W-M Discussion Thread. An attempt to recreate the historical formation.

[Manager23]

Will the WM work for barce? i have a question too

Is it possible for the two wingers/ST to have this crossing put to rarely? cutting in will be better for them as i would like the full backs to bomb up and cross into the box,

[mag man]

man i played 28 matches in epl and im in 4th position table!i had this formation from the start of season!whats going bad?i have too much draws!played 28 games:13W 11D 4L.i have always the possesion and sometimes the changes but im scoring little difficult!

There is more to the game than just tactics. Using the media interaction and player interaction can swing a result in your favour.

[mag man]

Hi Higgins, I started a game with Millwall in league 1 and I found it really hard going, although in my first 4 matches I won 3 and drew one, but I think it is because I always play with my favourite clubs, Arsenal & AC Milan, I have been spoilt and I sometimes find that I am expecting my lower league players to play like them and I have to remind myself that they are lower league players and really they are playing well. If you look at some of the previous posts you will see that mag man has played as Maidstone and GuruStew has used smaller teams and is at present with Gateshead in the Blue Square North. WM is a natural counter attacking formation and works very well with the 'BIG' clubs, but I feel that some of the smaller teams have not got the skills required to pull it off 100%.

My Maidstone team had already won 11 straight league titles before I implemented the W-M.

I have had success with Delémont in the Swiss leagues however am lacking consistency. (I also have a terrible squad)

Very interested to see how it goes for GuruStew though.

[mag man]

Will the WM work for barce? i have a question too

Is it possible for the two wingers/ST to have this crossing put to rarely? cutting in will be better for them as i would like the full backs to bomb up and cross into the box,

Will definitely work for Barca.

Its up to you with FL/R crossing rarely, I have them on cross mixed unless I play Anelka there and I do put it on rarely but the other winger on often.

Let us know how it fairs.

[mag man]

So I am back from training and ready to play some FM soon hopefully.

Glad to see so many posts in this week and ideas developing.

Also massive thanks to R/Gunner who has answered your questions whilst I have been away.

[abojep]

Fantastic thread. Thought provoking stuff.

My one difference of opinion is the actual shape you seem to have adopted. You have called this formation W-M. In most football formations the standard method of description is to describe the formation from back to front. For example 4-4-2 means 4 defenders, 4 midfielders and 2 strikers (5-3-2, 4-5-1, 4-3-3 etc). On this argument, the W-M should be a W and then a M.

I know it is just semantics, but if you stayed true to this I think you would get more balance in defence in attack. I think you are playing more of a M-W than a W-M. Please see the images below and read them from defence to attack:

IMAGES HERE!

That aside, I do think the (in my opinion) true W-M is the actual perfect formation. It is so strong in both attack and defence. I have been having a lot of success by using the instuctions posted by RossoneriGunner. I dislike wingers, so I have been playing with a narrow attack and a wide team instruction; my main problem is that I either win 5-0 or lose 5-0, I can't seem to find a middle ground with a low scoring efficient performance. Any help out there ?

P.S. If I am completley off base with the description of the W-M formation then please let me know.

[mag man]

Image from wikipedia. Its not a modern football formation so probably why it isnt described from back to front.

If you flip the top 5 around you would have a W-W even though it would look like an M-M on the image with that orientation.

[abojep]

I see what you mean, I still prefer the M-W (in ye old description) as it is both very defensive an very attacking.

As an aside, do you think the W-W has a a better shape than the W-M ?

[abojep]

I have just reread my posts and noticed that I am coming across as extremely anti W-M. I would like to make it clear that I am not, I find it an extremely interesting formation and can see the intrigue that it seduces people to become W-M zealots

[RossoneriGunner]

Welcome back mag man, it was a pleasure helping out, thanks. I feel we are all aiming for the same target on this post. I have seen other threads about tactics and they all seem to be contradicting each other or telling each other that they are wrong. I have never played FM using the same tactic for so long. Before I came to WM I used 442, 532, 523, etc, etc and even when FM10 comes out the first job will to be set up WM. The original idea of WM was to force the opposition through the 'FUNNEL' which was the corridor running between the AM's and DMC's and when they got through there they hit the defensive wall of the 3 defenders. Mag man what did you do to make your attack more attacking?

[mag man]

I see what you mean, I still prefer the M-W (in ye old description) as it is both very defensive an very attacking.

As an aside, do you think the W-W has a a better shape than the W-M ?

I think it depends on personnel. I really like the midfield 4 so probably prefer the W-M.

Welcome back mag man, it was a pleasure helping out, thanks. I feel we are all aiming for the same target on this post. I have seen other threads about tactics and they all seem to be contradicting each other or telling each other that they are wrong. I have never played FM using the same tactic for so long. Before I came to WM I used 442, 532, 523, etc, etc and even when FM10 comes out the first job will to be set up WM. The original idea of WM was to force the opposition through the 'FUNNEL' which was the corridor running between the AM's and DMC's and when they got through there they hit the defensive wall of the 3 defenders. Mag man what did you do to make your attack more attacking?

I havent actually played yet. I will be experimenting today and tomorrow but after a week with no play I feel like I forgot what I was going to do.

I think the reason that no one has been telling each other they are wrong etc. is because there is no tactic to download, we are both having success and yet the two tactics are fairly different. Its just a matter of opinion and trying new things which this thread has allowed me to do and also get other peoples ideas which I have implemented into my own system.

[RossoneriGunner]

Don't you just hate teams that play very defensive, with 20 players back in defence, 10 on the goal line and 10 in their 6 yd box. I have tried through the middle, out wide, long ball over the top but nothing seems to work. Anyone got any ideas or have you managed to to overcome it.

[mag man]

Don't you just hate teams that play very defensive, with 20 players back in defence, 10 on the goal line and 10 in their 6 yd box. I have tried through the middle, out wide, long ball over the top but nothing seems to work. Anyone got any ideas or have you managed to to overcome it.

When this happened to me I put the defensive line to deep. Gave the DMC, AMC, and fullbacks forward runs. This is against the much weaker sides though.

[RossoneriGunner]

This was a CL game away to Shakhtar Donetsk. What I did in the end was to push my d-line up to 16-17 on slider and that gave me my FB's and DC as extra attackers, plus I kept catching Shakhtar offside. I eventually won 2-1 but it was a hard fought win, which I think is quite nice and pleasing as we were only evens favourite's. Next game should be easier, away to Hull City...but no games are easy, they still have to be won.

[GuruStew]

It came down to the last game, but Gateshead was able to win the BSN with the W-M AND the FA Trophy (on penalties).

I tweaked my tactics for the run in after teams seemed to adjust a bit for Rosso's tactic from page 2. I essentially pushed my defensive line up more often and used more tight marking. This did two things: 1. It kept their wingers covered better, even in 442s, and 2. It kept my team together a bit and gave us more options for passing. I saw more plays where the ball was knocked around the "magic box" a bit, then knocked square to a DL or DR who then played it into space for the winger to run onto.

I will continue to search for a medium between Rosso's initial tactic and the "Compromise Tactic" posted later on.

Getting some better players might help as well and I am chuffed to have added Dean Windass to my Gateshead squad. Is he a cerebral enough player at 40 to make up for his lack of pace and run a corner of my magic box? Is he better placed at striker to hold things up? Or do I need more pace at central striker?

I will note that after finishing up the season, I noticed that the DC who ended up as my starter and winning "Fans' Player of the Year" has a positioning of 1. Do we think that the W-M makes positioning less important than athleticism for DCs because the DMs are covering. So easy even Titus Bramble could do it?

[mag man]

It came down to the last game, but Gateshead was able to win the BSN with the W-M AND the FA Trophy (on penalties).

I tweaked my tactics for the run in after teams seemed to adjust a bit for Rosso's tactic from page 2. I essentially pushed my defensive line up more often and used more tight marking. This did two things: 1. It kept their wingers covered better, even in 442s, and 2. It kept my team together a bit and gave us more options for passing. I saw more plays where the ball was knocked around the "magic box" a bit, then knocked square to a DL or DR who then played it into space for the winger to run onto.

I will continue to search for a medium between Rosso's initial tactic and the "Compromise Tactic" posted later on.

Getting some better players might help as well and I am chuffed to have added Dean Windass to my Gateshead squad. Is he a cerebral enough player at 40 to make up for his lack of pace and run a corner of my magic box? Is he better placed at striker to hold things up? Or do I need more pace at central striker?

I will note that after finishing up the season, I noticed that the DC who ended up as my starter and winning "Fans' Player of the Year" has a positioning of 1. Do we think that the W-M makes positioning less important than athleticism for DCs because the DMs are covering. So easy even Titus Bramble could do it?

Sweet season. Maybe whack up a couple of screenshots?

I think Windass will do ok, at that low level he should be good enough to score a few goals. Where you play him is going to depend on what you want from your players positions. If you want your striker running in behind his not your man, if you want him to HUB and bring players in then he might be able do that.

Strange about the positioning of 1 being a good player, I think might just be the low level your at.

[RossoneriGunner]

Nice one Stew, well done mate, at least if people say can WM be used by lower league/smaller clubs then I think the answer is YES!.

[RossoneriGunner]

Mag man, I remember you saying that you don't use OI's and now I have also stopped using OI's. I have now realised (DOH...) that while using OI's I found that we were struggling and our form was very erratic, but now I have stopped we are playing better and back to normal.

[mag man]

Good stuff. I dont use OI's because I use individual settings on every player and so I feel that when I use them there are conflicting instructions.

I havent had much time to play recently, but I had a quick spell over the weekend and I feel I am less happy with it than I was before.

[RossoneriGunner]

I havent had much time to play recently, but I had a quick spell over the weekend and I feel I am less happy with it than I was before

Well thats funny you should say that because where I was scoring lots of goals and playing good football, just lately they look like a bunch of schoolkids in the playground. I am even struggling to beat teams like Wigan and Hull and when I do I am lucky to do so and only winning 1-0 and 2-1. God help me when I play Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea.

[fdawsoniv]

Probably not the tactic, though. That seems to be the way of the game.

[mag man]

Probably not the tactic, though. That seems to be the way of the game.

I am brilliant at home just awful away. I did start a new game and havent bought any players in this time so relying on existing squad.

[RossoneriGunner]

Probably not the tactic, though. That seems to be the way of the game.

Am I glad you said that fdawsoniv, because I have played CM/FM right from the start and I can remember in nearly all the editions that there is a certain time in the season when it does not matter what you do, you could play 20 in your team and just 5 in your opponents and you would still get beat, then all of a sudden you start winning with big margins again. I thought it must be my imagination because nobody else ever complained about it, but now I know that someone else has noticed it as well, I feel a bit better about it.

[GuruStew]

I recall form swings being big chatter among the FML beta testers. I often find that swings in form start and end around cup ties.

I found that the "show to foot" and "tackle hard" OI combo has worked relatively well. It seems to put off that player a bit. Even when they get clear cut chances on their better foot, they seem less likely to convert if the OIs are set against them. But I've not found that the closing down and tight marking on one player has worked at all for me. But then, I haven't used it all that often.

[RossoneriGunner]

Well Stew, I was using OI's and getting on very well and they worked great, but when everything I did went wrong they were nowhere near the opposition and did not seem to be closing them down either, so I stopped using it. Now everything has turned around and I even won 1-0 away to Chelsea, I have started to use the OI's again and they are working fine again. I normally use both tight and closing down together and hard tackling and show to weaker foot and so far had great sucess with them.

[GMC1888]

Hi, just read through the thread. I have my Fullbacks and Centreback on Man Marking and Tight. I have also reduced the mentality on my DMC to help protect the Centreback. i have only played 1 game and had a good 2-0 win. The opp only had 4 shots. What was amazing though was my pass completion of 74%.Im playing as Dinamo Bryansk 2nd divison in Russia.

[RossoneriGunner]

Welcome to the thread GMC, I have put my player and team settings on post no.268. I have mine on Zonal and tight. How I have my player settings I find that I have my AMC's and wingers tracking back to defend, also take a look at your players condition at the end of a match and see how high they are.

[RossoneriGunner]

Well it looks like I need not have worried about playing the biggies, not only a 1-0 win at Chelsea, but a 2-0 home win over Tottenham, a 4-2 home win over Liverpool (LC 4th Rnd) and a 3-0 home win over Man Utd. I so wanted to taunt Alex Ferguson after that win, but I know it can upset your players, so I didn't bother.

[GMC1888]

Does anybody find that one side of the team performs better than the other?

[RossoneriGunner]

I have not noticed that. How have you got your focus passing set up?, I have been playing say wide in the first half and then through the middle in the second.

[GMC1888]

Mixed passing normal width. Could it be down to preferred foot?

[RossoneriGunner]

Another thing about WM also, is that it is a natural counter attacking tactic, I set my Gk to defender collects and then distribute to my RB, Sagna. They say that attacking moves start from the defence and I find that if my keeper launches the long ball I will usually lose possession, but buy starting from the back I can almost guarantee that I will keep possession.

[RossoneriGunner]

I play narrow and not wide. Try it.

[GMC1888]

Yeah already have the Gk distrbute to dfence. Defensivly im alright and it looks good. Attacking just doesn't look right. The 5 fornt don't seem to link up well. I'll have to read through the thread again and try and pick up some more tips.

[RossoneriGunner]

GMC, go to Post 268 and look at my player settings and set up your forwards and try a few matches and see how you get on, then you can tweak it from there.

[mag man]

I like my front 5 to all have a similar mentality so they are close together, they also have high creative freedom and they just go out and play. The DMC's are crucial for starting the moves though, if you have these to defensive then you will be removing what I think is the start of all attacks.

[crouchaldinho]

This thread makes for some good reading.

I've just finished Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid so I'm enjoying seeing you guys try this out in FM.

Just wondering, which players are providing most assists in the team for you guys playing the WM? The AMs I would guess?

C.

[mag man]

This thread makes for some good reading.

I've just finished Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid so I'm enjoying seeing you guys try this out in FM.

Just wondering, which players are providing most assists in the team for you guys playing the WM? The AMs I would guess?

C.

Yeha the AM gets a lot of assists. I also had the FR get a lot because I play a J.Cole there and he has Drogba and Anelka (at FL) to aim for.

[GuruStew]

Here is a question that was suddenly interesting to me as of last night:

What shape do you shift to if you have someone (say Dean Windass) sent off early (for say... a rash two-footed challenge). Totally hypothetical of course...

I tried to maintain a midfield box, but found I was giving up too many chances at the defensive end. In the end I staggered my AMs and Forwards so that I had a FL, Center Forward, AMC and AMR. That seemed to work well enough and I still ended up dominating posession and shots. Its just, I hit the bar on my shots and their shots went in. A loss, by a wide margin, but not a bad one in my mind. And a little bit of discovery with it.

So what do you/would you do if you have someone sent off early?

[idafc]

I've attempted to foster an effective WM tactic since the latter editions of CM3, so this has been quite a read. As several other users have noted in this thread, the most important component is the relationship between your defensive line, mentality settings and closing down settings. I don't really adhere to the various mentality frameworks that have been developed, but I try to keep my entire squad within a range of 3 or 4 clicks, and I try to match closing down and d-line, when I can. The results, in 9.3 especially, have been really incredible.

I would say, however, that a deep line when the opposition employs a 442 or a 4141 without advanced wingers is effective regardless of mentality, as is a high line to choke the attacking midfield space when the opposition uses a 4231 or a 433 with advanced wingers. A pacy rearguard ensures some wiggle room with regard to the defensive line, but I think generally, the consideration should be to the space you cede to the opposition. If you want to disallow the advantage of having link-up players in the attacking midfield positions, employ a high line. If you want to disconnect an advanced forward or two from the support of a withdrawn midfield, drop the defensive line deeper.

I'm curious, though, as to how everyone sets up their passing. This is the one setting that causes me trouble. I generally keep the defenders short, and gradually increase as I move up the pitch. I always retain possession, but individual players will often have terrible completion rates, and the wingers can occasionally go entire halves without touching the ball. It's all very inconsistent, and the one prong of the tactic that I struggle with.

[GMC1888]

Hi all, Took your advice Rosso and reworked the front 5. Also reworked the DMC like Magman said. Still feel at lower league level that the back 3 need to be on man-marking.

Has anyone tried to employ offside?

[GuruStew]

GMC, I do not employ the offside trap "per say," but as noted in an earlier post, when pushing the d-line up (which I do often), I catch the opposition offside a good deal.

I play lower league and do not man-mark. I find that man-marking pulls my DL and DR inside too much and my DC out of position far too often. I happen to have an athletic backline for the level so that helps to make up for some of the space I cede behind my line when I push them up.

Now, if you can successfully get your wingers and AMCs to track back and cover the space when your DR and DL get sucked in, then by all means, man mark. Otherwise, you'll just be facing a barage of crosses all day long.

That said, I might try a high D-line with offside trap should I face a tougher squad in a cup match. Just to mix it up a bit...

~Stew

[RossoneriGunner]

Hi Guys, back again and catching up on thread...had a major broadband failure (not me the supplier) and been without it for 2 days, so I have not been ignoring you all just could not get here.

[RossoneriGunner]

Right, err where do I start. I have also just finished reading the same book as well and found it an interesting read. Most of my assists have come from my wingers, RV Persie covering L or R for Balotelli/Vela (L), Walcott ® they have 9, with AMC's Diego 8, Arshavin 5, Nasri 5 and Adebayor up front with 6.

When I get a player sent off I go to a 4-4-1 and play safe. Luckily I have only had 2 players sent off and each time I was well in front so I wasn't chasing the game. My Gk was sent off for handling the ball outside the area, he actualy collected the ball around the penalty spot and slid on the wet pitch out of the area and was penalised.

As for my passing set up, my Gk is on 2 and defender collects. DR/L & DC on 4 (Short), DMC's 11 (Mixed), AMC's on 11 (Mixed) as well and my Wingers and ST on 15 (Direct)

[Wonderkid_27]

Any chance someone could upload the WM tactic - I know it’s a discussion thread but if you’re having success why not share it with people who are struggling. I myself really like to try this out.

[knap]

I can post WM tactic later tonight.

[RossoneriGunner]

I posted a link to WM tactic, but I withdrew it to respect the wishes of mag man. You have all my settings on Post 268 so why dont you set up your players to those specs. Also downloading the tactic does not guarantee it will work with your team, as you can see on here we all have different setting for the teams and players that we use.

[mackemforever]

Ok.

I am using the team and player instructions posted by RossoneriGunner on page 3 and it is doing fine going forwards but I am really struggling to keep the number of shots against me down and am frequently drawing 1-1, 2-2 or losing 3-2.

I have tried playing around with tight marking and zonal/man and can't get it to work.

Can anybody give me some help please.

[RossoneriGunner]

Hi Mackem, what team are you at the moment?

[mackemforever]

Hi Mackem, what team are you at the moment?

Playing as Sunderland in the second season.

Have pretty much bought a whole new squad having sold almost every single player at the end of the first season so my team are not gelling brilliantly but the defenders were all playing together from christmas in the first season so should be good together by now.

I have a team that should be pushing for a top 8 finish.