[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

3 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

For the "anchorman" - Tackle harder, Shorter passing, Take fewer risk. You can teach him PPM(Stay back at all times).

Thought as much, I really like the Carr role in FM20, seems to be the best middle ground midfielder, good solid support for both defence and attack, not overly biased one way or the other. 

Just a good solid CM

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

4 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

False 9 - Roam from position, Close down more.

One of the Carrilero to act like a box to box.

The other 1 to act like a anchor man.

 

How do you get you're carr to act like an anchorman? I've tried before but there's no option to hold position, just make him less risky?

Close down more in opposition instructions? F9 doesn't have an option for more pressing, when in an extreme press already, in fact i don't think any players do  

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

3 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

Steamrolling through.

Though sometimes, my team decide to not score and have that odd loss..... Well, it happens right? 

Unfortunately it does    Do you use many Pi's?

 

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

5 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

I had both Carrilero the mark the AMR/AML positions of the opponent.

And put your fastest CB and the LCB and RCB. 

Makes sense, I guess. Looks like it plays some sweet football. How were you're results overall?

[Shadow Striker]

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I didn't want to use it, even I made a successful tactic with 4-1-2-3  Plus alot of tactics are built around it, so wanted to try something different for a change.  

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

9 hours ago, skyline72 said:

You definitely need players who are intelligent, have the technique to do so.

 

The roles and shape is what I got it from @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! from his fantastic 343 Diamond thread.

After that, I watched the Ajax video from the same thread and tinker with the TIs.

Excellent thread, that formation looks interesting, but do you not find you get hammered down the flanks? or does the combination of carrilero and the wingers do enough to cover?

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

I did have a notion to try and train Pogba there, I have cover for midfield and can make it more reserved if required then, I don't like giving Pogba too much defensve responsibility. but he has just done hi knee ligaments so out for 3 months . Typical

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

@skyline72 Awesome goals, how did you get that shape and passing combinations, some excellent one touch football at times

[Shadow Striker]

Yeah I can see why. More high risk would be a 4-3-3 or 4-1-2-2-1 / 4-1-4-1 wide DM or whatever its called nowadays  

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

Also DLF, united dont really have anyone suitable do they? Martial is ok there i guess? but if needs be I can buy in the transfer market so any recommendations much appreciated.

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

Won my last 2 friendlies pretty comfortably, 3-0 vs Ajax and 5-0 vs Olympiacos, so pretty happy so far, CM(D) and RPM seem a good combination so far so leaving them, also the switch to DLF was a good shout @Djuicer. One thing I have noticed, is my striker often closes down the gk, no matter what I do, theres no added pressing, Think im positive mentality so its just whatever the auto is for that. no Extra closing down PI's he just does it, which then it turn leaves the CBs open to an easy pass out, which is not what I want, I want the CB to be allowed the pass be be closed down or prevented from forward passes so he has to go across the backline.  Anyone else noticed this?

 

Also teams are sitting back against me, it doesnt bother me as Ajax played cautious mentality and had 1 shot all game on target. but would Play out of defence OR (not both) distribute to CB/FB be a appropriate shout to try and draw them out a bit?

[Shadow Striker]

@Experienced Defender ah ok, no probs, let me guess, a 4-1-4-1 is better for possession?

[Shadow Striker]

yes thats my preferred option, either 442 or 4411. Mainly because almost all the formations I have used have been 4123 in this edition, I ant to make something with a bit of a flavour difference, hence the counter style too. Hopefully I'll be able to create a possession one to so I can use it against teams who sit very deep (if needs be). 

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

17 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

Agreed. They have a great starting XI with some decent back up but as I said, 4-4-1-1 isn't my long term goal with this Leicester team. Your thread with Manchester City is probably more relevant long term than a counter attacking set up.

Anyway, I just decided to throw it into the tactics creator. I opted to use the "Fluid Counter" preset just as a base but I changed the mentality from Cautious to Positive & went with this: 

PF (A)

AM (A)

IW (A) - CM (S) - CM (D) - W(S)

WB (S) - CD (D) - CD (D) - FB (S)

SK (D)

CM (S) - Hold position. W (S) - Get Further Forward. This gives me an individual mentality distribution of: 

Very Attacking

Very Attacking

Very Attacking - Positive - Cautious - Positive

Positive - Cautious - Cautious - Positive

Cautious

Two positions to watch for me would be the Attacking Midfielder & the MCL because of their individual mentalities. 

 

Though that could lead to some nice overloads for the right winger to get some space could it not?

 

Now theres the question, could this 4-4-1-1 be turned into a possession based tactic as well?

After this is a thread about how flexible a 4-1-4-1 is

Could have a tactic for teams sitting back against you, plus this one for when the big guns come visiting. 

[Shadow Striker]

Yes a flat 4-1-4-1, just wondering if theres any benefit other than starting position, form placing them higher up the pitch? I would have thought that having them sat in a lat 4 would benefit compactness and shape, although they would be sat further back during transition.

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

1 minute ago, Djuicer said:

Fernandes would be good SS I guess, or a really exciting AP.

I think the DLP (if its not the most defensive midfielder) is too conservative in 4-4-1-1 for my taste.  Not wrong or bad though. Not just what I prefer.

yeah I think your right, Dlp was far to passive. Plan is for midfield: rashford/pogba/mctom/james. With fernandes as SS. Also bought a youngster in to rotate with him so pogba and fernandes will rotate as required to.

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

5 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Vardy

Maddison

Barnes-Tielemans-Ndidi-Perez/Gray

Chilwell-Evans-Söyncu-Pereira

Schmeichel.

 

Strong starting eleven with lots of potential  Good pick for 4-4-1-1.

oooft, nice

 

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

11 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

I think it's more important to have the right balance of roles & individual mentalities than it is to focus on the overall team mentality. For example it depends on where you want your counter attacks to come from. If it's in a 4-4-1-1 then I would expect you want them to come from your wingers & front two in which case, I would focus on the two CBs & CMs having mentalities no higher than balanced. I also wouldn't use a BWM in a tactic that you want to be defensively solid as he'll run around all over the place like a headless chicken! 

I'd be interested to see how a SS would partner with some kind of PF (maybe even on attack considering we want to counter).

I just started a save with Leicester & whilst I want to turn them into a team that dominates the ball we're not quite there yet. I've also played 11 games & played all of the "established" top 6 except for United so trying out some sort of counter attacking tactic would've been perfect then! 

Yeah thats what I'm aiming for some nice wing counters. I thought the same for the BWM, but he seemed to do pretty well, maybe its because were fairly compact so the headless chicken is caged so to speak, but he was far better doing the dirty defensive work than my dlp I tried, and also supported the other midfield better than my dlp, whic surprised me to be honest. i bet Leicester would be an excellent team to do this on as well. The SS I really enjoyed watching in my other team, but he isnt the same in this one, only time will tell, though I think he needs space to run into, so PF may not be ideal, I had him in an experimental ss/treq/poacher front line, and he dd pretty well there, was the best to watch at least with his marauding runs.

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

5 hours ago, Djuicer said:

I think you can create the split press with PIs only. No need for either counterpress or regroup for that. Higher Dline with PIs and no CP/RGRP would be enough. Less is very often more.

Regarding CP I think you are understanding it correctly.

 

He will be more static then the CMs. I get your point, a playmaker is not always needed. I think the IW with an attacking duty would be creative enough.  Many roles can create but probably as much as a playmaker.

Deep lying forward would be my starting point. You can use a target man moulded player in that position. Still the targetman is not bad or wrong in any way. Its just my personal preference to use other roles. It creates more varied attacking patterns IMO.

I can try something out. I suppose you still want the SS?

DLFs
SS

Ws-Cms(APs would work if you want a playmaker, DLP too)-CMd/BWMd-IWa

IWBs/d-BPDd-CDd-WBs/FBs
GK/SKd/s

 

Is it the starting united squad?

 

If it is than I would flip some parts of it. Rashford or Martial as either SS or winger on the left, only that I would change that role to the IWa and switch the wings completly.

Ex 
Rashford/Martial/Greenwood as DLF
Rashford/Martial/Mata/Greenwood or some1 else as SS
Rashford/Martial/James/Gomes or some1 else as IWa on the left.

@Djuicer Yes its the starting Utd squad so far, but Ive got a winter update so Maguire/Fernandes are there also.

 

You know its funny, I was commenting on another thread of mine with experienced defender and working things out, I got almost the same as you, except I had dlp(d)/Rpm as my midfield pair, but decided im going back to either a cm(d) or bwm, instead of DLp, it felt to static, didnt help much in the build and also, didnt really get involved in the defensive side, he was just a passenger. Could be player related but McTominay always seems to play well and he suits bwm so....

I even had an IWB  played williams and he had an excellent game. Granted it was only pre-season, but I was more than happy

[Shadow Striker]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, I'll share a pretty common example of such type of tactic:

DLFat

IWsu                           Wsu

BWMsu   CMat

DMde

FBat   CDde  CDde   FBsu

SKde

In terms of mentality, it's always advisable for a tactical beginner to start with the Balanced (just as @Britrock rightly pointed out  )

In possession - higher tempo and pass into space would be a good starting point for a counter-attacking tactic you are looking to create (leave other instructions on default for now)

In transition - distribute quickly and counter (but even that may not always be necessary, even if the tactic is counter-minded)

Out of possession - lower LOE and get stuck in

Player instructions - only the striker and CM on attack duty to close down more

If you want to try this particular tactic, first make sure you have a suitable player for each role. It's also very important to watch the matches carefully and make small gradual tweaks exclusively based on what you observe, and only if tweaking is really necessary (do not make tweaks just for the sake of it). 

That's the easiest way to learn how to create sensible tactics. Of course, some trial and error is certainly going to happen. But if you are determined enough, it will surely pay off in the end. 

@Experienced Defender Thanks so much, I have a couple of questions about the above example. I presume there's no playmakers so that play isn't slowed down during transition?

Have you any other suggestions for a DLF if i do try it? Thats probably the only role I haven't got a player for.

Lastly, would this work as well if i dropped the wide midfielders back into the MR/ML slots? What would be the advantage/disadvantage? 

[Shadow Striker]

@Experienced Defender Well the defensive side of a tactic, as in, I wouldn't want to go and park the bus anywhere as its one of the least entertaining football matches to watch. so something that could be used as a start. After all if you cant keep a clean sheet you wont win a league. I've just yet to see any tactic that actually uses more defensively minded mentalities.

So lets say an example of a typical tactic where you want to soak some pressure, allow the opposition to over commit then hit them on the break.

[Shadow Striker]

15 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I'll obviously have to quote my own post from another thread to help you understand the team mentality and what it is about. Read carefully: 

With all other things (instructions) being equal (default):

- the lower the mentality, the slower attacking transitions (actually tempo); and conversely - the higher the mentality, the faster attacking transitions (this explains why it's easier to create a counter-attacking tactic under a bit higher mentality)

- the lower the mentality, the more risk-averse players are in terms of passing; but this at the same time means that they will be more likely to simply hoof the ball clear when under pressure than trying to pass it around patiently and sensibly (therefore, the notion that lower mentalities suit possession-oriented styles of football is not entirely correct, except when it comes to so-called defensive possession football);

- the lower the mentality, the more passive/less aggressive players will be when defending (pressing urgency and tackling intensity); logically, the opposite is true for higher mentalities;

- the lower the mentality, the less creative freedom and freedom of movement players will generally have (although this is also partly affected by their roles); the opposite is true for higher mentalities;

- the lower the mentality, the narrower attacking width; the higher the mentality, the wider width (proportionally)

- the lower the mentality, the (proportionally) deeper both D-line and LOE will be; the opposite goes for higher mentalities

- the lower the mentality, the deeper relative (initial) positioning of players will generally be. The opposite applies to higher mentalities

OK, its obvious I grasped totally the wrong end of the stick for more defensive minded mentalities  

 

Its no wonder we don't see much in the way of defensive biased mentalities.

@Experienced Defender can you give me a basic example of how a defensive strategy would set-up? Also how would you go about setting up an early premier league, fergie style football style?

 

To update I played a game using the more attack minded version (thankfully I decided against using the defensive one) was going alright, not great. Tha is until maguire got sent off in the 54th minute and we conceeded the penalty. we then scored a set piece and 2 on the break after Olympiacos went into a more attacking mentality, so it kind of worked. Half time had brought some changes, I raised the tempo much higher, as we still seemed pretty slow on the ball at times, also after the sending off I took of the SS (hes been pretty ineffective so far disappointingly) and changed my TM to an AF which seemed to work as it gave us an out ball.

Most impressed with my CM(S) so far seems to be involved in everything, driving up the pitch and doing the leg work in his defensive duties. I thought he might have been the one to change over my 2 mids, but if I do decide to change a role, at the moment it would be the BWM.

 

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

@retrodude09 sorry, only just realised it was someone different to Djuicer, yeah I see the theory behind it, makes total sense. I guess the "attacking-defenvisely solid" could well be better than trying to set-up a "defensively solid-attacking" tactic, if that makes sense?  

Also on side note about Target Man, there bloody hard to come across in game, a true dying breed. What other roles would you use, assuming I keep my SS as the AM.

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

@Djuicer I understand what you're saying, but im not 100% confident on how the regroup/counter press works or is triggered. My thinking may be way off, but the idea behind the regroup is that I'm going to split press, so my 5 most attacking players will press, but I want to be, considered when they do, not running around like headless chickens. So the thinking was regroup into playing positions then when the opposition hit my LOE then we start the press.

 

By having counter press activated does that not mean as soon as we lose the ball we stat chasing to get it back? If so then would I not need to move my LOE higher? or id have single players breaking my shape to counter press.

Like I said I am probably way off on my interpretation of it.

 

The idea of the first tactic was to have minimum playmakers so play wasn't slowed down and we weren't caught with players far out of position, I considered (and still am) a DLP on s but i fear he wont support as much as a cm-s does?

Am I right in thinking the defensive version could be used to see out games? 

 

Also please feel free for anybody to contribute, how would you all set your players and roles in a system like this?

[4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.]

@Djuicer yeah that was my interpretation but I was planning to go the  opposite way, using defensive or cautious to remain solid at the back (low risk) and use attacking duties  TI's to influence the attacking phase. 

I guess there are merits for both, but looking a the image you attached I'm guessing I'd need more PI's or TI's to achieve what I'm after?

Currently my 2 versions look like this, thought its still very much in its infancy, I haven't played any matches yet, so there are minimal instructions other than those I feel will eliminate being dominated by the opposition (standard or higher line). 

I'm having trouble deciding on the in transition part and how they actually work, but thats maybe a decision for later.

Attacking version

 

 

Player Mentalities:

                 BAL

                  VA

POS   POS   BAL   POS

POS   BAL   BAL   ATT

                POS

Not sure if that would be classed as balanced really as there are no mentalities lower than balanced? But I'm also finding that a simple change here results in massive mentality changes, so maybe attacking is a "notch" to far? For example my midfield is either that or VA I cant seem to get any on attacking.

 

Defensive Version

 

Player Mentalities:

              POS

              POS

BAL   POS   CAU   POS

BAL   DEF   DEF   POS

Although I called this defensive, the actual mentality is Cautious as i really struggled to get anything to positive. As you can see No attacking cuties, so maybe its not enough going forward? Play through the middle is used to get the defs to defensive rather than very defensive, also raises the BWM to. I've just noticed the overlap left is left on, which is affecting the LB and LW so I'll mabe have to change that so we some variation.