Why do my players press CD's and even the GK when I tell them not too?

[Bahnzo]

Title.

I have OI's set to Never Press for the CD's and the GK, yet my forwards will press these players regardless. Is this a bug or am I doing it wrong?

[RDF Tactics]

possible to show your tactic? (even though if you have set OIs, it shouldn't happen but maybe we can find something influencing it).

[Bahnzo]

10 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

possible to show your tactic? (even though if you have set OIs, it shouldn't happen but maybe we can find something influencing it).

I don't think it matters really, any tactic I use, if I tell them to not press in the OI's they press. I generally leave my TI's pressing set to normal in the middle position and then use the PI's to tell individual players to press more/less based on how I want them to play. I usually have my forwards set to press as much as the PI allows, but IMO that still shouldn't have them pressing the CD and GK's when I have those set to Never. 

[Cloud9]

16 hours ago, Bahnzo said:

Is this a bug?

You need to stop asking "is the game broken?" and start asking "how do I pull this off in the match engine?" Until you change this mindset we really can't help you out on the forum.

33 minutes ago, Bahnzo said:

I don't think it matters really, any tactic I use

@RDF Tactics is correct here, the tactical setup matters a great deal in what you're experiencing. 

[Bahnzo]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

You need to stop asking "is the game broken?" and start asking "how do I pull this off in the match engine?" Until you change this mindset we really can't help you out on the forum.

@RDF Tactics is correct here, the tactical setup matters a great deal in what you're experiencing. 

I also asked "Am I doing this wrong". Seems to me you are reading into this what you want to read. I'll give you the same suggestion I gave someone else - if you don't like something someone posted, maybe just scroll right on by? Your post did nothing to answer the question posed, so what's your point? Just scroll on by and let it go, man. 

Edited February 24 by Bahnzo

[fc.cadoni]

Your formation and team instructions matter, it's not only OI. 

Edited February 24 by fc.cadoni

[Bahnzo]

1 hour ago, fc.cadoni said:

Your formation and team instructions matter, it's not only OI. 

4 hours ago, Bahnzo said:

I generally leave my TI's pressing set to normal in the middle position and then use the PI's to tell individual players to press more/less based on how I want them to play. I usually have my forwards set to press as much as the PI allows,

 

 

[Fox-7-]

You're right, tactics doesn't matter.

Only mentality, TIs, player role/duty, PIs should be involved in that...oh wait

Edited February 24 by Fox-7-

[herne79]

On 23/02/2024 at 05:48, Bahnzo said:

I have OI's set to Never Press for the CD's and the GK, yet my forwards will press these players regardless

 

10 hours ago, Bahnzo said:

I usually have my forwards set to press as much as the PI allows

This is probably your answer, although without any context of your tactical setup and players you use it’s impossible to be 100%.  

OI’s don’t overwrite other tactical instructions, it’s more of a cumulative effect.  So telling your players via OIs to not press but also telling them to press as much as possible with PIs is a) confusing and b) not telling them to not press.

We also need to take into account other factors which are missing such as the Mentality you use (which affects pressing); the roles and duties you give players (which affects pressing) and the player’s own attributes (which affects pressing).

So to answer your question imo it’s unlikely to be a bug and you’re doing something wrong.

[Bahnzo]

11 hours ago, herne79 said:

 

This is probably your answer, although without any context of your tactical setup and players you use it’s impossible to be 100%.  

OI’s don’t overwrite other tactical instructions, it’s more of a cumulative effect.  So telling your players via OIs to not press but also telling them to press as much as possible with PIs is a) confusing and b) not telling them to not press.

We also need to take into account other factors which are missing such as the Mentality you use (which affects pressing); the roles and duties you give players (which affects pressing) and the player’s own attributes (which affects pressing).

So to answer your question imo it’s unlikely to be a bug and you’re doing something wrong.

I play a 442 and I don't use PF's(which I could see being conflicting...maybe). Usually one AF and one DLF. These are the two who constantly ignore my OI's to never press the GK and CD's. I play a balanced mentality most times. 

Honestly, there shouldn't be any confusion here. I set the instructions on those players to Never Press. They should *never* be pressed. I don't know why there should or could be other reasons to ignore my instructions. Even with the forwards PI's set to a higher pressing mentality, they should still abide the OI to *never* press. I want them zinging around, pressing others, the DM's, the WB's the CM's, but *never* the CD or GK. 

So to answer my own question, it does seem to me this is a bug. Otherwise, why would you word that OI this way? Think of it another way - as a manager you are giving your instructions to your team before the match and you tell them 'Never press their CD's and their GK". And then your players just ignore you and do it anyways? You'd bench them, right? "I'm sorry boss, I know you told me to never press their CD or GK, but you want me to press a lot, so I pressed them anyways!". I mean, you wouldn't expect even your U19 players to be that stupid. 

 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Bahnzo said:

I set the instructions on those players to Never Press.

No, you haven’t. As said above, the effect is cumulative, it’s not overwritten.  The game could be clearer in that regard.  Also bear in mind that instructions are not actually instructions - they are tendencies.  Players are not robots and do not simply follow our “instructions” blindly.

As said, imo this isn’t a bug and you’ve come to the tactics forum asking for help.  So until you’ve exhausted all tactical options, stop thinking in terms of “bug” .

Edited February 24 by herne79

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, Bahnzo said:

I play a 442 and I don't use PF's(which I could see being conflicting...maybe). Usually one AF and one DLF. These are the two who constantly ignore my OI's to never press the GK and CD's. I play a balanced mentality most times. 

Honestly, there shouldn't be any confusion here. I set the instructions on those players to Never Press. They should *never* be pressed. I don't know why there should or could be other reasons to ignore my instructions. Even with the forwards PI's set to a higher pressing mentality, they should still abide the OI to *never* press. I want them zinging around, pressing others, the DM's, the WB's the CM's, but *never* the CD or GK. 

So to answer my own question, it does seem to me this is a bug. Otherwise, why would you word that OI this way? Think of it another way - as a manager you are giving your instructions to your team before the match and you tell them 'Never press their CD's and their GK". And then your players just ignore you and do it anyways? You'd bench them, right? "I'm sorry boss, I know you told me to never press their CD or GK, but you want me to press a lot, so I pressed them anyways!". I mean, you wouldn't expect even your U19 players to be that stupid. 

 

If you've compiled sufficient evidence that there is a bug in the match engine you can post it here instead: https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/

Edited February 24 by Cloud9

[Chiravilla]

Can you post a gif/animation with the situaion you're describing?

Is it pressing or maybe cutting the passing line (attempts)?

[Bahnzo]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

No, you haven’t. As said above, the effect is cumulative, it’s not overwritten.  The game could be clearer in that regard.  Also bear in mind that instructions are not actually instructions - they are tendencies.  Players are not robots and do not simply follow our “instructions” blindly.

As said, imo this isn’t a bug and you’ve come to the tactics forum asking for help.  So until you’ve exhausted all tactical options, stop thinking in terms of “bug” .

Maybe it could, but it does seem it's pretty clear with the wording it uses now. Never is a pretty definitive word. 

Of course players aren't robots to a certain extent, but in this case I would think, as I've mentioned, it should be pretty easy to think setting something to Never would mean Never. 

Even in a less extreme case than I'm talking about, where you would generally set your OI's for CD's to Always Press one and Never the other (as in a BPD you might want to press and not let them just pick easy passes), the players don't seem to follow your instructions. Last nite I tried setting this with Never Mark, along with also being sure to not set any tackling or foot OI's, just in case. And they still run straight at these guys when they have ball. I even tried setting my two ST's to man mark the opponents two DM's in the 4231 they played. They still would stray from their assignments to press the CD's with the ball. 

It very well might be due to other things. I'm using a high LOE, so that might influence it. But I'll remain steadfast in Never should mean Never. Not "Unless". 

Edited February 24 by Bahnzo

[Rashidi]

 

As some have stated instructions are a tendency to do something more or less of.  A players role could have an instruction that says “always stay back”, but that instruction might not kick in sometimes because of the overall tactical instructions you use or the mentality you are on.

It is one of the biggest issues in the game that the descriptors of the game themselves can be misleading and this in turn can lead to issues of misunderstanding through no fault of the novice player and it certainly annoying that one needs to turn to the forums or dig through threads to find a developer saying that instructions are a “tendency”.

This game is meant to simulate human behaviour which is why there will be times in the game a player will disregard your instructions, which is why you will get the response it is a “tendency” to follow an instruction.

This tendency is likely to happen more or less of the higher the mentality used. For example,  since a higher mentality also increases creative freedom. A players attributes say aggression and low teamwork can also influence behaviour.  Then we have team instructions, like the defensive line and the block used.  Any one of these can lead to players not following your instructions. 

In Football Manager there is no such thing as “Never” and “Always”. The sooner you come to terms with it the easier it will be to understand the game.

[Bahnzo]

39 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

This game is meant to simulate human behaviour which is why there will be times in the game a player will disregard your instructions, which is why you will get the response it is a “tendency” to follow an instruction.

That makes complete sense, as you would expect a player in real life to get excited or something and forget they were told to not press a certain player or position. But as a "oopps, sorry boss!" sort of thing and it doesn't happen very often. 

So let me put this to you and anyone else really. How would you set it then that a player is NEVER pressed (or at least as little as possible) without removing the mentality to press hard the other players/positions? Because it doesn't seem as if that's possible. 

The GK thing to me is also a big one, because I've had so many times where a GK has the ball from a back pass and a player (a winger it always seems) leaves their position to press the GK and in turn also leaves his defensive mark open which invariably leads to that player getting the pass from the GK and starting a counter.

[cocoadavid]

I think that in the current match engine it is not possible to tell your players to press everyone except the central defenders. The UI is misleading in this regard. On the PI panel, 'never' is actually  'less likely', and 'always' is actually 'more likely'.

I get why you are frustrated, because in real life, espacially in a 4-4-2 mid or low block, it is common that the players don't press the centre backs, but then press aggressively everybody else. Unfortunately, this can not be properly replicated in this FM.

[Cloud9]

9 hours ago, cocoadavid said:

I think that in the current match engine it is not possible to tell your players to press everyone except the central defenders. The UI is misleading in this regard. On the PI panel, 'never' is actually  'less likely', and 'always' is actually 'more likely'.

I get why you are frustrated, because in real life, espacially in a 4-4-2 mid or low block, it is common that the players don't press the centre backs, but then press aggressively everybody else. Unfortunately, this can not be properly replicated in this FM.

You can replicate these things, but if you tell your forwards to trigger press frequently they will. Similarly, if you're Tis are counter press, high mentality, trigger press more often, etc. you will also be telling your player's to behave like this more often.

I would recommend doing a doing a deep dive into the PIs OIs whenever you are looking to set up specific pressing traps w/a fairly blank slate of Tis. Mark tighter, show onto foot, and the trap inside/outside are other good methods of funneling opposition into a pressing trap. These approaches require specific attributes on player's to pull off and you have to keep in mind that your tactic operates as a whole (the Tis, PIs, and OIs do not overwrite each other as others have already stated above). 

How you specifically pull this off is dependent on your tactical setup. Anyone interested in making this work, and finding help from the community, will need to post their tactic in full. 

Edited February 25 by Cloud9

[Bahnzo]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

Tis, PIs, and OIs do not overwrite each other

They do. PI's take preference over TI's, as well as player traits will then take preference over PI's. 

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, Bahnzo said:

They do. 

This is incorrect and a core part of the trouble you're experiencing in setting up the press how you'd like to see it in game. 

While PIs may take priority, the Tis are still impactful, not overwritten. @herne79 has already taken the time to clarify this above and as I have just stated, the rest of the tactic is impactful as well (mentality etc.). 

Edited February 25 by Cloud9

[Bahnzo]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

This is incorrect and a core part of the trouble you're experiencing in setting up the press how you'd like to see it in game. 

While PIs may take priority, the Tis are still impactful, not overwritten. @herne79 has already taken the time to clarify this above and as I have just stated, the rest of the tactic is impactful as well (mentality etc.). 

Teamwork has something to do with it, but traits override PI's and TI's unless the teamwork att is high enough. From the manual: "It is also used to help decide whether or not a player opts to use one of their Player Traits ahead of a tactical instruction." You'll also notice it in the tactic if you set a PI that conflicts with the players trait. 

According to the manual for PI's: "Each instruction acts as a modifier to an instruction already set for the player by the role and duty assigned." So PI's are modifying everything else. They press more than the TI is set for, they pass more direct, etc. IE, they overwrite the TI. 


You told Cocadavid he was wrong, well let's see that. Create a 442 like he states that doesn't press the CD's. Prove him wrong, You say it can be replicated, let's see it. 

Edited February 25 by Bahnzo

[Cloud9]

22 minutes ago, Bahnzo said:

Teamwork has something to do with it, but traits override PI's and TI's unless the teamwork att is high enough. From the manual: "It is also used to help decide whether or not a player opts to use one of their Player Traits ahead of a tactical instruction." You'll also notice it in the tactic if you set a PI that conflicts with the players trait. 

According to the manual for PI's: "Each instruction acts as a modifier to an instruction already set for the player by the role and duty assigned." So PI's are modifying everything else. They press more than the TI is set for, they pass more direct, etc. IE, they overwrite the TI. 


You told Cocadavid he was wrong, well let's see that. Create a 442 like he states that doesn't press the CD's. Prove him wrong, You say it can be replicated, let's see it. 

We can't help you if you continue to insist you're doing it right while ignoring clarification when it's given. 

Again if you're actually interested in learning, the starting point is posting your tactic. Otherwise, good luck

Edited February 25 by Cloud9

[cocoadavid]

6 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

You can replicate these things, but if you tell your forwards to trigger press frequently they will. Similarly, if you're Tis are counter press, high mentality, trigger press more often, etc. you will also be telling your player's to behave like this more often.

I would recommend doing a doing a deep dive into the PIs OIs whenever you are looking to set up specific pressing traps w/a fairly blank slate of Tis. Mark tighter, show onto foot, and the trap inside/outside are other good methods of funneling opposition into a pressing trap. These approaches require specific attributes on player's to pull off and you have to keep in mind that your tactic operates as a whole (the Tis, PIs, and OIs do not overwrite each other as others have already stated above). 

How you specifically pull this off is dependent on your tactical setup. Anyone interested in making this work, and finding help from the community, will need to post their tactic in full. 

I've already done that in previous FMs:

But the ME has changed since, pressing and the 442 defensive shape does not work the same way like it did at the time of my writing. Back then I could replicate it more accurately.

 

 

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, cocoadavid said:

I've already done that in previous FMs:

But the ME has changed since, pressing and the 442 defensive shape does not work the same way like it did at the time of my writing. Back then I could replicate it more accurately.

 

 

What version of this setup are you running on fm24? 

I personally find defensive tactics easier to pull off compared to earlier versions after they did some reworks to mentality and fatigue a few years back.

That being said, Fm24 has thrown a bit of a spanner in the works w/ the positional play changes (the opposition has more tools to break down a block). I look to utilize traps much more this year, but in general I have to be a lot more proactive in my match to match tweaks with opposition frequently overloading the center of the pitch. In a 4-4-2, I've enjoyed frequently trapping outside (one of my go to formations on fm24). In short, this year is more punishing to defensive approaches that do not actively impact the opposition and that lack forcing elements to them. 

There have been match engine and role changes since FM21, but the big change to how I press has been orientated around the fatigue changes. If the system has fallen off over recent years that might be a good starting point to look.

Edited February 26 by Cloud9

[Bahnzo]

21 hours ago, cocoadavid said:

I've already done that in previous FMs:

But the ME has changed since, pressing and the 442 defensive shape does not work the same way like it did at the time of my writing. Back then I could replicate it more accurately.

 

 

Ahhh, I know this! I used some of this to come up with how I wanted to play the 442 I use now. And like you mention, use the ST's to mark the opponents DM/CM's. Which, as I've been saying, is tough as they stray to go press the CD's. 

The concepts I really took from your post was: 

• never tight mark or press opposition’s centre backs
• tigh mark opposition CM and DM
• always press opposition’s fullbacks and wide players

I do all those and wind up with a pretty solid defensive team. 

[Bahnzo]

Here's a perfect example of a GK being pressed, when set to Never. He's pressed by my winger (Lucas) which I have set to mark the WB (Gabric), although not "tightly". And Lucas' pressing is actually set to "Less Often". He completely breaks from his mark to press the GK, leaving his man unmarked which starts a counter. That shouldn't (IMO) happen. 

 

 

Edited February 27 by Bahnzo

[caco4003]

hace 11 horas, Bahnzo dijo:

Here's a perfect example of a GK being pressed, when set to Never. He's pressed by my ML (Lucas) which I have set to mark the WB (Gabric), although not "tightly". And Lucas' pressing is actually set to "Less Often". He completely breaks from his mark to press the GK, leaving his man unmarked which starts a counter. That shouldn't (IMO) happen. 

 

 

maybe its a dumb question but did you check prevent gk distribution maybe?