The Rotated Crystalline With An Enganche! Juego de Posición

[RDF Tactics]

This will/can be a thread for others to post some ideas. In FM, I wanted to create a "new formation". Not something some would deem completely unrealistic haha but take ideas from IRL and create your own ideas. That's what Football Manager is about haha! The opportunity to think you're on the same wavelength as Pep Guardiola.

Now the tactical idea. What is 'Crystalline'? The Google definition is having the structure and form of a crystal; composed of crystals. I love the sound of that.

4-2-3-1's and 4-3-3's are systems that have internal crystalline structures. The three midfielders in the middle are connection points for the 7 players on the outside. 8 if you want to include your goalkeeper. Interchanging (self-organizing movements) positions become important in maintaining that structure - if our RCM moves wide, another player will need to move inside to repair our structure. Always, 3 in the middle, 8 on the outside during our progression.

Spoiler

But, 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 aren't exactly unique formations. Hardly any formation now is entirely unique. But what we can do is have a unique crystalline structure. So, let me introduce to you the Rotated Crystalline. It is simply a mix of the two formations haha 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1. But, this has allowed us to have a unique shape in midfield with the aim of ALWAYS having our midfielders operating on different heights and staggered. The idea is that it completely disrupts the opponent's shape but also allows us to implement Juego de Posición. Which consists of The Third Man Concept - Qualitative Superiority - Positional Superiority and Numerical Advantages.

Spoiler

Example. Our Rotated Crystalline naturally has slightly more presence on the left. Especially with the use of two playmakers. This can leave our far-side winger free for 1v1s. This winger will then have the quality on the ball to beat full-backs in a 1v1. That is Qualitative Superiority. The strategy is built on a profound understanding of the players on both sides, enabling us to overload one side of the field and isolate our superior matchup on the other. 

In FM, ball progression can look a lot like this. Start with the midfield three. On different heights and staggered. Felix and De Jong are in free spaces but opposition number 7 is blocking the immediate pass to both. Ilkay is free and also an easy route to Lamine Yamal who can attack 1v1. Or hold up the ball, wait for the Cancelo overlap where then Lamine will have various options. But also, creates a 2v1 (numerical advantage). This is all possible because of our build-up just seconds before. It was all on the left-hand side which shifted their defence towards that side. Using the ball as the reference point, we have 7v7 in the red zone (including our sweeper-keeper). But in the other zone, it's now 4v3 to our advantage.

Spoiler

 

Now welcome our Enganche. A role that is rarely used in Football Manager and possibly one reason is finding an effective system for that role. Have we found one? Enganche is supposed to be the hook between midfield and attack and acts as a pivot as the system around him moves. In attack, he'll hold his position in the left half-space as we create our 2-3-5 attacking shape. The most intriguing instruction with the Enganche is how he 'holds position', further enhancing our structure - Both the Enganche and DLP will hold their position, rarely roaming and interchanging allowing us to rarely break structure. 

 

 

The CM(s) you can say is the only player in midfield allowed to somewhat roam and that's perfectly fine as we also do need to move our opposition to break them down rather than having a structured shape just for the sake of it - it still has to be pretty effective in breaking teams down. So, we need structure fillers - a player who can then move into the position our RCM has vacated. Initially, this started with a Libero but often, the Libero would move forward and give us a sort of box shape midfield. Even with Libero on defend, that also meant the RB had to be an IFB.

This meant our overlap on the right was a lot less effective and struggled to create that 2v1 that became useful. And we lost our midfield three which became a midfield 4. So, I tried an IWB and FB on support and continuing to mix between the two at the moment - the tactic is still new so not everything is set in stone. IWB does similar to the Libero in that he joins the DM to create a double pivot. Great for rest defence, not for the structure I wanted to build. But I felt there was less tendency to do this compared to the Libero. *As writing this, I just had the idea of using an IWB with overlap instruction though that would increase the IWBs mentality, I can also use a defend duty*

This at the moment is the tactic - again, things aren't set in stone and tweaking until I hit that sweet spot though I don't feel far away. It's a possession-based tactic, of course. But possession itself doesn't win you games, it's what we do with that possession so I'm not overly concerned about having 60-70% possession. I do like to see us effective in being able to retain possession and in attack, our pass % is pretty impressive. In games where we don't have 65% possession, there is a slight focus on how we defend as a team which I did post a video in how I do that when playing against teams.

 

Because this is NOT a save and only a "tactic test" I guess, results at this point aren't the MOST important thing. Data can be, though. And there are two things I want to improve. Tackles Won % (again! lol). We have the 2nd worst tackles-won ratio. Similar to my previous issue, we tackle and nobody close by to pick up the 2nd ball and it counts as a tackle lost. This time, though, I will NOT be changing formation entirely.

But also Expected Goals per Shot. We are joint 5th with Atletico so not shocking. Maybe I am being too picky here, too. Trying to perfect everything. Maybe it doesn't NEED improving? But doesn't mean to ignore it if I believe I can find a non-determinantal solution for it.

Spoiler

So that's it, really. If you've recently come up with some intriguing ideas then feel free to share!

Edited February 23 by RDF Tactics

[RDF Tactics]

Regarding Expect Goal per Shot, I think I found the "issue" which isn't completely a tactical thing.

Using the default Near Post (inswing) routine, we have the most shooting actions from corners. They won't generate a high xG. I mean, I could remove the routine and just have one player in the box or something, but that'll feel wrong so will probably change the delivery type or something. 

We get fouled the most, too. So generally, we are involved in a lot of attacking set-pieces. Raphinha probably a bit too strong on those set pieces lol

 

[crusadertsar]

Very thought-provoking stuff 🤔 Will definitely look forward for more. 

[Fantasista10]

Love your stuff RDF - and this is really interesting. Anything related to Juego de Posición always catches my attention, and the Enganche makes this all the more intriguing since it's become a bit of a forgotten role! 

You inspired me to use traditional Fullbacks on Support in my own system, especially when facing a back five so I can create a natural 2v1 overlap. 

I think with the introduction of the new roles like IFB (or the improved positioning of the IWB), which are really cool, I feel like I have to use them to create the 3-2-5 or 2-3-5 attacking shape.

However, having FB's wide helps stretch a defence, they can also tuck in and form a back three or midfield three in certain phases/transitions. 

I tried this out in my recent game away to Roma with Atalanta, winning 3-1 and I'm now seriously considering adopting something like this long term. 

For example, here we have just scored, after our right full back (#5) joined the attack venturing into the box and played it back to the edge where Emerson played our striker in. But look at the 2-3 shape we have formed, with the #23 being our left back playing as a FB(S):

And now in this attack, for our second goal, there are three things I've highlighted. First, the pink lines show our rest defence, which the right FB(S) is helping us to form. You can then see the 'Crystal' as you called it (the blue lines) with our midfield trio. And lastly, the left FB(S) has advanced forward with the ball and created a 2v1 against Roma's wingback (yellow circle). 

Sorry for hijacking the thread, and the star of the show might well be the Enganche role, but it's the versatile fullback on support which has given me so much food for thought! 

Keep up the good work! 

Edited February 23 by Fantasista10

[korreynwa]

Matias Almeyda (River Plate legend and former Lazio and Inter player) is using kinda this formation and idea on his game. But he is using man-mark at his defensive part for AEK Athens. They was on the group of death in Europa League with European giants like Marseille,Ajax and Brighton and lost the third place on the last game. At the moment they are the double champions in Greece and currently sitting first place at +1 from PAOK and +3 from Panathinaikos that is coached by Galatasaray legend (Fatih Terim.
 You should look them up. They look really exciting and have the most xG and xP in Greece atm. 

[Wavelberry]

Okay, so I've gone for a more narrow formation with an AM and a Treq either side of the Engance and the RB as an IWB on support. Wondering what PIs if any I might need to give the CM and AM.

[Wavelberry]

58 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

Okay, so I've gone for a more narrow formation with an AM and a Treq either side of the Engance and the RB as an IWB on support. Wondering what PIs if any I might need to give the CM and AM.

This is what I've gone for thus far. Am not sure am getting the best out of my striker tho.

[RDF Tactics]

1 minute ago, Wavelberry said:

This is what I've gone for thus far. Am not sure am getting the best out of my striker tho.

I think you're on the right/better track than I was on.

So now I'm thinking of switching to a narrow 4231 as my Enganche is failing to put pressure on the opposition and can't tell if it's because he needs more support around him and/or an attacking duty helping with putting pressure on?

I am currently too easy to play through - closing that width between Wingers and Enganche may help the CM a lot more, too. It's currently the struggles I'm having. With a top side in their respective league like Rangers in SPL, it's fine as teams look to play direct anyway and won't play through me as much. Better when I played in certain other leagues, the so-called smaller sides weren't afraid to just play through me.

I also HATE the low ratings my Enganche gets for not assisting or scoring. He's the link! 

[Wavelberry]

1 minute ago, RDF Tactics said:

I think you're on the right/better track than I was on.

So now I'm thinking of switching to a narrow 4231 as my Enganche is failing to put pressure on the opposition and can't tell if it's because he needs more support around him and/or an attacking duty helping with putting pressure on?

I am currently too easy to play through - closing that width between Wingers and Enganche may help the CM a lot more, too. It's currently the struggles I'm having. With a top side in their respective league like Rangers in SPL, it's fine as teams look to play direct anyway and won't play through me as much. Better when I played in certain other leagues, the so-called smaller sides weren't afraid to just play through me.

I also HATE the low ratings my Enganche gets for not assisting or scoring. He's the link! 

Yeah, I actually took inspiration from the other thread where you was talking about defenders being too wide and marking wingers etc so the plan was to be more defensively compact yet play with an enganche coz I really wanna make the role work. I'm predicted lower mid in my league and doing okay and my striker hates me and is the only one decent enough to play atm so am struggling with that but I think it's working. Currently 1-0 against Truro in the 1st half and the AM 3 are running the show

[-Jef-]

4 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

I think you're on the right/better track than I was on.

So now I'm thinking of switching to a narrow 4231 as my Enganche is failing to put pressure on the opposition and can't tell if it's because he needs more support around him and/or an attacking duty helping with putting pressure on?

I am currently too easy to play through - closing that width between Wingers and Enganche may help the CM a lot more, too. It's currently the struggles I'm having. With a top side in their respective league like Rangers in SPL, it's fine as teams look to play direct anyway and won't play through me as much. Better when I played in certain other leagues, the so-called smaller sides weren't afraid to just play through me.

I also HATE the low ratings my Enganche gets for not assisting or scoring. He's the link! 

In any of the 433 variations (4231, 4411 etc) if the opponent is playing a holding defensive mid then Enganche is basically useless. I've found that I then have to play SV, BBM or CM-A to basically have 2-on-1 against the defensive mid to overload him. I've had some success with midfield trio of DM-S (hold position PI), SV-S and EG-S with IW-S on the side where SV is and IF-A on DM-S side if you get what am saying

 

Also, seems like a role that doesn't drop deep pairs nicely with EG.

 

Basically this

 

And TI

 

EG stats below

 

One issue I see the 'few progressive passes' but that may be because he is also dedicated set piece taker for everything.

edit - forgot to add that I am newly promoted and expected to avoid automatic relegation.

Edited February 27 by -Jef-

[poma]

I'm in desperate need of an 4-2-3-1 tactic for Chelsea in FM, can't get anything going.

Can't score, can't defend, players underperforming (yeah I know, like in real-life) but anyhow...

I start to believe it's hard-coded in FM24 not to get anything out of Chelsea  

[RDF Tactics]

2 hours ago, -Jef- said:

In any of the 433 variations (4231, 4411 etc) if the opponent is playing a holding defensive mid then Enganche is basically useless. I've found that I then have to play SV, BBM or CM-A to basically have 2-on-1 against the defensive mid to overload him. I've had some success with midfield trio of DM-S (hold position PI), SV-S and EG-S with IW-S on the side where SV is and IF-A on DM-S side if you get what am saying

 

Also, seems like a role that doesn't drop deep pairs nicely with EG.

 

Basically this

 

And TI

 

EG stats below

 

One issue I see the 'few progressive passes' but that may be because he is also dedicated set piece taker for everything.

edit - forgot to add that I am newly promoted and expected to avoid automatic relegation.

I tried to be too quirky with my formation. I was on a walk today I feel deep down I know I should drop my CM into DM and turn him into a SVa lol 

I too have found it nice (when your enganche does find the time and space) having off-the-ball runners from the left, right and centre of him. The fact he holds his position and doesn't dribble into different zones, he really wants his teammates to not operate in the same space.

So that said, I'm going to think about the defensive issues that may occur if I do have SS or AMa on either side of my Enganche to make sure nobody is operating same zone and also has runners. It's a risk but it would be the AMCL. AMCR and ST applying pressure and Enganche then covering behind

[RDF Tactics]

11 minutes ago, poma said:

I'm in desperate need of an 4-2-3-1 tactic for Chelsea in FM, can't get anything going.

Can't score, can't defend, players underperforming (yeah I know, like in real-life) but anyhow...

I start to believe it's hard-coded in FM24 not to get anything out of Chelsea  

 you made any signings or anything? You can post your team and current tactic if you'd like (or can always make a thread if you want to do either)

[poma]

18 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

 you made any signings or anything? You can post your team and current tactic if you'd like (or can always make a thread if you want to do either)

Haven't done anything, just "real-world" db at the start, no fancy database etc, tried 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 with one dm, 3-4-2-1 (5-2-2-1 in game)

Just simple Ti's, no Pi's and it sucks BIG-TIME 

Edited February 28 by poma

[wazzaflow10]

On 27/02/2024 at 11:07, poma said:

I'm in desperate need of an 4-2-3-1 tactic for Chelsea in FM, can't get anything going.

Can't score, can't defend, players underperforming (yeah I know, like in real-life) but anyhow...

I start to believe it's hard-coded in FM24 not to get anything out of Chelsea  

PIs:

LIF: Sit Narrower

AMC: Pass shorter, dribble less, roam, get further forward

DMCR: Dribble more, Shoot Less often

IFB (for James only): Dribble wide, Cross More Often, Cross from Deep

I'll often switch Sterling to the RW position and put someone slightly more creative in the IFs spot

Lukaku has scored 7 goals in 4 games for me with this tactic (3,2,0,2).

You should be able to switch this to the right side if you want/need. Kind of a waste using James as an IFB but Chilwell isn't as great as an IFB and the lack of left footed wingers kind of necessitates playing down the left flank this way. Putting a right footed winger out there isn't the end of the world though.

 

[poma]

On 29/02/2024 at 03:25, wazzaflow10 said:

PIs:

LIF: Sit Narrower

AMC: Pass shorter, dribble less, roam, get further forward

DMCR: Dribble more, Shoot Less often

IFB (for James only): Dribble wide, Cross More Often, Cross from Deep

I'll often switch Sterling to the RW position and put someone slightly more creative in the IFs spot

Lukaku has scored 7 goals in 4 games for me with this tactic (3,2,0,2).

You should be able to switch this to the right side if you want/need. Kind of a waste using James as an IFB but Chilwell isn't as great as an IFB and the lack of left footed wingers kind of necessitates playing down the left flank this way. Putting a right footed winger out there isn't the end of the world though.

 

Will try now after the patch/update 

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, poma said:

Will try now after the patch/update 

Other keys is making sure who ever is in the DLP and Left CB position are athletic enough to cover the hole created by Chilwell pushing forward. In an ideal world the LIF is more of a playmaker type player than Sterling. I often put him on the right.

If you're generating chances and not scoring try dropping the mentality, and upping the tempo and give balanced width.  Or if teams are really sitting back (i.e. playing a 3-4-2-1) you can push the DMs into an SV role and make it more like a 3-1-6.

[gabbfx]

could you share this tactic? looks great @RDF Tactics