3-2-5 Attacking Shape from 4-2-3-1 DM AM Wide ----- GORGEOUS football

[bababooey]

I really can't say enough good things about positional play and how it's been implemented into FM24.  It's fantastic.

Look at this build up shape, below.  It's *perfect*. 

We occupy all of the important zones on the pitch, and force the other team to either A.) let us have the ball continuously or B.) come close us down, lose their shape, and allow us to penetrate space.

 

How did we end up with this shape?  Here's the tactic.  It's quite basic and simple.

 

 

The team instructions are mostly irrelevant here (and this isn't intended to be a comprehensive post explaining how this works).

It looks like such a defensive-minded tactic on paper. 4 players on defend duties across the back line, 2 DM's, and only 2 attack duties throughout. And yet, I've never created more scoring chances than with this shape, as it morphs into a 3-2-5 in possession. 

It was weird going away from my tried and true 4-3-3, but I wanted to make use of having 3 elite attackers behind a striker.  And, I wanted to experiment with the roaming playmaker role, which is one I've basically never used to any extent.  It's amazing what happens when you give roles the right complementary roles around them. It was also tricky to get the right rest defense shape from our standard 4-3-3.  I was using Balde as an attacking fullback, which meant I only had 4 players left to form our rest defense (typically in a 3-1).   A 3-2  is significantly more stable, for obvious reasons. 

As I see it, the 3 most important roles in this shape are the Libero, the RPM, and the AM-S.  They form a spine for the team, and if we didnt get that right, the whole thing would fall apart.

The CD-D is also really important because he's typically the deepest defender and could get into some 1v1's against long balls.

 

 

There are a few updates in this thread where I detail some tweaks to the system.

Edited Tuesday at 15:53 by bababooey
updates

[FalkoNguyen]

I actually prefer the 3-2 shape to be wider; ideally, it should cover all 5 lanes in buildup. There should be no more than 2 players in the vertical line and no more than 3 in the horizontal line. But in defense, I want it to be a bit more narrow. Balancing width in both attack and defense in positional play really troubled me recently.
Positional play in this version is a big upgrade but it can improve. Lots of time, my team can't use the spare man in build-up efficiently or they can't spread the player effectively in build-up, making the whole thing more like a cosmetic feature 

[Kreeki]

Any chance you can post the team instructions you run with for inspiration? I'm running a similar shape but struggling to find a set that give me "beautiful" football at the minute, much appreciated if so!

[bababooey]

36 minutes ago, Kreeki said:

Any chance you can post the team instructions you run with for inspiration? I'm running a similar shape but struggling to find a set that give me "beautiful" football at the minute, much appreciated if so!

Sure thing.  It's basically my version of a "control possession" tactic.

Mentality:  Balanced (I rarely ever change this)

In Possession:  Shorter passing, play out of defense, fairly narrow

In Transition:  Distribute to center backs (depends on if my opponent uses 2 strikers, then I will switch this to fullbacks), counter-press

Out of Possession:  High Press, Higher line, press more often, step up more

The only PI's I've used in this approach are telling both of my wingers to cut inside.  That's it. 

[bosque]

51 minutes ago, bababooey said:

Sure thing.  It's basically my version of a "control possession" tactic.

Mentality:  Balanced (I rarely ever change this)

In Possession:  Shorter passing, play out of defense, fairly narrow

In Transition:  Distribute to center backs (depends on if my opponent uses 2 strikers, then I will switch this to fullbacks), counter-press

Out of Possession:  High Press, Higher line, press more often, step up more

The only PI's I've used in this approach are telling both of my wingers to cut inside.  That's it. 

I do love a tactic with few team instructions. All of them make perfect sense.

[bababooey]

40 minutes ago, bosque said:

I do love a tactic with few team instructions. All of them make perfect sense.

I think people totally underestimate the impact of roles and duties, and overestimate the impact of team instructions. There is simply no reason to start throwing a million different instructions at the team, unless you're trying to do some really weird stuff that requires ultra-specific instructions.

[bosque]

1 hour ago, bababooey said:

I think people totally underestimate the impact of roles and duties, and overestimate the impact of team instructions. There is simply no reason to start throwing a million different instructions at the team, unless you're trying to do some really weird stuff that requires ultra-specific instructions.

I think it just feels "right" to give lots of team instructions, because its what a manager do. But yeah, player (attributes and traits), roles and duties always first

Edited May 7 by bosque

[Cloud9]

43 minutes ago, bosque said:

I think it just feels "right" to give lots of team instructions, because its what a manager do. But yeah, player (attributes and traits), roles and duties always first

I've been going with an almost completely blank slate in terms of TIs (even in my counter attack setups) and just focusing on roles + micromanaging the PIs instead to get the desired effects on the pitch.

Will then use TI combos / role changes in matches themselves to change things up when the original plan isn't working. 

Edited May 7 by Cloud9

[bosque]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

I've been going with an almost completely blank slate in terms of TIs (even in my counter attack setups) and just focusing on roles + micromanaging the PIs instead to get the desired effects on the pitch.

Will then use TI combos / role changes in matches themselves to change things up when the original plan isn't working. 

And what about team mentality? Do you change it or leave it on Balanced?

[Cloud9]

20 minutes ago, bosque said:

And what about team mentality? Do you change it or leave it on Balanced?

I never change the mentality since it will impact everything in the tactic.

Edited May 7 by Cloud9

[billmatic]

21 hours ago, bababooey said:

Relatively new to creating my own tactics so I'm still wrapping my head around roles and duties, but I wanted to ask why you chose W - At on one side and W - Su on the other. Tactical decision, personnel decision, or something I'm missing?

16 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Will then use TI combos / role changes in matches themselves to change things up when the original plan isn't working. 

Do you play with comprehensive highlights?

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, billmatic said:

Relatively new to creating my own tactics so I'm still wrapping my head around roles and duties, but I wanted to ask why you chose W - At on one side and W - Su on the other. Tactical decision, personnel decision, or something I'm missing?

Do you play with comprehensive highlights?

I always watch the first 15 minutes on full. After that I switch to comprehensive if it's not a big match, but will go back to full if the match requires it. I speed thing ups + go w/shorter highlight modes if the match is wrapped up. 

 

[bababooey]

10 hours ago, billmatic said:

Relatively new to creating my own tactics so I'm still wrapping my head around roles and duties, but I wanted to ask why you chose W - At on one side and W - Su on the other. Tactical decision, personnel decision, or something I'm missing?

Do you play with comprehensive highlights?

The idea with the winger roles and duties was that we need width.  The wide defenders are both inverted fullbacks, and there isn't a role in central midfield that naturally pulls wide.  So where is our width going to come from? We have to use wingers or else this will be way too narrowly focused. I instruct them to cut inside because I want to encourage them to take on their man and be a threat in that way, too.

I play on extended highlights once I've got a good handle on how the particular tactic works. But when I need to investigate something further, I will absolutely go to comprehensive, and sometimes even the full match.

[davideACM]

Il 7/5/2024 in 00:16 , bababooey ha scritto:

Sure thing.  It's basically my version of a "control possession" tactic.

Mentality:  Balanced (I rarely ever change this)

In Possession:  Shorter passing, play out of defense, fairly narrow

In Transition:  Distribute to center backs (depends on if my opponent uses 2 strikers, then I will switch this to fullbacks), counter-press

Out of Possession:  High Press, Higher line, press more often, step up more

The only PI's I've used in this approach are telling both of my wingers to cut inside.  That's it. 

Hi, amazing tactic. Would you please share screenshots of your TIs please? 

[bababooey]

5 hours ago, davideACM said:

Hi, amazing tactic. Would you please share screenshots of your TIs please? 

I'm going to post an update in a few minutes.  It will have everything you need.

[bababooey]

** Update **

I've made some tweaks, and I thought I would share my thoughts with you here, along with some screenshots from a recent match.

 

Okay so, as you can see, we've made a few adjustments. 

The Libero is now on a support duty. This is because I really want to see him push forward earlier, and more often. Typically on the defend duty, he waits until it's completely safe to move up. I dont need him doing that, so switching to support was a good move. 

We've changed the attacking winger to play on the right side, instead of the left. This is because I believe the RPM has a better combination with the support winger. Also, it suits the players we have.

I switched the team mentality to positive.  This has made the biggest difference.  I'm usually reluctant to come off of balanced, but this has been something that I think held us back a bit. Positive has changed our play in a lot of good ways. We're just more proactive with the ball, taking more risks, and imposing ourselves on the opposition.  Team mentality really does have a major impact on your overall approach. 

We've removed unnecessary instructions out of possession. Those were: step up more and higher line.  We simply don't need them, and sometimes, less is more!

Last thing I did, was add in "roam from position" and "moves into channels" for the AM-S.  I don't really like the idea of a static #10 who can be easily marked out of a game. So giving him those instructions (combined with his own traits) encourages him to find those little pockets of space to receive a pass.

Wingers are both told to cut inside. 

 

Here are some screenshots so you can see how this works in practice.

This is what the team looks like out of possession at the very start of a match (Atletico had the kick off so they started with the ball)

The back 4 looks like a typical back 4.  The only interesting thing here is the RPM is aggressively closing down ahead of the midfield, while the AM-S drops in to the RPM's original spot. 

We don't actively look for counter-attacks (although we could), I prefer to let them happen naturally.  The striker and right winger are both positioned well to get on the end of a direct pass after a turnover.

 

When the opposition has kept possession long enough, our press drops back to consolidate in midfield.  Here you can see a 4-5-1 shape has developed, with the AM-S dropping in to form a little triangle with the 2 DM's.

Again, the back 4 is very traditional here, nothing weird.  And you can see there is no real need for us to push up further or step up more. The space between the lines is not an issue.

The player on the ball does have a passing option (Felipe to De Paul) but that can easily be dealt with because of our press.

 

Here is an image of the team in the build up phase.

Couple of things going on here worth noting...

The RPM has dropped deep to form a triple pivot with the DM-S and L-S.  This is not something that always happens, but it's because Gavi has the "comes deep to get ball" trait. I think it could also be part of the behavior of the role itself, but I dont know if that's true.   Either way!  It's kind of cool, especially against a team that uses 2 strikers. It just gives us more options to build play.

The AM-S  (Pedri) has shifted wide right, in the halfspace between the striker and the right winger.  You could argue that he should be more central, but remember this just a screenshot of a moment in time. And his movement is not always the same. I quite like this, because if we can switch play quickly, then the opposition is going to have trouble.  In fact, we scored a goal in that match where the ball went quickly from the center, into the feet of the right winger, who drove into the box himself, and scored. 

We're holding the width nicely here. The left winger is on the touchline, and the right winger is a little bit off his touchline, but still quite wide. The defense has to spread itself out a bit to compensate for this, which should allow us to more easily control possession in the middle of the pitch. 

 

Here is an image of the team safely in possession, and now in the chance creation phase of play.

In this situation, the ball had been out wide with Kounde (IF-D) who briefly took on the attacking role of a normal fullback because he had space.  The other team is playing without wingers in a narrow 5-3-2.

But, even with Kounde moving out wide here, you can still see the 3-2 build out shape.  Diomande (L-S) is firmly in position with the DM-S to form that double pivot.  Gavi, the RPM, is roaming around doing his thing, available for a long pass, or to make a run.  I like to let him do whatever he wants.

You can also see how Pedri (AM-S) has shifted wide, and Ansu Fati (AF-A) is looking to break off the shoulder of the central defenders.

 

Closing Thoughts

 

And so that's it.  There's really not much else to say here.  It's a tactic that works for my team, and suits how we want to play.  It's not designed to be plug in play, and it's certainly not going to guarantee success. There's nothing exploitative about it that I'm aware of.  

Something I am thinking about doing, is experimenting using a false 9 combined with a shadow striker. Keeping everything else the same, I wonder what type of attacking patterns that could provide?

Or, we could turn one of the wide defenders from a IF-D to a IWB-D (or S), to experiment with more of a 2-3 build out shape, instead of the 3-2.   That would probably expose our flanks, but if you've got the right players, you can do pretty much anything.

Also, we could easily change to a more traditional 4-2-3-1 for tougher away matches by changing the libero to a standard central defender, and changing the roaming playmaker to a role that doesnt rotate forward. This way, we would have a more traditional 4-2 build up that could withstand heavy pressing, while still having 4 players up front ready to receive a pass.

The 4-2-3-1 is super flexible, and small changes can do all sorts of crazy things to your tactics.

Edited May 11 by bababooey
Removing image I didnt need to use

[FalkoNguyen]

Your tactic looks very secure. I think Gavi's dropping deep trait makes him a better option in the RPM role, which is someone in whom I always imagine moving vertically and participating in all phases of the game.
3-2 shape has enough players to build up through the middle so maybe change the left side to WB(a). I just feel weird about using 6 players in a buildup like the 4-2 shape . It's a high tempo, quick short pass style that led to an end-to-end game.
And how is Fati doing, been using a lone striker with 2 wingers, and I always find him very isolated, even with cut inside.

[bababooey]

5 hours ago, FalkoNguyen said:

Your tactic looks very secure. I think Gavi's dropping deep trait makes him a better option in the RPM role, which is someone in whom I always imagine moving vertically and participating in all phases of the game.
3-2 shape has enough players to build up through the middle so maybe change the left side to WB(a). I just feel weird about using 6 players in a buildup like the 4-2 shape . It's a high tempo, quick short pass style that led to an end-to-end game.
And how is Fati doing, been using a lone striker with 2 wingers, and I always find him very isolated, even with cut inside.

Yeah I think people have to remember that the player traits dont = the player always doing the thing they describe. It's a tendency, right? So, he doesn't always come deep to get the ball.  Which is nice, because as you've pointed out, sometimes it would be silly to have him involved in the build up when we already have a double pivot.

As for Fati, he's doing fine.  10 league matches this year, he's got 5 G and 5 A with an avg rating of 7.24.  I think there are times when he's a bit isolated, but that's normal for a lone striker.

Ideally, given his profile, I would move him back to the wings once we've got the budget to bring in a world-class striker who has a more physical profile.

[Diverisma158]

hace 18 horas, bababooey dijo:

** Update **

I've made some tweaks, and I thought I would share my thoughts with you here, along with some screenshots from a recent match.

 

Okay so, as you can see, we've made a few adjustments. 

The Libero is now on a support duty. This is because I really want to see him push forward earlier, and more often. Typically on the defend duty, he waits until it's completely safe to move up. I dont need him doing that, so switching to support was a good move. 

We've changed the attacking winger to play on the right side, instead of the left. This is because I believe the RPM has a better combination with the support winger. Also, it suits the players we have.

I switched the team mentality to positive.  This has made the biggest difference.  I'm usually reluctant to come off of balanced, but this has been something that I think held us back a bit. Positive has changed our play in a lot of good ways. We're just more proactive with the ball, taking more risks, and imposing ourselves on the opposition.  Team mentality really does have a major impact on your overall approach. 

We've removed unnecessary instructions out of possession. Those were: step up more and higher line.  We simply don't need them, and sometimes, less is more!

Last thing I did, was add in "roam from position" and "moves into channels" for the AM-S.  I don't really like the idea of a static #10 who can be easily marked out of a game. So giving him those instructions (combined with his own traits) encourages him to find those little pockets of space to receive a pass.

Wingers are both told to cut inside. 

 

Here are some screenshots so you can see how this works in practice.

This is what the team looks like out of possession at the very start of a match (Atletico had the kick off so they started with the ball)

The back 4 looks like a typical back 4.  The only interesting thing here is the RPM is aggressively closing down ahead of the midfield, while the AM-S drops in to the RPM's original spot. 

We don't actively look for counter-attacks (although we could), I prefer to let them happen naturally.  The striker and right winger are both positioned well to get on the end of a direct pass after a turnover.

 

When the opposition has kept possession long enough, our press drops back to consolidate in midfield.  Here you can see a 4-5-1 shape has developed, with the AM-S dropping in to form a little triangle with the 2 DM's.

Again, the back 4 is very traditional here, nothing weird.  And you can see there is no real need for us to push up further or step up more. The space between the lines is not an issue.

The player on the ball does have a passing option (Felipe to De Paul) but that can easily be dealt with because of our press.

 

Here is an image of the team in the build up phase.

Couple of things going on here worth noting...

The RPM has dropped deep to form a triple pivot with the DM-S and L-S.  This is not something that always happens, but it's because Gavi has the "comes deep to get ball" trait. I think it could also be part of the behavior of the role itself, but I dont know if that's true.   Either way!  It's kind of cool, especially against a team that uses 2 strikers. It just gives us more options to build play.

The AM-S  (Pedri) has shifted wide right, in the halfspace between the striker and the right winger.  You could argue that he should be more central, but remember this just a screenshot of a moment in time. And his movement is not always the same. I quite like this, because if we can switch play quickly, then the opposition is going to have trouble.  In fact, we scored a goal in that match where the ball went quickly from the center, into the feet of the right winger, who drove into the box himself, and scored. 

We're holding the width nicely here. The left winger is on the touchline, and the right winger is a little bit off his touchline, but still quite wide. The defense has to spread itself out a bit to compensate for this, which should allow us to more easily control possession in the middle of the pitch. 

 

Here is an image of the team safely in possession, and now in the chance creation phase of play.

In this situation, the ball had been out wide with Kounde (IF-D) who briefly took on the attacking role of a normal fullback because he had space.  The other team is playing without wingers in a narrow 5-3-2.

But, even with Kounde moving out wide here, you can still see the 3-2 build out shape.  Diomande (L-S) is firmly in position with the DM-S to form that double pivot.  Gavi, the RPM, is roaming around doing his thing, available for a long pass, or to make a run.  I like to let him do whatever he wants.

You can also see how Pedri (AM-S) has shifted wide, and Ansu Fati (AF-A) is looking to break off the shoulder of the central defenders.

 

Closing Thoughts

 

And so that's it.  There's really not much else to say here.  It's a tactic that works for my team, and suits how we want to play.  It's not designed to be plug in play, and it's certainly not going to guarantee success. There's nothing exploitative about it that I'm aware of.  

Something I am thinking about doing, is experimenting using a false 9 combined with a shadow striker. Keeping everything else the same, I wonder what type of attacking patterns that could provide?

Or, we could turn one of the wide defenders from a IF-D to a IWB-D (or S), to experiment with more of a 2-3 build out shape, instead of the 3-2.   That would probably expose our flanks, but if you've got the right players, you can do pretty much anything.

Also, we could easily change to a more traditional 4-2-3-1 for tougher away matches by changing the libero to a standard central defender, and changing the roaming playmaker to a role that doesnt rotate forward. This way, we would have a more traditional 4-2 build up that could withstand heavy pressing, while still having 4 players up front ready to receive a pass.

The 4-2-3-1 is super flexible, and small changes can do all sorts of crazy things to your tactics.

its enjoyable to see that, just 1 thing, can u post the PI? ty!

[bababooey]

49 minutes ago, Diverisma158 said:

its enjoyable to see that, just 1 thing, can u post the PI? ty!

The only PI's I use are:

both wingers:  cut inside

AMC:  roam + move into channels

 

That's it

[Djeon36]

Just wondering is it possible to change the role of the striker and still get the same results? I was thinking either a PF or a TF but I'm not sure if they can still create the same attacking formation.

[FalkoNguyen]

14 hours ago, Djeon36 said:

Just wondering is it possible to change the role of the striker and still get the same results? I was thinking either a PF or a TF but I'm not sure if they can still create the same attacking formation.

I have good results with both PFa and DLFs in the possession system; the AMC definitely helps him not get too isolated, using fairly narrow help too.

[robot_skeleton]

This is soo good, really like the way you explain the tactic. I am quite surprised by how high the RPM is in the very first picture. Also the movement of the AM is quite interesting.  If you happen to make it work with an F9 that would be so cool, but also an AF might suit the wingers better but anyhow, looking forward to more!

[Chlorice10]

On 07/05/2024 at 04:33, bababooey said:

I really can't say enough good things about positional play and how it's been implemented into FM24.  It's fantastic.

Look at this build up shape, below.  It's *perfect*. 

We occupy all of the important zones on the pitch, and force the other team to either A.) let us have the ball continuously or B.) come close us down, lose their shape, and allow us to penetrate space.

 

How did we end up with this shape?  Here's the tactic.  It's quite basic and simple.

 

 

The team instructions are mostly irrelevant here (and this isn't intended to be a comprehensive post explaining how this works).

It looks like such a defensive-minded tactic on paper. 4 players on defend duties across the back line, 2 DM's, and only 2 attack duties throughout. And yet, I've never created more scoring chances than with this shape, as it morphs into a 3-2-5 in possession. 

It was weird going away from my tried and true 4-3-3, but I wanted to make use of having 3 elite attackers behind a striker.  And, I wanted to experiment with the roaming playmaker role, which is one I've basically never used to any extent.  It's amazing what happens when you give roles the right complementary roles around them. It was also tricky to get the right rest defense shape from our standard 4-3-3.  I was using Balde as an attacking fullback, which meant I only had 4 players left to form our rest defense (typically in a 3-1).   A 3-2  is significantly more stable, for obvious reasons. 

As I see it, the 3 most important roles in this shape are the Libero, the RPM, and the AM-S.  They form a spine for the team, and if we didnt get that right, the whole thing would fall apart.

The CD-D is also really important because he's typically the deepest defender and could get into some 1v1's against long balls.

 

can this work with an iw(s) and If(s) on the flank instead of both  winger ?  does the winger cross often ?  

[Flohrinho]

On 19/05/2024 at 03:41, Chlorice10 said:

can this work with an iw(s) and If(s) on the flank instead of both  winger ?  does the winger cross often ?  

I'm actually playing a very similar tactic to OPs with IF(s) on both wings, it works pretty well.

I use different rest defenses though based on how my opponent lines up.

I made a post about it here: 

 

[Jack Sarahs]

On 06/05/2024 at 21:33, bababooey said:

I really can't say enough good things about positional play and how it's been implemented into FM24.  It's fantastic.

Look at this build up shape, below.  It's *perfect*. 

We occupy all of the important zones on the pitch, and force the other team to either A.) let us have the ball continuously or B.) come close us down, lose their shape, and allow us to penetrate space.

 

How did we end up with this shape?  Here's the tactic.  It's quite basic and simple.

 

 

The team instructions are mostly irrelevant here (and this isn't intended to be a comprehensive post explaining how this works).

It looks like such a defensive-minded tactic on paper. 4 players on defend duties across the back line, 2 DM's, and only 2 attack duties throughout. And yet, I've never created more scoring chances than with this shape, as it morphs into a 3-2-5 in possession. 

It was weird going away from my tried and true 4-3-3, but I wanted to make use of having 3 elite attackers behind a striker.  And, I wanted to experiment with the roaming playmaker role, which is one I've basically never used to any extent.  It's amazing what happens when you give roles the right complementary roles around them. It was also tricky to get the right rest defense shape from our standard 4-3-3.  I was using Balde as an attacking fullback, which meant I only had 4 players left to form our rest defense (typically in a 3-1).   A 3-2  is significantly more stable, for obvious reasons. 

As I see it, the 3 most important roles in this shape are the Libero, the RPM, and the AM-S.  They form a spine for the team, and if we didnt get that right, the whole thing would fall apart.

The CD-D is also really important because he's typically the deepest defender and could get into some 1v1's against long balls.

 

Apologies I've only just seen this but great thread and as someone who worked on that feature I'm really pleased to see people enjoy it to this level!

[bababooey]

3 hours ago, Jack Sarahs said:

Apologies I've only just seen this but great thread and as someone who worked on that feature I'm really pleased to see people enjoy it to this level!

Cheers Jack! Well done!

[bababooey]

*** UPDATE ***

Not too many changes here but I have been using the SV-A in place of the RPM-S, and my god, it's glorious.

So here's the thinking behind that change...

Basically, the SV-A rotates up into the AMC tier more frequently/sooner than the RPM does. And this allows us to exert much more control over the highlighted red zone. This is what we want.

The DM-S is told to hold position.  This is not 100% needed, but I felt like this gives us a bit more stability.

I also have instructed the Libero to shoot less often, because our Libero is awful at long shots. If you have one that is good at long shots, then you'd have another weapon in your arsenal.

 

The AMC still moves to the side to compensate, which is also what we want to see.

And, now that the SV-A is routinely moving into that space, it causes defenses headaches about whom to mark.  The AMC is often times left in space to do damage.

 

One thing that has been a bit strange is the lack of goals from the striker position.  Sometimes these high press systems can fall victim to the offside trap, and using a role like AF-A certainly contributes to that.

But overall, I dont really care who scores the goals.  I think our 2nd leading scorer is Araujo, who is a center back, who bangs in goals from the near post on our attacking corner routine.

[bababooey]

On 18/05/2024 at 21:41, Chlorice10 said:

can this work with an iw(s) and If(s) on the flank instead of both  winger ?  does the winger cross often ?  

I wouldn't personally want to try that because then we would lack width.  Width is crucial to our game because we create chances by dragging the opponents around and disrupting their shape.

[bababooey]

On 14/05/2024 at 22:58, Djeon36 said:

Just wondering is it possible to change the role of the striker and still get the same results? I was thinking either a PF or a TF but I'm not sure if they can still create the same attacking formation.

The best thing to do is try!  

I dont guarantee any results btw.  This is not meant to be a "download tactic"  - it's heavily tuned for the squad I have, and I am no expert at creating tactics. 

All I do is try to see what shapes we can form in the various phases of play.  I'm basically copying Guardiola's 3-2-2-3 attacking shape, but my starting point is a 4-2-3-1 instead of 4-3-3. 

I think a PF could work well because this system presses extremely well.  A target forward would also be interesting if you've got a great AMC who can get on to those knockdowns and such.  However, when you use a TF, you have to know that this means your team's play will sort of be funneled into that role. So if he's marked well by the other team, your attacks can lose their effectiveness.  Unless, again, you've got a great bit of variety in the way you can attack.  Maybe an IF-A on one side, with a SS-A behind.

[bababooey]

Something cool you guys can do is adjust this system on the fly.

Sometimes when we go ahead, particularly during tougher matches, I like to change the SV-A to a DLP-S.   This gives us, effectively, a triple pivot (Libero, Defensive mid, DLP) in front of our back 3 (IFB/CD/IFB) which makes keeping possession extremely easy. Teams have to work harder to win the ball back, and then open themselves up to counter-attacks.  I don't usually switch on the "counter" instruction because I prefer to let them happen organically.  Sometimes if you use that instruction, the counter's will be tried in less than ideal places, and you can get burned. 

Another thing you can do is change the system more dramatically....

Switch the defense to a "standard" back 4 of FB/BPD/CD/FB.  Switch the midfield to a DLP/DM combo to create a system with no rotations at all.  This could be useful for when you don't care about possession, but instead, want to hit the other team with a quick counter.

[Flohrinho]

21 minutes ago, bababooey said:

I wouldn't personally want to try that because then we would lack width.  Width is crucial to our game because we create chances by dragging the opponents around and disrupting their shape.

That's what I thought first but my IF-SU actually hold the width really well, they often come inside to receive the ball pulling their defender along with them, which opens up space on the flanks that they then either dribble into directly or pass it to the IFB-DE and make the run after that opening an easy pass for the IFB-DE down the line.

[Mutumba]

Im using your tactic and I agree, its great. But. My AF (Gabriel Jesus, Nketiah, Martinelli) are all getting poor ratings. Any ideas why?

[thats life]

Any download for this tactic ? 
cheers

[bababooey]

6 hours ago, Mutumba said:

Im using your tactic and I agree, its great. But. My AF (Gabriel Jesus, Nketiah, Martinelli) are all getting poor ratings. Any ideas why?

It depends on many things.  If a striker isn't playing well, then you first have to look and see if they are getting the supply they need to score goals.

My tactic here is not necessarily geared towards funneling all our attacks through the striker. Goals come from a lot of different players because we try to occupy all the dangerous areas.

I've found that getting a lone striker to score a lot of goals by himself requires a somewhat one-dimensional approach that can backfire if your striker has a bad day.

But, what you should do is think of it like this:

- Are we creating chances for the striker? 

- If yes, are the strikers just missing the target?

- if no, who is getting on the end of the chances being made?

- if your team is playing well, creating chances, and scoring plenty, then I wouldn't worry too much about which player scores the goals.

[bababooey]

3 hours ago, thats life said:

Any download for this tactic ? 
cheers

Nope.  It's not meant to be a downloaded tactic, as it is highly tailored for the squad I have at my disposal.

You can easily replicate it by just using the screenshots I've included.  There's no magic here

[Djeon36]

11 hours ago, bababooey said:

Something cool you guys can do is adjust this system on the fly.

Sometimes when we go ahead, particularly during tougher matches, I like to change the SV-A to a DLP-S.   This gives us, effectively, a triple pivot (Libero, Defensive mid, DLP) in front of our back 3 (IFB/CD/IFB) which makes keeping possession extremely easy. Teams have to work harder to win the ball back, and then open themselves up to counter-attacks.  I don't usually switch on the "counter" instruction because I prefer to let them happen organically.  Sometimes if you use that instruction, the counter's will be tried in less than ideal places, and you can get burned. 

Another thing you can do is change the system more dramatically....

Switch the defense to a "standard" back 4 of FB/BPD/CD/FB.  Switch the midfield to a DLP/DM combo to create a system with no rotations at all.  This could be useful for when you don't care about possession, but instead, want to hit the other team with a quick counter.

Sounds good I'll definitely give that a try especially since I'm still on FM23.

[FalkoNguyen]

On 19/05/2024 at 08:41, Chlorice10 said:

can this work with an iw(s) and If(s) on the flank instead of both  winger ?  does the winger cross often ?  

You can have a lot of freedom with your attacking 5 in term of roles if you have 3-2 rest defense. IF or IW worked fine if you instructed them to stay wider. Sometimes I even added a hold position for them to take more touch and wait for AMC or SV to arrive in half space. A winger with great teaching attributes thrives in that role, someone like Silva, Grealish, or Sancho.

[bababooey]

11 hours ago, Djeon36 said:

Sounds good I'll definitely give that a try especially since I'm still on FM23.

Keep in mind that positional play does not work in FM23 the way it does in FM24.  The change is massive, actually.

Not saying you can't use a similar plan, but it will not look the same.

[04texag]

This is an excellent thread. Love seeing other people also doing good positional play explorations. On FM24, I’ve been using the 433 a lot more than the 4231, which is interesting as in my past tactical primers on PP I used the 4231. I have used similar back lines this year as you have here. I love the way the libero plays, especially if you have a really solid on the ball BPD. 
 

have you tried using the halfback any? I rotate between using the HB if I put my libero on support and using the anchor PRD if using libero on defend. 
 

Another thing I’ve really enjoyed is putting a CD-cover next to the libero. This will ensure one very deep defender in the 325 setup which helps against counters. Works a lot like Ruben Dias does for city often. 

[bababooey]

14 hours ago, 04texag said:

This is an excellent thread. Love seeing other people also doing good positional play explorations. On FM24, I’ve been using the 433 a lot more than the 4231, which is interesting as in my past tactical primers on PP I used the 4231. I have used similar back lines this year as you have here. I love the way the libero plays, especially if you have a really solid on the ball BPD. 
 

have you tried using the halfback any? I rotate between using the HB if I put my libero on support and using the anchor PRD if using libero on defend. 
 

Another thing I’ve really enjoyed is putting a CD-cover next to the libero. This will ensure one very deep defender in the 325 setup which helps against counters. Works a lot like Ruben Dias does for city often. 

Thanks 04texag!

I have tried the halfback, but that was in a 4-3-3 and I didnt like it.  IT just felt like it wasn't worth doing unless we had super attacking wingbacks, which is not what I want to see at  all.

I think people have definitely used it in a 4-2-3-1 DM with good results.  IIRC Rashidi has an example tactic in one of his threads that uses a HB in a 4-2-3-1 DM.

I've found that the CD-D does stay back the way you'd want without needing to change to a cover duty.  However, That could work! I think it depends on how aggressive your pressing trap is. The more aggressive it is, perhaps you'd benefit from the cover duty in that spot.  But my system is not gegenpress, and I think we need the CD-D to be willing to step up when needed. 

YMMV

[bababooey]

I think people are well-intentioned when asking for a download of this tactic, but I promise you that it's not special, and not intended to be a plug-and-play thing at all.

To me, this is all about understanding the shapes your team can form in the various phases of play, utilizing the position play mechanics in FM24's match engine.

That's really what it boils down to. 

I wanted to see a 3-2-5 / 3-2-2-3 build up, and a 4-5-1(ish) defensive shape.  How you get there is kind of irrelevant because there's a ton of ways to accomplish this.

And by the way, there are plenty of other shapes to use!  3-2-5 / 3-2-2-3 is what's popular right now because of managers like Guardiola, but it's not the only way to create an effective structure.