if you had tried it, but whether you perhaps thought about it. My question was in relation to your following statement:
I believe that for a top team such as man Utd, the wide diamond version of 442 would make more sense than a standard flat 442, because it can allow you to be more adventurous with your style of play.
No i hadn't even considered it, I struggle with balancing tactics already so thought keeping it simple would be better
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6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:
Well, I already told you in my first comment:
It depends on the style of play you want to implement. There are some instructions that point to a counter-attacking style - which btw may not really work for a top team like Utd - but then some other elements of your tactic run counter to it. Therefore, you first need to clearly define your style of football and also to know the exact reason why you want to play that particular style.
@Experienced Defender I made some changes, mind taking a look, its 3 or 4 posts above this. I'm not looking to play Counter attacking par se, just counter if the opportunity arises. My aim is to be defensively solid, whilst playing fairly direct (not possession for the sake of it) attacking football. If that makes sense?
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15 minutes ago, just_joe said:
Best of luck!
Both the CM-de and the DLP-su will hold position (it's a default PI for both). If you have a CM-su and a DLP-de, then the CM-su will push forward and join the attack :-)
Makes sense
Thanks for that hehe
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Is it just me or is the transfer system in FM20 flawed?
So Florentino Luis just signed for Liverpool for 61m, I also bid for him but his club wouldn't accept anything other than his buyout (103m)?!?!?!?!
Why is that? So now Liverpool have SMS and Luis in midfield as there clubs wouldn't accept bids from me.
On another note I cant seem to get rid of anyone I've tried everything, listed, offered to clubs etc but I get stupid low bids AND they want me to pay half the players wage! I mean COME ON, talk about having your cake and eat it. I wouldn't mind one or the other, after all I want the player to leave but seriously!
Any hints or tips would be most welcome at this point
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6 minutes ago, just_joe said:
It's not too bad. I would:
- P-At --> AF-At (to create more chances)
- CM-De --> CM-Su
- DLP-Su --> DLP-De (to better balance central midfield and link better with the forward line)
Lower line of engagement doesn't really match with your high level of pressing - set it to at least standard.
Work ball into box also doesn't really match with your attacking style. In actual fact, I'd set shoot on sight to counteract the default player instructions that are set for some of those roles.Doing that makes it quite a risky tactic in possession however, which would probably mean you start giving the ball away too easily, so then I'd set shorter passing or a lower tempo to help you keep hold of the ball.
Hope that helps!
Thanks @just_joe The Lower line is only used to keep the team compact, so I'll move it up and see how it goes.
Why the swap of the defend and support duties? just curious to your reasoning
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Made a couple of changes after watching a game, felt we gave up to much time on the ball between my mid and defence, now I fear we wont have alot of support for the strikers, also changed a few instructions, how does this look now?
This brought me to another question, if you play with a DM (not the role just a player in the DM slot) does it push the defence lower or midfield higher or does he just slot right between?
Just thinking if this current iteration doesn't work I may have to think about 4-1-4-1 or 4-4-1-1. I guess I am a little concerned that my midfield is going to struggle constantly as most team play with 3 in midfield.
Ideally i want to turn this into a long term tactic to build my team on. I still want 4-4-2 (or 4-4-2DM) if its viable but as long as my striker is my main scorer and I can play with a flat 4 in mid field then I dont mind dropping a striker in favour of an AM or DM if it brings better balance.
@Experienced Defender What benefit does wide diamond midfield bring for you to ask if I had tried it?
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11 hours ago, 3LionsFM said:
Here's my 442 I'm using with a fictional London City steam workshop team with a squad full of wonderkids. Currently in Vanarama League South.
Mentality - Positive
Team Instructions
Wide and Slighly higher tempo (part of mentaliy.)
Higher DL
Distribute to FBs
Tactics
AF(a) DLF(s)
WM(s) CM(s) CM(d) WM(a)
FB(a) CD(d) CD(d) FB(s)
GK(d)
I am storming an admittedly easy league with the caveat of having a relatively strong team. 14 games won. 1 draw so far.
I almost made exactly the the same roles, (but LW was always a winger) but the guy I want to use as the "second" striker wasn't suited at all to DLF, so had to choose to dropping him into AM slot or making him a treq or F9. My main worry with the CM(d) was he would sit to deep and split my midfield, which may already have its work cut out against common formations. I'm not entirely sure if there's any difference at all other than individual mentality but i made my CM(s) a pseudo defensive duty by adding hold position and less risky play.
How do you find the AF? It was a toss up between that and poacher but I wanted my "main" striker to stay central and found in other formations my AF tended to drift out wide alot.
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10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
Honestly, I personally don't like it. But I would nevertheless encourage you to test the tactic first and see if it works or not. Maybe the quality of your players can compensate for tactical imbalance and lack of clarity about the style of play.
Have you maybe thought about the wide 442 diamond?
@Experienced Defender If possible could you tell me why you don't like it and what you would change? It's made with a rough idea of what i want players to do in each role, but my interpretation of roles maybe some way off.
I considered a couple of other formations, but honestly never a 442 wide diamond as I have an abundance of Central midfield talent (although Pogba has just handed in a transfer request). The others I considered were 442 with 2 dm, 4141 and 4411. But i discounted each one for varying reasons, again maybe wrongly
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Ok, here goes. End of the first season, I won the league with Man Utd.
I didn't score all that many goals and it was using a 4-1-2-3 or 4-2-3-1 for most of the season.
So my aims for this season:
- Create a tactic that makes my striker the main goal scorer.
- No 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-2-3 (its all i've played on FM)
- No 3 at the back system, I have good Fullbacks/wingers so I want to use them.
This left me with so version of 4-4-2/4-1-4-1/4-4-1-1. I discarded 4-1-4-1 (for the time being at least) as I have some good AM/ST options coming through.
So............. I went for 4-4-2, kind of inspired by Fergie (I am managing Man Utd after all).
How does this look in terms of balance/roles and instructions?
I'm unsure about the RPM, I'm thinking maybe he will roam to much and leave me short in an already short midfield? So maybe a dlp(s) or even another cm(s) would be better?
The other role I'm unsure of is the F9, will he drop too deep?
What do I expect from this setup?
- I expect my poacher to be my main scorer, finishing moves off and picking up any sniffs/rebounds bad back passes etc.
- The F9 will still get a fair sure of goals but he should be my foil, he drops and gives defenders decisions to make.
- Main creators will be the RPM and WM, I have him set up as a WP with PI's but with cross more.
- The winger will be more of a goal threat whilst still providing assists (I expect him to score more than the WM but assist less)
- The right Fullback will assist more and overlap more whilst the Left fullback will give passing options rather than bombing down the wing.
Do these roles and instructions complement what I'm trying to acheive? What could be changed/improved (and why) this is my first real self built tactic, I have made other but lent heavily on other tactics and simply adjusted them (very slightly) for my players.
I know I could have used other duties, eg Right fullback on attack, but I've been reading @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! articles (hoping you stay) and Im trying to stay fluid in shape and keep a compact shape to give some nice passing combos and compact defensive shape. Also means individual player mentalities aren't Very attacking, so i used overlap and PI's to (hopefully) acheive some good overlapping play.
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13 minutes ago, skyline72 said:
Pogba and Martial is playing that AM and ST role for me.
They are scoring for fun.
Martial has been absolute rubbish for me, granted I play on the left to give greenwood game time but just never performs, even up front. Pogba is class but got torn knee ligaments at he start of this season and now has acceleration of 9 and 10 pace (not sure what he starts with). But still performs well.
how do you set up your front 4 to get them scoring? Overall I'm happy with my tactic, but just want my Am and ST to be creating/finishing more chances. Rashford was my top scorer from LW on 12, though I had a fair few different scorers.
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51 minutes ago, skyline72 said:
That match was using 4231.
Oh really? That surprises me for some reason, I just assumed it would be 4-1-2-3. I'm still struggling to get my AM involved and ST scoring as much I'd like in my 4-2-3-1, though Im using 2 Dm's in mine.
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10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
Because it's a top-heavy system without a DM, so I don't want to undermine my defensive solidity with an overly attack-minded fullback. But in a 4123 wide - as a more balanced system - WB on attack could be an option. Of course, it's just my personal approach, but it does not mean that you have to follow it.
Yes, WB on support instead of FB on attack can also work. As always, depends on what exactly you want to achieve.
Thought as much
thanks.
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46 minutes ago, skyline72 said:
Wonderful team goal.
Nice Goal
Is this using the 4-1-2-3 posted earlier in this thread?
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On 31/05/2020 at 02:11, Experienced Defender said:
Speaking specifically about the 4231, I would either avoid playing an inside-oriented role (IF/IW) on both flanks - because I don't want to create a jam in the middle where there already is the AMC - or would at least play them on different duties. In the latter case, I would make sure my fullbacks are played in roles that can provide enough attacking width. On the side of my support-duty IW/IF, I would look to have a naturally overlapping fullback role (in a 4231 that would be FB on attack duty) with a holding CM (ideally DLP) who should both provide defensive cover and help recycle possession when needed,
@Experienced Defender mind if I ask why a FB over a WB? Is it for the extra defensive stability provided form a FB? Just curious as I thought a wing back would more readily overlap, but by putting him on support you wouldn't lose to much defensive-ness. I actually prefer he FB A role, I was jus curious as to why you chose it, everydays a school day
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3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:
Well, the tempo will be lower, so that's (at least partly) what you're seeing. You can modify the default tempo, but overall it will be lower on Defensive compared to Attacking.
What could contribute on the other hand, is that players will look to play safer, so there may not be safe options available or those options aren't spotted quickly enough etc. Tactical tweaks could improve this, of course.
Yeah exactly that @HUNT3R I think its trying to play safe as its usually my FB/WB that get caught out, but then again I'm still a newbie with tactics so stil experimenting and learning so swap and change quite a bit to see how things work. I have to admit it seems easier to make more stable and entertaining football using the higher mentalities.
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21 hours ago, Rashidi said:
The game is fundamental once you begin with defensive line and line of engagement, and end with deciding what mentality you want. I have been playing on twitch on very attacking mentality for the last few weeks just to show that its ultimately your line of engagement and defensive line that are important.
Thats the one thing I still cant get my head round, its just the wording, as soon as I see Very attacking i imagine my players running round like headless chickens, storming forwards with no regards to defensive responsibility etc Vice Versa for Very defensive, although one thing I have noticed is that when I play on more defence biased mentalities my players seem to become alot slower on the ball, almost like they cant make a decision, they get caught in possession alot etc. Again its probably to do with me incorrectly setting up instructions etc but just an observation i made.
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On 07/12/2019 at 11:00, Rashidi said:
You have to stop thinking of mentality being the way of making a tactic defensively sound or give it the basis of being counter attacking. The ONLY factor that determines whether a tactic is defensive or not is line of engagement/defensive line.
When you want to be defensive you are essentially trying to draw teams in and hit them on the break. To draw teams in you use line of engagement. The deeper your line the deeper your team drops. This is why people get everything wrong about playing defensive football.
Note when playing on a much lower defensive line with a lower line of engagement. Note how defensive a posture your team takes when they are playing on a much lower defensive line, everyone is playing inside your defensive third. Also note what your defensive third zone looks like.
We are still playing with a lower line of engagement, but now we have shifted the defensive line, when you are playing with a much higher defensive line note where your backline is standing, so any ball over the top is gonna be an issue forcing the entire team to run backwards. Since everyone is further forward when you have the ball. Now note how your zones have shifted as a result of shifting the defensive line up. What does this mean for playing on a much higher defensive line? Your team as a whole is also playing higher up the pitch. This is the reason why I tell people if the ball goes over the top and you see defenders chasing after the ball your defensive line is too high.
When you play on a standard defensive line, note the number of players in the zones now. Its more balanced, you have the 2 DMs operating at the edge of your final third and you have your 2 wide midfielders operating in the middle third.
The issue most people have is choosing the wrong LOE and DL when creating tactics, if you understand its interactions which is simple if you just pay attention to the grid its not hard.
So what you want to be doing is simple:
Defensive football - Low LOE,
How do you choose who commits to transitions - Choose Defensive line
Finally mentality is the amount of risk you want to take to guide decision making in your team. If you are not sure just start with balanced. Even on balanced you get good defensive play because your team balances out attacking vs being defensive. You still look for chances to attack, your LOE and DL will define how attacking/defensive you are, and your mentality guides how they make decisions. If you start thinking with mentality and think that is the source of choosing a tactical style, you are doing it wrong. Start with LOE and DL and then decide your mentality. Its sounds counter intuitive to some people, but its actually very simple if you start with DL/LOE first. There is a lot of potential with what you can do when you think like this, such as my video showing how i play counter attacking football playing on very attacking mentalities.
The UI in the game provides a lot of information, provided people actually stop to look. the way they frame mentality and the words they use for it need to be changed, that though is a different discussion that i am unwilling to engage in, cos its a pointless debate that just frustrates people. This is a game, play it like one. Find out the rules and play within them and use them to bend the game to your will.
Sorry this may be a bit of a Necro, but i've been reading up on defensive strategies again. Got some really big games coming up, this really, really helped me with the whole counter, thirds of the pitch and how players in each third acted. I see alot of people still posting how "defensive tactics" dont work, hopefully they will read this thread and learn a couple of things, I know I did !!!
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@Djuicer indeed its far more creative and aggressive in my opinion. I may have to give the REG/HB a try, though I will wait to read your posts first
Maybe the best of both worlds with the HB, as its another role I like and maybe the movement of a HB is what I'm trying to get with PI with my DM, just a little further forward.
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@Djuicer looking forward to the next installment then, shame REG/SV didnt work. I love the regista role, but people in discord seem to dismiss it as dlp(s) with roams from position. But its much more in my opinion. The passes are far more expansive and you have the struggle of balancing the team as he has to be in a DM slot
But its a role that would most certainly fit your playstyle and you have fantastic players for the role.
Very interested to see why you chose tha combo over a dm(s)/sv combo as thats what im currently using to some success, though I do have to make changes.
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@Djuicer I recently started using a 4-2-3-1 again, after getting a little frustrated with the 3-4-3/ 5-2-3 set-up.
Couple of questions, do you not find yourself a little to open in midfield with an SV and Reg? There probably my 2 favourite roles in fm20, but chose SV/DM(S) (with hold position PI) to provide a bit more cover when my SV goes into the box?
Looking forward to your front 4 as I've tinkered around a bit with mine, its not performing too badly ut i feel they should be contributing more.
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Thanks for that hehe
Maybe the best of both worlds with the HB, as its another role I like and maybe the movement of a HB is what I'm trying to get with PI with my DM, just a little further forward.
4-4-2, critique and advice please.
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Yeah, I'm seeing that now, I think I've been kind of spoilt with formations in the past by picking popular ones that are relatively easy to balance. Plus playing as Man Utd I'm blessed with decent players so mistakes are hidden in some ways.
Yeah it made sense to me, the poacher being fairly single minded in his goalscoring and the F9 being a creative influence. I did have issues though when I was watching games.
I've just recently posted a change(s) I made or propose to make, if they make sense within how I want to play.
Ah yeah, I didnt think of it like that, would be just playing out a stale possession game I guess. I have adjusted it, out of possession is one of my weaknesses is though, I really struggle with seeing how instructions play out.