SIMPLICITY - How to make a SOLID & SIMPLE 4-4-2 set

[Justyn_C_UK]

Crouchaldinho - Thank you for this guide it makes the game so much more enjoyable. I've been playing this game since FM93 and that was probably the last time I managed to design my own tactics (a stunning 4-3-3 that took Notts County from the foot of Div 2 to the Premiership in successive seasons with Marcus Stewart averaging 40gls a season).

I really like the fact you aren't offering the tactic a download but helping educate thousands of managers. Plus, they work really well against narrow teams (4-1-2-1-2 or 4-2-2-2) such as Chelsea and L'pool, when was the last time Ipswich beat both of them in a season with a young but improving team.

Ta again.

[Finknottle]

Hello "C". I would value your opinions on the following formations.

Defensive. RB CD CD LB. DMC. FCa MCa. AMR/WGR AML/WGR ST.

Standard. RB CD CD LB. FCa MCd MCa. AMR/WGR AML/WGR ST.

Attacking. RB CD CD LB. FCa MCd. AMR/WGR AMC AML/WGR ST.

I hope that the above makes sense. All I have really done is to move the DMC up through the formation as the formation goes from defence to attack. The system is 5 x 5. The individual player instructions are strictly TT&F, although I have made the following alterations, eg; A full back whose tackling attribute is only 10. I have put him on easy for tackling. I have also made alterations to the other players accordingly, whose attributes fall below the minimum for the Premier League.

My defence passing is on individual and my attack passing on team. I have tried to use the TT&F for the opposition instructions, though whether they are advantageous or not I am not sure. The formations are set as 4-5-1 throughout. I don't think that I have omitted anything. Kind regards.

[mista T]

AFC Wimbledon 1-0 Havant & Waterlooville

Not a good game as they injured 2 of my players (a striker and a winger- both important) and I kept on balanced through the whole thing. Late corner gave us the lead, and we won to go top.

[crouchaldinho]

Hello "C". I would value your opinions on the following formations.

Defensive. RB CD CD LB. DMC. FCa MCa. AMR/WGR AML/WGR ST.

Standard. RB CD CD LB. FCa MCd MCa. AMR/WGR AML/WGR ST.

Attacking. RB CD CD LB. FCa MCd. AMR/WGR AMC AML/WGR ST.

I hope that the above makes sense. All I have really done is to move the DMC up through the formation as the formation goes from defence to attack. The system is 5 x 5. The individual player instructions are strictly TT&F, although I have made the following alterations, eg; A full back whose tackling attribute is only 10. I have put him on easy for tackling. I have also made alterations to the other players accordingly, whose attributes fall below the minimum for the Premier League.

My defence passing is on individual and my attack passing on team. I have tried to use the TT&F for the opposition instructions, though whether they are advantageous or not I am not sure. The formations are set as 4-5-1 throughout. I don't think that I have omitted anything. Kind regards.

Sounds good to me.

Best of luck and let me know how you get on!

C.

[mista T]

Crouch, I have a couple of questions:

what tactic should I use against weak, attacking teams?

what tactic should I use against strong, defensive teams? thanks

[InzieBear]

Hi Crouchaldinho,

Thanks for all your thoughts on various tactics and how to build them, very interesting and a valuable addition in trying to understand fully about what makes a successful tactic in FM.

Can i ask a question in respect of when you go for an all out attack when in need of a goal late in games?

Basically if all of your players are ticked and assigned their own individual mentality (whether just on defensive for the defenders and normal for some midfielders and slightly attacking for the strikers but essentially all at possibly different levels), and if you change only the team mentality during the game play, does this have any effect at all?.....i.e if i change the team mentality in the last ten minutes from defensive or normal to ultra attacking (as i need a goal) will this make my team attacking, even if the individual players are all ticked and have various mentailties?

Thanks in anticipation of your help or anyone elses.

[mista T]

It is my understanding that individual player instructions override team instructions, but I may be wrong

[crouchaldinho]

Hey InzieBear - mista T is right, individual player instructions override team instructions. However, my understanding is that the 'ultra-attacking' setting actually does override your individual settings.

There are 22 notches on the team mentality bar but only 20 on the individual one. I think Cleon confirmed that the extra two notches (ultra-defensive and ultra-attacking) do override the individual mentality instructions. I haven't actually tested this myself though.

Hope that helps.

C.

[mista T]

Crouch, you forgots about me Crouch, I have a couple of questions:

what tactic should I use against weak, attacking teams?

what tactic should I use against strong, defensive teams? thanks

[mista T]

Eastleigh 2-0 AFC Wimbledon

I'm shocked. I just don't know what went wrong here. Tried to play balanced formation, but didn't work.

[InzieBear]

It is my understanding that individual player instructions override team instructions, but I may be wrong

Thanks for that Mista T, that is what i would have thought to be honest and the way i understand things.

Its just when i read near the end of post #1 on this thread and C's thoughts on dealing with defending the 4-2-4 AI attack or dealing with 'need a goal' situation, on both situations he says to use ultra defensive on the team setting mentality to deal with the 4-2-4 AI attack and then use ultra attacking on the team mentality to try and get a goal....and this is contrary to the individual mentality settings he states on the rest of the tactics.

I wonder if i want to deal with the AI 4-2-4 attack, do i untick ALL individual player mentalities and just play them under team and make that ultra defensive?

Does that make sense?

[crouchaldinho]

Crouch, I have a couple of questions:

what tactic should I use against weak, attacking teams?

Depends upon your outlook. I'm a cautious manager and I would therefore play pretty defensively and counter-attack. I would let them come on to me, put plenty of pace in my side and then just rip them apart on the break!

You might decide to play a balanced system to be slightly more adventurous but still cautious.

Or, I suppose, if you think you're totally superior, you could just attack. You might concede a few but then you'll probably score more if the opposition are poor.

Your choice!

what tactic should I use against strong, defensive teams? thanks

In general, I go attacking against any team that are playing defensively to try to break them down. If they're sitting behind the ball, then I'm going to play my game and attempt to dominate. That's my philosophy for that situation.

I haven't really found much success in other approaches. Balanced seems to offer the opposition too much time and space to compose themselves. Good teams will punish you in my experience.

Hope that helps.

C.

[InzieBear]

Hey InzieBear - mista T is right, individual player instructions override team instructions. However, my understanding is that the 'ultra-attacking' setting actually does override your individual settings.

There are 22 notches on the team mentality bar but only 20 on the individual one. I think Cleon confirmed that the extra two notches (ultra-defensive and ultra-attacking) do override the individual mentality instructions. I haven't actually tested this myself though.

Hope that helps.

C.

Hi C,

That is great, that helps explain it perfectly and makes sense doesnt it? So basically if i am playing with my own standard 4-4-2 and then i want to defend a 1-0 lead for the last 10 minutes (or when the AI goes 4-2-4) i can just drag the slider to ultra defensive without changing the players individually, which would be a real pain!! And also i would then raise time wasting and closing down and lower tempo etc.....

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.

[crouchaldinho]

Eastleigh 2-0 AFC Wimbledon

I'm shocked. I just don't know what went wrong here. Tried to play balanced formation, but didn't work.

What was their approach to the game, i.e. what did scout report say?

Did you give a poor team talk? What did your assistant say after the match about team talks?

Did anyone have a particularly bad day? If so, why do you think that is?

Eastleigh are a very good side so this represented a challenge for you. They're up in the playoffs in real life.

The important thing now is to bounce back. Plus, losing a game to one of the top sides in the division away from home is no disgrace.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

Hi C,

That is great, that helps explain it perfectly and makes sense doesnt it? So basically if i am playing with my own standard 4-4-2 and then i want to defend a 1-0 lead for the last 10 minutes (or when the AI goes 4-2-4) i can just drag the slider to ultra defensive without changing the players individually, which would be a real pain!! And also i would then raise time wasting and closing down and lower tempo etc.....

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.

Yes I'm pretty sure that's how it works. I didn't realise this at all until Cleon told me in a thread recently.

Personally, I have my own ultra attacking tactic for the last ten minutes with everything already set up. I can't be bothered with fiddling with sliders during games.

C.

[InzieBear]

Yes I'm pretty sure that's how it works. I didn't realise this at all until Cleon told me in a thread recently.

Personally, I have my own ultra attacking tactic for the last ten minutes with everything already set up. I can't be bothered with fiddling with sliders during games.

C.

Yes i am going to develop my own ultra defensive tactic and one for 'need a goal' to deal with the 2 situations, and then as you say i can just click onto them when i need them, rather than mess around each time and keep stopping the game for ages whilst i change everything!

Great, thanks again for that and all your other stuff on here!

[mista T]

What was their approach to the game, i.e. what did scout report say?

Did you give a poor team talk? What did your assistant say after the match about team talks?

Did anyone have a particularly bad day? If so, why do you think that is?

Eastleigh are a very good side so this represented a challenge for you. They're up in the playoffs in real life.

The important thing now is to bounce back. Plus, losing a game to one of the top sides in the division away from home is no disgrace.

C.

Any number of those things, I let the assistant do the team talk and if it looks right, I leave it and put some individual ones. I think I played the wrong one, I didn't have the defensive set yet (laziness) and tried to play balanced. Then switched to attacking which didn't get me any goals.

[crouchaldinho]

Yes i am going to develop my own ultra defensive tactic and one for 'need a goal' to deal with the 2 situations, and then as you say i can just click onto them when i need them, rather than mess around each time and keep stopping the game for ages whilst i change everything!

Great, thanks again for that and all your other stuff on here!

No probs and good luck building your tactics set!

Any number of those things, I let the assistant do the team talk and if it looks right, I leave it and put some individual ones. I think I played the wrong one, I didn't have the defensive set yet (laziness) and tried to play balanced. Then switched to attacking which didn't get me any goals.

Could it be that you didn't go attacking enough instead mista T. In my experience, when you are one of the clear favourites for your division (like you are) and when you're having such a good run of form, the opposition normally chooses to play defensively. I might be wrong though.

If you played Balanced against a very defensive team, that might have been a contributing factor, especially if you had counter-attack ticked, as you were inviting them on to you and unable to break quickly and make chances.

C.

[mista T]

Hey Crouch, do you think it could be beneficial to have one centre back on tight man and one on loose zonal, just to cover all areas of the pitch and counter any building threats?

[mista T]

Dorchester 1-3 AFC Wimbledon

A good solid win. They played a very defensive 3-5-2, prompting me to attack from the off. This approach got the desired result.

[crouchaldinho]

Hey Crouch, do you think it could be beneficial to have one centre back on tight man and one on loose zonal, just to cover all areas of the pitch and counter any building threats?

Not quite sure I understand why you would want to do that?

Try having a read of the article I've attached below, which I think is a pretty good explanation of man marking and zonal marking. The diagrams are quite useful for getting an idea of how zonal works too.

http://www.talkfootball.co.uk/guides/football_tactics.html

C.

[mista T]

aah, I see how it works now. I thought the defenders' zone was the final third, meaning one defender would chase the ball and one would mark the passing option

[mista T]

Took counter-attack off of the attacking formation as it seemed to contradict the style of play.

[mista T]

Worcester 5-1 AFC Wimbledon

My computer nearly went out of the window in this crazily sh*te result. played the attacking formation, and went 3-0 down in the first half. "no worries" I thought. "Stick with it, put on counter-attacking and watch the equalise" How wrong I was. 2 more goals from the opposition resulted in alot of profanity. Then my team had the cheek to score a late goal after I switched to balance. My scout is getting the sack, stupid arse said they were playing defensive 4-4-2. Last time I checked, defensive teams don't score FIVE goals.

[crouchaldinho]

Worcester 5-1 AFC Wimbledon

My computer nearly went out of the window in this crazily sh*te result. played the attacking formation, and went 3-0 down in the first half. "no worries" I thought. "Stick with it, put on counter-attacking and watch the equalise" How wrong I was. 2 more goals from the opposition resulted in alot of profanity. Then my team had the cheek to score a late goal after I switched to balance. My scout is getting the sack, stupid arse said they were playing defensive 4-4-2. Last time I checked, defensive teams don't score FIVE goals.

I'd put money on a team talk that resulted in 'seemed demotivated' here.

Also, did you check their forwards for pace? Did they perhaps take advantage of a slow centre-back?

It is a strange result considering the success you've been having. That's why I'd either suggest a team talk problem or some particularly poor defending due to a quick striker causing chaos. You need to analyse which it was so you can try to make sure it doesn't happen again!

C.

[crouchaldinho]

Took counter-attack off of the attacking formation as it seemed to contradict the style of play.

Yes, it would do.

[_PeteG_]

Crouchaldinho - first of all, thanks for the guide. Can't say I have read through the whole thread yet but, it's early days for me and I'm finding that my team seems to play much more like a team(!) following some of these basic principles.

A question though - I have found myself in the position of just wanting to play 'a bit more attacking/defensive' during the last ten mins or so of a game. I guess I can't just set the mentaility a couple of notches up or down as there are individual player instructions that will always override this. So, what do you do just to tweak, to be a little bit more attacking or defensive, or is that too vague a way of putting it?

[crouchaldinho]

Crouchaldinho - first of all, thanks for the guide. Can't say I have read through the whole thread yet but, it's early days for me and I'm finding that my team seems to play much more like a team(!) following some of these basic principles.

A question though - I have found myself in the position of just wanting to play 'a bit more attacking/defensive' during the last ten mins or so of a game. I guess I can't just set the mentaility a couple of notches up or down as there are individual player instructions that will always override this. So, what do you do just to tweak, to be a little bit more attacking or defensive, or is that too vague a way of putting it?

What I do is pretty much in the opening post.

For my defensive 'kill the game' tactic, I pretty much use the defensive system but increase time wasting to max, slow down tempo and reduce through-balls. I also drop both MCs down to DMC as well. Put team mentality to the far left, i.e. ultra-defensive.

For my attacking 'try to get a last minute goal' type tactic, I push the wide players up to make a 4-2-4. Again, it is the same as the attacking one with team instruction set to far right, i.e. ultra-attacking. I play with a quick, direct style to try to get a goal.

Hope that helps.

C.

[_PeteG_]

What I do is pretty much in the opening post.

For my defensive 'kill the game' tactic, I pretty much use the defensive system but increase time wasting to max, slow down tempo and reduce through-balls. I also drop both MCs down to DMC as well. Put team mentality to the far left, i.e. ultra-defensive.

For my attacking 'try to get a last minute goal' type tactic, I push the wide players up to make a 4-2-4. Again, it is the same as the attacking one with team instruction set to far right, i.e. ultra-attacking. I play with a quick, direct style to try to get a goal.

Hope that helps.

C.

Yeah, it does, thanks. Although when you say you put the team mentality to the far left...if you are using your defensive system then the mentality is already set for everybody at an indivudal level and therefore overrides the team mentality doesn't it? Sorry, if I'm not quite getting it...do you mean that you would then 'untick' all the individual mentality settings so that the players all followed the ultra-defensive team mentality?

[crouchaldinho]

Yeah, it does, thanks. Although when you say you put the team mentality to the far left...if you are using your defensive system then the mentality is already set for everybody at an indivudal level and therefore overrides the team mentality doesn't it? Sorry, if I'm not quite getting it...do you mean that you would then 'untick' all the individual mentality settings so that the players all followed the ultra-defensive team mentality?

I can't remember exactly how I have my two 'last minute' tactics setup right now and I can't look because I'm posting on my wife's computer.

I know that I have based it on the defensive and attacking systems respectively.

But anyway, we were talking about this earlier on here. Individual player instructions do override team instructions. However, my understanding is that the 'ultra-attacking' or 'ultra-defensive' setting under team mentality actually does override your individual settings.

There are 22 notches on the team mentality bar but only 20 on the individual one. I think it was Cleon who confirmed that the extra two notches (ultra-defensive and ultra-attacking) do override the individual mentality instructions. I haven't actually tested this myself though. Come to think of it, I'm not sure how easy it would be to tell if all of your individual instructions are defensive or attacking respectively, if you understand what I mean!

C.

[ricrpor]

This time no one can say that they don´t know what all of the itens of the tactical scenario means,because with this kind of simple and direct explanation everything is clear now.

Great work Crouchaldinho (great name too)

Although i agree with you aproach and thoughts of the game in its tactical side , after reading this post i became so curious on how this will reflect on the game that i started building the three type of tactics .

I use them in my Spurs game on the begining of the third season, previous one i finished 2nd 3 points behind champions Man City and won the FA Cup

My strategy on chosing the type o tactic , attacking , balanced or defensive was based on match prediction and home or away.

at home always attacking

away if fav attacking

away if no fav balanced

well i must say the results were catastrofic

i didnt dominate home games as usual

i was hamered most of the times away

you might say that i didnt build the tactic correctly but i did it just wont work

i had games of 2 shots for me againt 25 for the opp away, this was never seen by me.

i finished 7th

not convinced. very good teorical aproach but not good on the pratical mode...at least for me

thanks anyway it steals a great post

[WH]

Hey there Crouchie,

First off great thread and thanks for all the effort you are putting in to this thread and helping people out.

I am confused with the set up for the FCa mentality on the attacking tactic. I might just be reading it wrong and if so please forgive me and i will go and sit in the corner. Here are the instructions and i have marked in bold the bits that I'm struggling with.

ATTACKING

Mentality:

Again, I get bored of mentality very quickly. I hate mucking about with sliders. We’re sticking with the idea of 5 or more players on the same mentality as the style you are trying to play (i.e. in this case, attacking). Also, big gaps in mentality are bad and give the opposition space.

Again, my definition of 4-4-2 above talks about 5 defensive players and 5 attacking ones. So I’m going to keep it dead simple here.

First tick all of the tick boxes so that the players are all ready to have their mentalities set. Then put everyone’s slider 5 clicks in from the far right side, i.e. that is five clicks away from the extreme right setting (attacking).

Now, for the defensive unit (i.e. your defenders, fullbacks and one defensive minded midfielder) click twice to the left so that the notch moves down two notches. For the attacking unit (i.e. your attack-minded midfielder, your wide players and your forwards) click two notches in the opposite direction. They are now four notches apart. Defensive unit is ‘normal’ and attacking unit is ‘attacking’.

Now, to set up my forwards. Again, any time you watch Match of the Day when a team are playing with a 4-4-2 you’ll note that the two strikers take up different positions and make different runs in order to break down opposition defences. We are still working with the idea of one deep-lying creative forward who sets up his strike partner and one advanced striker who is the main goalscorer and who normally has pace to get past his last man. We’ll call the FCd and FCa as per TT&F.

So, I want to alter the mentality for these two players slightly. For my FCd, I click two notches down (so that he is on the first notch of ‘attacking’). For my FCa, I click four notches up (so that he is almost at the maximum of the mentality slider).This should achieve the effect that I desire.

Mentality done!

So ive gone back 5 from the extreme right, Then 2 clicks right. Then another 4 clicks right.( 1 click more than there is on the slider) But i should only be almost max on the mentality slider. What have i done wrong.

Thanks again and keep up the good work. Your a top bloke.

[crouchaldinho]

My strategy on chosing the type o tactic , attacking , balanced or defensive was based on match prediction and home or away.

This probably the reason you weren't as successful as you wanted to be.

In the opening post, I recommend you pay attention to how the opposition are approaching the game by using scout reports and by watching what their players are doing on the 2D screen.

Match odds can be very misleading. I've frequently gone into games without being favoured with the opposition playing defensive on the break, for instance.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

Hey there Crouchie,

Hey WH.

First tick all of the tick boxes so that the players are all ready to have their mentalities set. Then put everyone’s slider 5 clicks in from the far right side, i.e. that is five clicks away from the extreme right setting (attacking).

To start with, put all individual sliders for mentality to the very far right. >----------------X<

Next up, move the slider down 5 notches to the left for everyone. >--------------X-----<

Now, for the defensive unit (i.e. your defenders, fullbacks and one defensive minded midfielder) click twice to the left so that the notch moves down two notches.

Next up, you move the defensive unit down two notches to the left. In other words, the defensive unit is now 7 clicks from the right.

>------------X-------<

For the attacking unit (i.e. your attack-minded midfielder, your wide players and your forwards) click two notches in the opposite direction. They are now four notches apart.

The attacking unit is still on 5 clicks from the right, so you now move them to clicks back to the right.

>----------------X---<

So they are now 3 clicks from the right.

The defensive unit and attacking unit are now 4 clicks apart.

Defensive unit is ‘normal’ and attacking unit is ‘attacking’.

For my FCd, I click two notches down (so that he is on the first notch of ‘attacking’). For my FCa, I click four notches up (so that he is almost at the maximum of the mentality slider).This should achieve the effect that I desire.

I see the confusion here and I apologise. :o The FCa should be set four notches up from the FCd. That's actually 2 clicks up from the attacking unit mentality.

I will go back and correct the opening post!

C.

[crouchaldinho]

As I said in the opening post:

P.P.S. I apologise for any inconsistencies or incongruity, plus the inevitable bad grammar and spelling.

OK, I've corrected the opening post and I apologise about the confusion over that.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

not convinced. very good teorical aproach but not good on the pratical mode...at least for me

Just thought I would respond to this in a little more depth.

The opening post is a theoretical post, yes, but as a practical approach to making tactics this does work.

My league record for last season reads like this:

Pos   	Team	 	Pld	 Won	 Drn	 Ls	 For 	Ag 	G.D. 	 Pts   
2nd     St. Albans       42    	 24      13    	 5    	 64    	27    	+37  	 85 

Couldn't catch up with the team above me who had a tycoon and were spending millions on players. They also had Paul Merson as manager. I mean, how am I going to cope with that.

This was achieved using the exact tactic I have described in the opening post, with the odd tweak for individual players.

I'm delighted with the defensive performance. Only 27 goals conceded in 42 games.

The goals for column is less impressive but I sold my best strikers in the summer in order to promote three youth players. I rotated these youngsters throughout the season. Basically, I know I could have had a much better strike force but I have been trying to bring young, local players through in my current game.

In addition to that, I didn't have the squad I wanted. I would have liked more pace in the lineup, especially in the wide positions.

All the players were on part-time contracts and I only used the loan system once to bring in a fullback from a local club. The average age of my team was around 20.

I also made the Setanta Shield semi-final and the FA Cup 3rd round. I played Everton in the third round at Goodison Park but got hammered 4-0.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that this approach clearly works very well.

The problem with this thread is that I can't tell whether people have carried out the instructions correctly. I can't tell whether they have used a bit of common sense with the settings or just copied everything I have done. I can't even tell if they have read the whole post.

Those people that are successful will be too busy playing to come on here and report their success. Those people who are struggling will be the first to tell me that my approach to playing the game is somehow flawed. That is, instead of trying to work out where things are going wrong.

This thread is supposed to give a good theoretical foundation for building your own 4-4-2. If you blindly follow some of the instructions and ignore other parts of it then your tactics set might well not be successful. However, if you try to think about it and try to customise things like the passing, the player instructions etc., and you try to analyse what is happening in the game as I have stated in the opening post, then you will definitely have success.

That's my little rant over.

C.

[WH]

Thanks for clearing that up for me mate.

Just to give you some feedback. Playing as stafford rangers in the BS North. I took over in Jan with them near the bottom and i have to say the team is poor. Results are as follows with my score first.

1-1

1-0

2-0

0-0

4-0

1-0

2-1

0-0

2-1

2-1

0-1

0-1

2-0

2-0

1-2

So thats p15 w9 d3 l3 Including a 10 game unbeaten run and 8 clean sheets. That has moved me from 20th place to 9th with 6 games to go. I have previously been struggling on 9.0.3 after being very successful on 9.0.2 with my other tactics.

So this simple (when you know how) set have put the fun back in fm for me. So thanks again.

[mag man]

I think the problem is that some people are trying to apply this to top teams. It works very well at a lower level because settings are so basic/simple but with better teams players can be given more freedom to play and so individual player tweaks based on common sense are needed, I would even recommend them at lower levels to ensure you get the best out of your players.

[crouchaldinho]

So thats p15 w9 d3 l3 Including a 10 game unbeaten run and 8 clean sheets. That has moved me from 20th place to 9th with 6 games to go. I have previously been struggling on 9.0.3 after being very successful on 9.0.2 with my other tactics.

So this simple (when you know how) set have put the fun back in fm for me. So thanks again.

Cheers for the feedback WH. Congratulations on your success so far.

[crouchaldinho]

I think the problem is that some people are trying to apply this to top teams. It works very well at a lower level because settings are so basic/simple but with better teams players can be given more freedom to play and so individual player tweaks based on common sense are needed, I would even recommend them at lower levels to ensure you get the best out of your players.

Yes mag man, you are quite right. But I thought I made this fairly explicit in the opening post when I said things like 'my team is poor, so I have decided to set passing to direct and mixed' etc. for instance. I hoped that people would think to themselves, 'well I'm managing a top side and they are excellent passers of the ball, so maybe I will change this setting' etc. and so on.

This basic setting does work for top teams though. I took over England as a test game and couldn't stop winning with them. In fact, it all felt a bit boring after a while. I did operate with more free roles in my attacking tactics. I also altered player instructions depending on the player concerned but I do this with every team I manage. I also altered passing style.

In some ways, though, I would argue that it is even easier to be successful with top sides when you keep it simple. If you have top quality players, their abilities can cover any flaws in your tactical selections! Certainly, I found it stupidly easy with England and my tactics weren't far removed from what I have post up on the first page.

One thing about these tactics is that they are currently quite direct. The way the tactics are set up is to play longer passes. This means forward players contesting a fair number of balls in the air. Obviously, this won't suit some teams at all. You need to be able to use some common sense. If you don't have a physical team, you want to make the game more technical, e.g. shortening the passing and maybe playing into a TM to feet etc. Also, my set up on the first page is quite cautious for my balanced system. Counter-attacking, for instance, will backfire if you don't have pace in your side.

You are quite right in what you say mag man. I had hoped that by explaining things in a simple way and giving a foundation, people would be able to build a tactic and customise it for their team.

C.

[ricrpor]

Just thought I would respond to this in a little more depth.

The opening post is a theoretical post, yes, but as a practical approach to making tactics this does work.

My league record for last season reads like this:

Pos   	Team	 	Pld	 Won	 Drn	 Ls	 For 	Ag 	G.D. 	 Pts   
2nd     St. Albans       42    	 24      13    	 5    	 64    	27    	+37  	 85 

Couldn't catch up with the team above me who had a tycoon and were spending millions on players. They also had Paul Merson as manager. I mean, how am I going to cope with that.

This was achieved using the exact tactic I have described in the opening post, with the odd tweak for individual players.

I'm delighted with the defensive performance. Only 27 goals conceded in 42 games.

The goals for column is less impressive but I sold my best strikers in the summer in order to promote three youth players. I rotated these youngsters throughout the season. Basically, I know I could have had a much better strike force but I have been trying to bring young, local players through in my current game.

In addition to that, I didn't have the squad I wanted. I would have liked more pace in the lineup, especially in the wide positions.

All the players were on part-time contracts and I only used the loan system once to bring in a fullback from a local club. The average age of my team was around 20.

I also made the Setanta Shield semi-final and the FA Cup 3rd round. I played Everton in the third round at Goodison Park but got hammered 4-0.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that this approach clearly works very well.

The problem with this thread is that I can't tell whether people have carried out the instructions correctly. I can't tell whether they have used a bit of common sense with the settings or just copied everything I have done. I can't even tell if they have read the whole post.

Those people that are successful will be too busy playing to come on here and report their success. Those people who are struggling will be the first to tell me that my approach to playing the game is somehow flawed. That is, instead of trying to work out where things are going wrong.

This thread is supposed to give a good theoretical foundation for building your own 4-4-2. If you blindly follow some of the instructions and ignore other parts of it then your tactics set might well not be successful. However, if you try to think about it and try to customise things like the passing, the player instructions etc., and you try to analyse what is happening in the game as I have stated in the opening post, then you will definitely have success.

That's my little rant over.

C.

don´t get me wrong , i didn´t in anyway crticised your work quite the oposite. what i said and i ask you to believe me is that i put the exact instructions you gave because i also consider it very correct in theoric. i praised your post but when it came to aplying the tactic to the game i get smashed like never before, that was what suprised me.

i

i did this sequence of games started 2nd on the premiere league

1st away vs 18th i was fav. ended 0-0 i had 52% and 7-2 shots - used attacking

2nd away vs Bayern for CL ended 1-2 i had 42 % and 5-15 shots - used balanced and last 20min attacking

3rd home vs 10th i was fav ended 4-0 i had 51% 12-8 shots - used attacking

4th away vs 4th ended 0-1 i hat 40% and 4-28 shots - used balanced first half, changed to attacking for 30 min and last 15 played defensive because i didn´t know what else to do, i was completely smashed and none of the systems slow down the opposition (maybe my worst game in FM of all time)

5th home vs Monaco i was fav for CL ended 1-0 had 45 % 8-14shots - started attacking last 30min balanced (no diference)

6th home vs 3rd i was fav ended 3-0 had 44% and 6-16 shots - started attacking , halftime 1-0 up but not dominating changed to balanced , game kept the same still not dominating but scored two more.

7th away vs Dinamo Kiev ended 2-2 had 46% and 7-22 shots - started attacking, halftime been hamered and drawing 1-1 changed to balanced , kept being dominated , changed to defensive in last 20 min, scored from corner 2-1 and then conceded the 22 10 min before the ended, and dinamo had some chances for the wineer

So 7 games 3w 2d 2l 11-5 goals my concerns are :

- dominated only two games against minor teams and not by much games 1 and 3

- been completed smashed on two games despite only loosing 1-0 game 4 and drawing 2-2 game 7

- despite 2 wins at home the opposition had more possesion and shots games 5 and 6

- 3wins in 7 matches is a very low record for a team such as mine .

- i conceed a lot of shots and make few

the positive thing i see is a bigger eficency of my shots and less of the oposition, i need much fewer shots to score than i used to and the opp needs much more to score.

So, once again great work but i would apreciate your feedback on my topic, because i said it before and i say it again this is not any kind of critics to your post but it´s not working for me.

Thanks a lot

cheers

[crouchaldinho]

don´t get me wrong , i didn´t in anyway crticised your work quite the oposite. what i said and i ask you to believe me is that i put the exact instructions you gave because i also consider it very correct in theoric. i praised your post but when it came to aplying the tactic to the game i get smashed like never before, that was what suprised me.

I wasn't having a go at you, don't worry.

What I think was happening with you was that you decided to apply the tactics depending upon the odds, whereas I fundamentally believe in applying tactics depending upon a mixture scout reports and what the team is actually doing in the game.

If you're not dominating possession, then the first question is to ask yourself why.

One answer is probably that the passing setup in the first post is too direct for your team. At the top levels, there are players who have awesome ability in the air. If you look at the stats, it is quite possible that you were losing a lot of headers. Recently, someone sent me some match stats to look at because they were struggling with their passing. When I looked at the stats, the first thing I saw was that they lost more than 20 headers in the forward positions! That immediately explains a lot!

Another potential answer to the problem of dominating teams is the balanced tactic, which it looks as though you had some trouble with. The way I have it set up is cautious and counter-attacking. Without pace in the side, counter-attacking is a fairly pointless exercise. I'm getting my counter-attacking working really well at the moment due to having lots of pace on the wings and a really fast forward. I would suggest changing the passing to make it shorter and unticking counter-attack for your balanced tactic. That would be my first idea if you want to dominate games.

I see that you are tweaking a lot during games. In fact, in your worst game you changed tactic three times, which will only make matters worse.

This is just a few suggestions. There may be other things going on here that I am not sure about.

I have got my old test game with England up just to prove that you can play very simply with a top team and still win.

England 2 - 0 Czech Republic

Andorra 0 - 3 England

Croatia 0 - 1 England

England 6 - 0 Kazakhstan

Belarus 0 - 1 England

Germany 1 - 3 England

England 3 - 0 Ukraine

Kazakhstan 1 - 4 England

England 6 - 1 Andorra

I was also experimenting a lot with different formations during this run of results.

C.

[Codename47]

Now to some of your settings:

If you're gonna play with so low C-Down on defenders and MC'd, you would better lower the D-Line one or two notches

Surely if you do this you are leaving yourself open to expoitation of space between your defence and midfield for the opposition attack to take advantage of ?!

i.e. your def and mid arent closing down, and by deepening your DL even further they are sitting back even more for the opposing side to take advantage of.

[ricrpor]

I wasn't having a go at you, don't worry.

What I think was happening with you was that you decided to apply the tactics depending upon the odds, whereas I fundamentally believe in applying tactics depending upon a mixture scout reports and what the team is actually doing in the game.

If you're not dominating possession, then the first question is to ask yourself why.

One answer is probably that the passing setup in the first post is too direct for your team. At the top levels, there are players who have awesome ability in the air. If you look at the stats, it is quite possible that you were losing a lot of headers. Recently, someone sent me some match stats to look at because they were struggling with their passing. When I looked at the stats, the first thing I saw was that they lost more than 20 headers in the forward positions! That immediately explains a lot!

Another potential answer to the problem of dominating teams is the balanced tactic, which it looks as though you had some trouble with. The way I have it set up is cautious and counter-attacking. Without pace in the side, counter-attacking is a fairly pointless exercise. I'm getting my counter-attacking working really well at the moment due to having lots of pace on the wings and a really fast forward. I would suggest changing the passing to make it shorter and unticking counter-attack for your balanced tactic. That would be my first idea if you want to dominate games.

I see that you are tweaking a lot during games. In fact, in your worst game you changed tactic three times, which will only make matters worse.

This is just a few suggestions. There may be other things going on here that I am not sure about.

I have got my old test game with England up just to prove that you can play very simply with a top team and still win.

England 2 - 0 Czech Republic

Andorra 0 - 3 England

Croatia 0 - 1 England

England 6 - 0 Kazakhstan

Belarus 0 - 1 England

Germany 1 - 3 England

England 3 - 0 Ukraine

Kazakhstan 1 - 4 England

England 6 - 1 Andorra

I was also experimenting a lot with different formations during this run of results.

C.

hi again thanks for the answer .

regarding the pass it is in mixed right in the middle. i have a very good side so i think with these kind of instructions player should be able to use their abilitys right. i dont see it that i´m sending to much directs balls and losing it on the air, on 2d you don´t see that . i simply become a spectator to the opposition game...

my starting eleven is :

Gomes

Corluka DD

Bale DE

Woodgate DC

Metzelder DC

Dos Santos AMD

Di Maria AME

Veloso MC

Modric AMC

Amauri FCD

Robinho FCA

the backup is

Kuscak

Hutton

Mattock

Jagielka

Leon Andersson

Bentley

Albin

Zapater

Kranjcar

Huntelaar

Pandev

So i think i have a good squad, my wingers ara pacy so the thing you said about the problem on the balanced system doesn´t aply. i only change the tactic during the game when i am being smashed, i must do someting if at the end of 30/45 minutes i created 1/2 chances and the oppositiond created 10/15 or 20 so this is way i change to try changing the way of the game. if i´m winnig and fairly have the control of the game i don´t change nothing.

the main problem i and that's what realy concerns me is that i think all the options are very logical, but when palying specialy away games it´s very bad performance. i have a couple of tactics i build previously , one with i start almost every game and other to use if thing are not going right and i win most of the home game and have a acceptable behaviour away. finished 2nd with spurs in 2nd season and won FA Cup. although i find your system of tactics more logical the results aren't , sadly.

i will try it out a couple of times more but i'm begining to think on return to my previous version. in this one i have the oposite result i shot a lot and score few , i need 7/8 shots to score one in average, on the other side i conceed few shots to the oposition generaly but in each 2/3 one is in.

Thanks C.

hope you feedback soon

cheers

[mista T]

Have you tried switching passing from direct to short in the PL? As Crouch and I are playing at lower league teams (St. Albans and AFC Wimbledon) neither of our players are great passers of the ball, prompting the need for direct play. However, with the team of your quality I would reccomend a more short style of build up play.

[crouchaldinho]

Surely if you do this you are leaving yourself open to expoitation of space between your defence and midfield for the opposition attack to take advantage of ?!

i.e. your def and mid arent closing down, and by deepening your DL even further they are sitting back even more for the opposing side to take advantage of.

No, you are getting confused about mentality gaps and defensive line.

Mentality gaps between defence and midfield and/or a deeping of the defensive line that doesn't match with your overall mentality would cause a gap that your opposition could take advantage of.

By keeping your team close together (mentality) and by keeping the defence operating on the same agenda as the midfield (defensive line), you are ensuring that the tactic is compact.

Closing down is normally considered an aggressive and attacking option. With this setting, you are dictating how far a player will leave his position in order to close down an opponent. Yes, of course it can reduce space, but then so can tight marking. Consider the diagram in the link I posted above.

Indeed, in some tactics, you don't want to close down too heavily as you want to draw your opponent out and then hit them on the break.

There will be flaws in tactics that heavily close down, just as there are flaws in tactics that don't heavily close down. Think about it logically. A team that heavily closes down may well reduce space but defensive shape may also be destroyed. Furthermore, good players will still make things happen even when you close them down. A team that reduces space by man marking and does not close down so heavily should mean that the opponent has to do something pretty special to score a goal.

Anyway, there is heavy closing down in the tactics, especially in the forward positions, which should not give the opponent an easy time in building attacks.

I must be doing something right because I've only conceded 27 goals in 42 games this season (and for a period of that I was missing both of my first-choice centre-backs!)

C.

[crouchaldinho]

the main problem i and that's what realy concerns me is that i think all the options are very logical, but when palying specialy away games it´s very bad performance. i have a couple of tactics i build previously , one with i start almost every game and other to use if thing are not going right and i win most of the home game and have a acceptable behaviour away.

Is there a lack of pace at the back? This could be part of the problem when playing the attacking version. I can give you some advice if that is the case.

How are team talks going for the games in which you are playing really badly away from home? Just out of interest.

i will try it out a couple of times more but i'm begining to think on return to my previous version. in this one i have the oposite result i shot a lot and score few , i need 7/8 shots to score one in average, on the other side i conceed few shots to the oposition generaly but in each 2/3 one is in.

It's a funny old game. I have the opposite problem. Clean sheets but not enough goals. But then my strikers are 17 and 18 respectively and don't quite cut it at my level yet.

How are most of the chances that the opposition are creating being made? I have a feeling that the majority of this will be down to a lack of pace at the back. I also advise the study of the scout reports, which you say you didn't do before.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

I had a quick check on my game and I think we have found your Achilles' heel. Both centre-backs are looking pretty slow for you level, especially Metzelder.

I take it that your previous tactic didn't play with a high defensive line?

First of all, are you playing with tight man marking? If you are then there is no wonder you are getting badly beaten when playing a high defensive line.

If I am right about this, then I suggest you try one of the following solutions:

1) Buy quicker centre-backs.

2) Take tight marking off and try to make sure that your quickest centre-back is up against the oppositions main threat in terms of pace.

3) Try using zonal marking on the centre-backs and increase closing down slightly.

4) Or, ignore the above, and try deepening the d-line by two notches and then lower your defensive and attacking unit mentalities by the same amount (to keep things compact). This should result in your team sitting a bit deeper and perhaps coping with the thread of pace better. I would operate with loose man marking in this scenario.

The options are in the order of what I would try first.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

Forgot to say, I'd try the zonal marking on the centre-backs in conjunction with an offside trap, assuming you think your defenders have the right kind of anticipation and decision making skills.

[mista T]

So crouch, if my CB's are slow should I deepen my defensive line?