mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 After a discussion with Cleon and a few others in a favourite formation thread where the W-M was discussed I decided to attempt to recreate it in Football Manager 2009. I will probably not be posting a tactic (at least whilst I am still working on it) but would like to create a discussion about the W-M. W-M History - Read here or from Wikipedia The WM system was created in the mid-1920s by Herbert Chapman of Arsenal to counter a change in the offside law in 1925. The change had reduced the number of opposition players that attackers needed between themselves and the goal-line from three to two. This led to the introduction of a centre-back to stop the opposing centre-forward, and tried to balance defensive and offensive playing. The formation became so successful that by the late-1930s most English clubs had adopted the WM. Retrospectively the WM has either been described as a 3-2-5 or as a 3-4-3. The Shape The Settings Team Instructions - Fast Tempo with Short Passing. Individual Instructions - I have split the team into two banks of 5. Here is an overview of player settings: GK Mentality - Defensive Closing Down - Own Area Creative Freedom - Little DR/L Mentality - Defensive Closing Down - Whole Pitch Creative Freedom - Little DC Mentality - Defensive Closing Down - Own Area Creative Freedom - Little DMC's Mentality - Defensive Closing Down - Whole Pitch Creative Freedom - Little AMC's Mentality - Attacking Closing Down - Own Half Creative Freedom - Much FR/L Mentality - Attacking Closing Down - Whole Pitch Creative Freedom - Much ST Mentality - Attacking Closing Down - Own Half Creative Freedom - Much Findings so far I have started a game with Chelsea because I support them and they have a fairy decent squad for this way of playing. GK - Cech - Just using him as a keeper, I will attempt to use him more as a sweeper as I get happier with tactic. DR/L - Bosingwa/Cole - I am using these in more defensive roles than I would normally, this is until I am happy with the defence then I will get them to attack more. They still get up a fair bit and are set to cross from deep. DC - Terry - Lack of pace isnt an issue so far, the midfield dominate so the biggest threat is either down the flanks or aerially where Terry dominates. DMC - Essien/Mikel/Ballack - Solid players defensively but also good passers. This is where a lot of my moves start. AMC - Lampard/Deco/Ballack - Creative players, good at passing and able to score goals. Lampard scores a lot from here. FR/L - Cole/Kalou/Malouda/Anelka - Players with pace who can whip a cross in or score goals. ST - Drogba/Anelka/Di Santo - Goal Scorers, there job is just to get onto through balls and crosses. Not scoring as many as I want yet. In Defence: I have found this to be fairly solid and not concede to many goals, at the moment I have my fullbacks and DMC's a lot more defensive than I want but I am constantly tweaking until I find a balance I am happy with. In Attack: Simply amazing, the front 5 are purely attacking players. I havent got them defending at all but I may look into getting the AMC's to drop a bit deeper as they never track the midfield back. Results: Friendly 1: Complete domination of possession could easily have been more than 3-0. Friendly 2: Complete domiantion of possession and good goal return. Friendly 3: Same again. Friendly 4: I was playing around with defensive line, pushed up to much and got thumped. Friendly 5: I never put defensive line back early enough so conceded but should have won anyway. Friendly 6: Business as usual with a good win. League Game vs Stoke: Completely dominated possession and had a lot of shots. A lot of Stokes shot come from distance and they knicked a goal but I won 3-1. Conclusion: - As you can see the formation completely dominates possession and gets a lot of chances but the opposition also get a lot of chances against me, most of these are from fairly long range. - There is a gap in-between the defensive and attacking units where the opposition do have a bit of space and so can fire off a few shots. Work to be done - At the moment there is a big gap between the defensive and attacking units. I have tried to counter this by increasing the closing down of the fullbacks and DMC's but if I could get the AMC's to track back a bit would probably help reduce the long shots opposition get. - At the moment fullbacks and DMC's dont get forward very often, I'm not sure if they should do or stay back. - I would like to get my ST to score more, at the moment the AMC's dominate the goal scoring. - It was a counter-attacking tactic, at the moment I think mine does with Counter Attack being ticked but should it be? - Experiment with giving the AMC's free role and using a playmaker. Also look at getting them to track back. Before anyone says it I know I am playing with Chelsea, they have a good squad and anyone can win but that is not the aim of this thread. I want to recreate a historical formation and then aim to adapt it to lower quality teams. I have also played a bit with this using my career game where I am Maidstone and it works for them to. Let the discussion begin I hope other people try to recreate this and have success with it and then post their findings in here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I <3 the W-M as you know. The attacking play is pprobably the best you'll ever get on FM if you get the settings right, which seems to be the case in your games. Do you see lots of triangular play? Despite who it looks on paper, it actually retains the ball very well. I tend to have my AMC's with backwar arrows though, so they don't make forward runs as I find them alot more effective staying in the AMC spot, rather than move to SC position. Although saying that, with forward runs often you create space and can force the opposition to make difficult decisions. Do they allow you to out number them, or do they adopt a more defensive approach. So anything that forces the opposition into changing is always a good thing imo. As for the space between defensive and midfield, I don't actually have this problem because my defence are all on high normal and the DMC's can be given attacking mentality if you like. It shouldn't change that much only bring the units a lot closer. You'll find this is a counter attacking tactic even without selecting it, thats because you've found the right settings. I achieve this quite a lot and it works brilliantly for me. If you're experiencing counter attacking footie without having it selected I must say well done, as that is hard to achieve If you want a playmaker use the DMC rather than a AMC. As you'll dictate the game lower down the field so a DMC will influence the game a lot more than a AMC. I've limited time atm, or Id posta lot more, sorry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ljuba82 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 You could try with tight marking for AMC, for more defensive cover and tracking back, but rememeber that than your AMC's will have less space for creating play in attack. Maybe answer is to have only one AMS with tight marking and wothout forward runs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossoneriGunner Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I like the sound of this formation. I am starting a new game with Arsenal so I may give it a go. When you try a new formation/tactic how long do you find it takes for the team and players get used to it, ie. 5-10-15 matches? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 With Arsenal takes about 10 games max, as I've used them before But then again I didn't bring anyone new in, so if you do then it could be slightly longer depending. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Do you see lots of triangular play? Yeha I think this is what I like best, the passing between the midfield square and then diagonally back to the fullbacks or forward to the wingers is the best I have seen. it actually retains the ball very well Indeed it does, its the first formation I have used which can easily have 70% possession. I do have a great midfield 4 who are all comfortable on the ball. I tend to have my AMC's with backwar arrows though, so they don't make forward runs as I find them alot more effective staying in the AMC spot, rather than move to SC position. I just tried this and have to say I like it, they play a lot deeper and allow the ST a bit more space. I might go with one back and one forward though because Lampard is scoring a lot. Do they allow you to out number them, or do they adopt a more defensive approach. So anything that forces the opposition into changing is always a good thing imo. I havent really noticed if they changed to much, if my winger beats the fullback I quite often have 4 on 3 in the box though. As for the space between defensive and midfield, I don't actually have this problem because my defence are all on high normal and the DMC's can be given attacking mentality if you like. It shouldn't change that much only bring the units a lot closer. I have closed the gap up a bit now, my defensive unit are all on normal 4 clicks behind the attacking unit. You'll find this is a counter attacking tactic even without selecting it, thats because you've found the right settings. I achieve this quite a lot and it works brilliantly for me. If you're experiencing counter attacking footie without having it selected I must say well done, as that is hard to achieve Thank you I think its because my back 5 dont go forward much and so sit waiting for an attack, and then my front 5 dont come back so I can break quickly. If you want a playmaker use the DMC rather than a AMC. As you'll dictate the game lower down the field so a DMC will influence the game a lot more than a AMC. That is what I have done in Maidstone game but with Chelsea the better playmakers are AMC's, I might try Mikel out as playmaker. I've limited time atm, or Id posta lot more, sorry Its a start hopefully this can develop and not just die. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 You could try with tight marking for AMC, for more defensive cover and tracking back, but rememeber that than your AMC's will have less space for creating play in attack. Maybe answer is to have only one AMS with tight marking and wothout forward runs. I dont really want any of my players tight marking, at the moment I am playing with back-arrowed AMC's and its pretty decent. The only threat from the AMC's not tracking back is long shots which I dont really want to compromise their attacking play for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 I like the sound of this formation. I am starting a new game with Arsenal so I may give it a go. When you try a new formation/tactic how long do you find it takes for the team and players get used to it, ie. 5-10-15 matches? I found as long as morale was high the team played well, but I am nearly 10 games in now and they play is getting better and better. I have only signed a few youngsters so squad is essentially the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Morale wasn't very good going in to this game. I played about with defensive line again and conceded a goal, I really should leave it alone 1st game with back-arrows on my AMC and wow Deco was unbelievable. I had a few clear cut chances against me which Cech saved but morale still isnt great in the squad and I had my fullbacks with forward runs often. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrEdwierd Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Looks like an awesome tactic but definately one for the big guns. You think any smaller teams could manage it? Seems unlikely to me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Looks like an awesome tactic but definately one for the big guns. You think any smaller teams could manage it? Seems unlikely to me I have only had success with big teams. I have tried it with a poor Swiss side and it did OK, dominated possession but I dont have decent front men so would lose 1-0 a lot, but I see no reason why it wouldnt work if I got good strikers in. Maybe Cleon has tried it with a smaller team? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I've used it with Bolton, Pompey, Darlington, Sheffield F.C, Vasco and Malmo and won leagues and cups with all of those teams using this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Sheffield F.C? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Sheffield F.C? Yes there my local side, so I added them to Conference Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Yes there my local side, so I added them to Conference Never heard of them I like playing with my local side in the game to. Blackburn played 451 so I allowed my DMC's to run forward more. PSV got a lot of chances in behind, I think I might drop defenders mentality back and rather have shots from distance against me. I tried DMC with tight man marking they help out the DC more like this. Arsenal away in the league with Cech injured, I dropped defenders mentality back and again there were gaps. Arsenal Carling Cup game. Only change was to play through the middle, it won but I am not sure if I want to play like that. Liverpool. I wanted to try the attacking version again without the gap because I didnt want Gerrard getting space from distance. I will keep on with this but need to work more on closing down and defensive line at this higher mentality. - I now have the defensive unit on high normal mentality and the attacking unit on high attacking mentality. - I am unsure as to whether play a high defensive line or a normal one? - Have no idea how to set up defensive closing down at the moment. Is it OK to have low closing now with a high mentality? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouchaldinho Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Never heard of them Sheffield FC - the world's oldest club. Learn your history. Here you go- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_fc Anyway, interesting thread this mag man. Next thing, you'll be bringing back the Pyramid (2-3-5)! Couple of things worth checking out. First of all, the TT&F downloads cover a whole bunch of historically important formations and so you might like to have a look to see how WWFan et al. have set there WM up. Secondly, for anyone interested in the history of formations such as this, I recommend Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid. Really good read. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time for experimenting tactically at the moment (I barely have enough time to play full stop!) but I will be reading this thread with interest. C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 I already had googled them Only a couple promotions off being in the game properly. I saw the TT&F classic tactics a whilst back because was quite keen on the Swiss Bolt, I think the Pyramid (2-3-5) is a bit beyond my FM skills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 The Pyramid is what I'm doing, hence my post yesterday about 2 at the back Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Does it work? I can imagine being destroyed down the flanks. I would probably specific man mark with the wingers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD nawrat Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I have played an M-W a few times, to good success. I don't like the W-M as much... But still, both are good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossoneriGunner Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Just great started a new game today with Arsenal and going to try WM formation...and now...I've got to set up my training and staff and start all over again cos' of the new patch (9.3) which steam has downloaded...LOL. Oh well here goes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouchaldinho Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Just great started a new game today with Arsenal and going to try WM formation...and now...I've got to set up my training and staff and start all over again cos' of the new patch (9.3) which steam has downloaded...LOL. Oh well here goes Why start all over again? Just install the patch and continue with your game! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 I have played an M-W a few times, to good success.I don't like the W-M as much... But still, both are good. M-W I used to do that without realising when playing a 442 diamond and pushing my wide men up to attack more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Just great started a new game today with Arsenal and going to try WM formation...and now...I've got to set up my training and staff and start all over again cos' of the new patch (9.3) which steam has downloaded...LOL. Oh well here goes Will you be providing updates? Would be good see how someone else approaches it. I would just carry on with the saved game Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_Susie Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 One key feature I had to use when re-creating Brazil's 1958/1970 style of football was to incorporate the striker with a backwards arrow and having the AMC swap with the AML. So in your case having the two AMC's swapping positions with either each other or the two 'wingers' may allow for them to find more space. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 One key feature I had to use when re-creating Brazil's 1958/1970 style of football was to incorporate the striker with a backwards arrow and having the AMC swap with the AML. So in your case having the two AMC's swapping positions with either each other or the two 'wingers' may allow for them to find more space. I did consider getting the wingers to swap would be good to get them cutting in and shooting. With my Maidstone save I have two AMC/FC and I play one at AMC and the other at ST and get them to swap with the other AMC being a bit deeper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
salkster2102 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 by the way sheffield fc aren't the oldest club in the world. edinburgh fc are. from a very happy stocksbridge fan cleon may give this a try later Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouchaldinho Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 by the way sheffield fc aren't the oldest club in the world. edinburgh fc are. Sheffield FC are recognised by both the FA and FIFA as the world's oldest club. Edinburgh FC only lasted for a couple of decades and can barely be called a football club, certainly not in modern terms, considering that they used their hands to play the game! C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Cleon, do you play wide/narrow? Its the only setting I havent really decided on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Aye Sheffield FC oldest club in the world, FIFA did a big presentation thing for them last year when they played Inter Milan at Bramall Lane. I'll see if I get time, then Ill put my version of the W-M up maybe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Cleon, do you play wide/narrow? Its the only setting I havent really decided on. Gotta be narrow or you'll get hammered sooner or later. This tactic has no width whatsoever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Gotta be narrow or you'll get hammered sooner or later. This tactic has no width whatsoever. Cheers, I am just trying it with my not so good Delémont side at the moment. Scores plenty but defence is a mess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Aye Sheffield FC oldest club in the world, FIFA did a big presentation thing for them last year when they played Inter Milan at Bramall Lane.I'll see if I get time, then Ill put my version of the W-M up maybe. That would be pretty sweet I am getting happier with mine, just got to work on closing down and defensive line. I've tried it on my 3 saves and seems to have positive results with all 3 teams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
salkster2102 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Sheffield FC are recognised by both the FA and FIFA as the world's oldest club.Edinburgh FC only lasted for a couple of decades and can barely be called a football club, certainly not in modern terms, considering that they used their hands to play the game! C. Yes they are officially known as the oldest club in the world by FIFA but their are records in the Scottish museum of Edinburgh FC being formed before Sheffield FC and are still around i think but in sunday league level. But I think they are talking about going professional again. We stocksbridge fans love to correct the sheffield lot . Going to give this a try once i have downloaded the new patch. What have people done regarding defensive line and time wasting? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Im still playing around with defensive line. I just leave time wasting in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossoneriGunner Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 With the new patch installed (9.3) I have noticed a difference in the match engine already with my Arsenal side. Started a new game and my first three games were D 1-1, W 2-0 and W 1-0 and like mag man I left the time wasting in the middle for now. I forgot to move the defensive line and it was 2-3 clicks over the middle and I noticed that they were chucking balls behind my defenders so I brought it back to 4 clicks and I kept it there for the rest of the match. My Gk is passing to DM, my DR/L and DM's are on short passing and tight marking, my AM's are mixed passing and my ST's are on direct passing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STFC will rule again Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I'm working on a similiar type tactic modelled on the Ossie Ardiles five man attack crazyiness from when he managed Spurs which is 2-3-5 effectively. Not sure how solid defensively it will be though . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgins Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Im still playing around with defensive line. I just leave time wasting in the middle. An interesting attempt mag-man , just discovered this thread and I'm going to follow it. Did you use the same settings home and away? I believe that moving the d-line according to your opponent could be vital for an offensive tactic like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossoneriGunner Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I agree with higgins, checking on your opponents formation/tactic is vital for where to place the d-line. I played a team playing 4-2-3-1, as an experiment I played the first half with a normal d-line and found myself with their 3 AM/wingers getting through quite easily. So the 2nd half I tightly marked the FC and pushed up my d-line so their 3 AM/winger's could not get through as they had no space to work and their FC got no service at all and had one shot on goal in the 2nd half and I went on to win easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgins Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I agree with higgins, checking on your opponents formation/tactic is vital for where to place the d-line. I played a team playing 4-2-3-1, as an experiment I played the first half with a normal d-line and found myself with their 3 AM/wingers getting through quite easily. So the 2nd half I tightly marked the FC and pushed up my d-line so their 3 AM/winger's could not get through as they had no space to work and their FC got no service at all and had one shot on goal in the 2nd half and I went on to win easily. True, a pushed up d-line is a very effective move to limit players like Amc, Amr and Aml. At least with patch 9.2.0 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonGuy Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 It's maybe a stupid question, but is there a downloadlink for this tactic? I can't seem to get it right... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossoneriGunner Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 DonGuy have you read TT&F '09, I downloaded and printed out this document and I cant put it down. Before I read this I used to use other people's formations/tactics, now I make my own and set the players to their strengths and not what the tactic says they must do. It is an invaluable document and i would recommend it to everyone who comes on these Forums, in fact I would not let them become a member until they have read it...LOL, we probably would'nt have any members but a lot of happy managers...LOL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonGuy Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 RossoneriGunner, thnx for the info! I'll read TT&F '09 first... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossoneriGunner Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 No probs mate, your welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 I'm working on a similiar type tactic modelled on the Ossie Ardiles five man attack crazyiness from when he managed Spurs which is 2-3-5 effectively. Not sure how solid defensively it will be though . Good luck with that. An interesting attempt mag-man , just discovered this thread and I'm going to follow it.Did you use the same settings home and away? I believe that moving the d-line according to your opponent could be vital for an offensive tactic like this. I do use the same settings, at the moment I am just experimenting with it and am not yet happy with what I have, I have tried a pushed up d-line and get slaughtered at the back, I do have John Terry who isnt the quickest though. True, a pushed up d-line is a very effective move to limit players like Amc, Amr and Aml.At least with patch 9.2.0 Very true but JT's pace makes it a liability. It's maybe a stupid question, but is there a downloadlink for this tactic?I can't seem to get it right... I havent got it right yet either, I have been fairly succesful though and hope to make it even better soon. I havent posted the tactic and just wanted to create a discussion, I will probably have another write up of where I am at next weekend when I have more time. DonGuy have you read TT&F '09, I downloaded and printed out this document and I cant put it down. Before I read this I used to use other people's formations/tactics, now I make my own and set the players to their strengths and not what the tactic says they must do. It is an invaluable document and i would recommend it to everyone who comes on these Forums, in fact I would not let them become a member until they have read it...LOL, we probably would'nt have any members but a lot of happy managers...LOL. I have used the 5x5 mentality from that guide but everything else I have used from my own observations of the game. I might break away from the 5x5 mentality to soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossoneriGunner Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Yes I started off using the suggested mentality but have tweaked it a bit by closing up the midfield by lowering my AM's and increasing my DM's mentality, so I get a nice balance in midfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Yes I started off using the suggested mentality but have tweaked it a bit by closing up the midfield by lowering my AM's and increasing my DM's mentality, so I get a nice balance in midfield. I have played a couple games like that, it creates a nice midfield square. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubsa Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Slightly off topic, but wanted to share: My brother plays for Sheffield FC, missed the Inter game as he was on honeymoon. Women and football. They don't mix, do they? Slightly more on topic: Just wanted to throw my support towards a great concept. Keep up the good work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouchaldinho Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Slightly off topic, but wanted to share: My brother plays for Sheffield FC, missed the Inter game as he was on honeymoon. Seriously, that must be true love, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubsa Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Seriously, that must be true love, right? Didn't feel like it this Xmas, let's put it that way! XD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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