[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

Off Topic but just noticed Pogba's acceleration and pace are down to 10 and 11 respectively after his knee ligament injury 

 

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

19 minutes ago, Powello said:

Possibly yeah. I'm definitely not changing the BBM, I like how he plays

Yeah I meant cm(s) and bbm together.

16 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Same. Without the standard holding midfielder BBM provides the grit in the midfield. I think instead of mezzala maybe use CM(s) with more playmaker PIs and no "Roaming". He would act better as a dynamic link between the libero and the inside forward. So after libero I would put the next best playmaker there basically.

Playmaker without the playmaker role  

Jus played Leeds in the cup, so put the libero on attack, acts more like a HB really, sits infront of the other 2 cds, doesnt seem to surge forwards to much like I thought. May have to give it a few more games there.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

4 minutes ago, Powello said:

Probably doesn't help to be fair lol I'm going to try cm s/a as well

Hmm, if you do bbm and cm(S) could free up the libero to be on attack duty! 

 

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

I wonder what's the big difference between Libero on attack versus support really is. I will have to test both I guess. Maybe on attack duty he will act even more as a dynamic playmaker in midfield.

Yeah, I tried on one of my saves, hes alot more aggressive in his forward runs, when I tried I had Ajer there, he'd pass the ball forward then sprint after i pretty much  

I think hed rack up more assists/shots/goals, wheras on support he would mae the key pass before the assist so to speak

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

I always thought that using another playmaker in front of libero wasnt advisable but maybe I'll give this a chance 🙂 thanks! Both of my mezzalas (Chiquinho and Tiago Dantas) are more like advanced playmakers anyway.

 

Yeah, I dont think it is, I just felt he mezz wasnt really involved as much as Id like, but he did score before I switched so maybe worth persisting with it, will link up nicely with the wb and IF too I guess.

 

I think it would affect the Libero more if it was on attacking duty really, as he'd be heading into centre mid area as the "playmaker" so you dont want more around him.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

Yeah, like it says its just having the balls to play him on attack  

I saw the SMS in the libero role on a youtube video I think when i was trying to find out info on roles and partnerships.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

Ive tried this too, works pretty well, though i do tend to swap the ss for a dlf, as you mentioned he seems to drop really deep. Also changed the mezz to an AP, seems to work pretty well. 

Only other change I make is situational, I occasionally make one of the wide players an attacking duty if im really dominating but not scoring.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

20 minutes ago, Powello said:

I thought I would give this a go as I have been trying to get a 343 working and gave up before but after reading what you said about your current one @crusadertsar it sparked my interest again.

So I have started off with yours as a base and added a couple of my own tweaks and I have to say, I see why you like it. It does provide some great moves/goals. Only played 3 games with it so far though, also only conceded about 6 shots in total so solid at the back. 

I have played Tuanzebe, Garner and Mctominay as the Libero. SO far Tuanzebe has been great in the defensive side of it, literally everywhere stopping attacks. He does bring it out of defense but doesn't usually gives it to bruno or pogba. Garner and Mctominay do bring it out further but neither relly act as playmakers, leaving that to the 2 I mentioned earlier. Definitely can play a midfielder there. I was scouting to see if I can find a player who could fit and I found one at Benfica who is perfect for it, Gabriel.

I think with the right PIs and traits the libero can be a good playmaker though

I think you have definitely found a good base to work with.

Going to be a proper test of it soon as Maguire is injured so I might be having to play Fred in either the BPD or Libero role, probably the latter due to his height and , but again he has the stats to do it

 

if you have money and are sticking with it, Milinkovic-savic is a beast as a libero.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

28 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

Sorry, out of topic.

How many players do you guys put in 1 mentoring group?

I got a few players have their determination drop. (Too many in 1 group?)

I have 1 strong character with good determination and 3 youngsters. But I make sure the "leader" has significant influence and the wonderkids are light.

Pretty hard with UTDs squad as theres only a couple with really good personalities and good determination (fernandes, mctom is ok)

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

13 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

Is the same in the EPL as I am managing Man Utd. Smaller teams like to use 352, 4231, 532, etc with 2 DMs. That's a big problem.

I am laboring to 1-0 wins past few games thanks to Direct Freekick and Corners.

Yeah me too, I thought we weren't the big boys anymore  

Im liking these set-ups

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

7 hours ago, Powello said:

I'm using a ss in my 433 instead of a striker and it's working great. I've seen him drop right into my half then next minute he's up the other end finishing a move he started back there 😊

Yeah seems to be a great role

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

4 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

What system are you using right now?

 

I'm using both the 3-4-3 and the 4-3-3 away version from earlier in this thread. Normally use the 3-4-3 against teams that are going to be a little more open, but for teams that come and sit in a defensive mentality I tend to use the 4-3-3 as it grinds them down.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

3 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

Do it!

Hahahah. I restarted my save.

Bugger  

I thought I had to, my PC crashed 2 nights ago, when i rebooted it didn't even recognise steam. But started tonight and alls back to normal??? funny things PC's.

 

Ill try the 4-3-3 tinkering, may try the 3-4-3 later in my save, I'm hot on the heels of City who are top on goal difference just now, Liverpool been beaten twice, by me and watford. Only us and City undefeated now.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

I had an idea to put the 1 (or both) wide players IF on attack duty, make them the main goal threat. But you'd need a pretty reserved midfield, not sure I'm educated enough in FM to pull it off  would probably do double carr and a dlp d in dm slot?

This is for the 4-3-3 version, not even going to attempt to mess with the 3-4-3  

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

I like the BPD and the Libero role to be honest, I had a 5-3-2 with a libero that worked fairly well, but not total football

In relation to F9/ Shadow Striker discussion, one of the reasons I'm trying to accommodate a Shadow Striker into my systems is I really like there movement and aggressiveness on the ball, plus they drop back and help alot more in the defensive side of the game. I found a F9 was a little bit of a passenger as in most of the play seemed to pass him by, which would be ok if he was creating space for others etc, but I didnt really see that either.

 

Edit: I've also noticed the 3-4-3 really struggles to break teams down that park the bus. I beat Liverpool 2-1 using it (not sure it was deserved but I'll take it) but up against Bournemouth who played a defensive 5-4-1(i think it was) with 2 dms I really struggled to a 1-0 at home.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

17 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

Get Grealish!

He is a beast for me.

To late! I ended up buying Sancho  

 

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

18 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thanks for all the kind comments, and great thread! 

I wanted to share a couple of newer videos I thought you might find interesting.

 

 

 

 

I recently re-read Brilliant Orange and inspired me to do some more research into the Ajax/Holland Total Football sides of the 1970s and I'd not appreciated that they were actually more attacking than the more recent possession-dominated iterations. Watching back older highlights it's interesting how attacking they were. There's still a focus on possession but less pronounced than, say, recent iterations of Barcelona. They were actually quite direct and sometimes had 7 players attacking the opposition box, particularly if you look at the Uruguay game at the 1974 World Cup.

My latest iteration of the 3-4-3 is:
 

Playing Centre Backs as Stoppers puts them on the same mentality as the wide Carrileros, and putting your Deep Playmaker at MC rather than DMC (lowers defensive line) makes your defence and midfield very compact; the classic "two banks of three"  It's never going to be particularly solid, and it's the very definition of "attack is the best form of defence" but this is the most balanced iteration I have used. Carrileros are extremely important; examples of players used in recent saves are Gedson Fernandes (Braima Alves in the screenshot is a newgen), Alex Grimaldo, Adrien Rabiot, Leandro Paredes, Blaise Matuidi, N'Golo Kante and, actually, Dani Alves is great there.

I also much prefer a player in the AMC spot rather than advancing from MC. The AMC(S) allows you to use the Bakero role (see original Cruyff explanation), playing between opposition defence and midfield, holding the ball up for our midfield and attacking trio.

Glad to see people trying this with FM2020 and keep up the good work! 

And playing attacking mentality  

 

Thats hardcore, but I like it. I actually tried the first tactic with the dlp in the dm slot. Its amazing how different he became from playing in my 4-4-1-1. Maybe its the change in formation, maybe its the instructions, who knows. But he was class in that system whereas in the 4-4-1-1, he was sluggish and seemed reluctant to do ..... well anything!  

 

I may try yours too, but I'd change down to positive I think, so I can use my beloved SS role and hopefully still have some solidarity.

 

This is a truly excellent thread.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

@skyline72 yeah thats a rough injury! Im planing on rotating rashford/martial and james/sancho. Going to try and give greenwood gametime upfront as well as a youngster i bought.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

3 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

Im also managing Utd. 

I went for Sancho. English and younger. 

Thats why I asked  

But nearly double the price  Its a trade off as I think there both very very similar CA and PA wise. I like the idea of more english talent at UTD, but can't beat the italian wonderkids this year

 

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

Niiiice, out of interest who do you use for you're right winger? Im doing a Utd save and considering splashing out on sancho or chiesa? But can't decide, they need to be able to rotate with James ideally from the off

 

[Jadon Sancho]

Im struggling to decide between sancho or chiesa? I need a right winger that can fit into Man utds first team, dont normally go for the really expensive wonderkids but I need them to be able to play/rotate from the start really.

 

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

5 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

No, I did not set any PI for the CBs.

Probably due to my TI - extremely wide.

Ah yeah you're right, I didn't use that for sure

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

5 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

I believe to be able to play the Carrilero perfectly, the player need to be good in Anticipation and Off the ball to predict where the ball is going and it fits the philosophy of Ajax/Total football.

 

This is my average position without ball.

 

My Wingers will drop deep and track the opponent's wide players when defending.

Do you have the outer CB's instructed to stay wider? when I tried a 3 at the back, they were never THAT wide

 

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

13 minutes ago, latrell said:

i find you have to be true and have the wingers high up the pitch not ML and MR for the Carrileros to work, this system the old Van gaal system wont work against the very best teams there wide players will tear you apart, but you can get some great flowing football ive dominated the league but when it comes to Europe not so good PSG with Mbappe and Di Maria gave me a beating ill never forget.   

Yeah I presumed as much, though it does play some amazing football looking at that video

 

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

yeah I havent used 2 in a system but I used 1 alongside a mezz in a 4-1-2-3 seemed to work really well, alot less gung-ho than a box to box. He seems to balance his responsibilities well whilst still contributing.