Check-up on my 4-4-2

[Ghost77]

Hi model citizens,

please, be so kind and take a look at my 4-4-2 system. I am preparing a new save with Notts County in League Two and wanted to make a balanced and reliable 4-4-2 tactic to cope well in very even competition, but haven't had enough time to test it properly yet. I would like to know if you at the first (or second) glance see anything wrong. What are possible shortcomings or errors I made. What would you personally change if it was your save.

Of course, anyone is free to reply, although I would deeply appreciate any input from @herne79, @crusadertsar and @Cloud9 who I suposse have some experience with 4-4-2.



This is the whole tactic with no further instructions. It's simple but I have put some thought in the roles. For specific matches I will probably slightly tweak some duties. Probably mainly the left winger (support/attack) and right full back (support/attack). The only PIs for now are related to WM on the right side (sit narrower, get further forward).

Thanks and cheers!

 

[herne79]

The best thing you can do is test it out and see how it plays.

At first glance it seems a little passive - no real runner from midfield and all 4 wide men on support, but test first before making changes .

[crusadertsar]

I agree with @herne79 you can't really see major issues with a good tactic until you play at least a half dozen competitive matches with it, both at home and away, and see how your players respond to it. The tactic might suit your team really well, or could be the opposite. You won't know until you try. I don't see any major faults with yours aside from it being a little too conservative in role and duty selection. But then I'm not familiar with Notts County team and their status in the league. Where does the media predict you will finish? If it's in the top 5 then I would definitely take more risks with roles or just general team mentality.

Edited February 21 by crusadertsar

[Ghost77]

31 minutes ago, herne79 said:

The best thing you can do is test it out and see how it plays.

At first glance it seems a little passive - no real runner from midfield and all 4 wide men on support, but test first before making changes .

Yes, I will test it as soon as my toddler allows me to  

Regarding the midfield, you are right. I was also thinking about DLP-S and SV-S combo. But my main player for SV role is good physically, not very good technically. I will check his work during the testing. 

Full backs need some work. I didn't want to have a wingback in 4-4-2, but I think I can use at least one of them with attack duty. Also the left winger could work well on attack. Will test it.

[Ghost77]

31 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I agree with @herne79 you can't really see major issues with a good tactic until you play at least a half dozen competitive matches with it, both at home and away, and see how your players respond to it. The tactic might suit your team really well, or could be the opposite. You won't know until you try. I don't see any major faults with aside from it being a little too conservative in role and duty selection. But then I'm not familiar with Notts County team and their status in the league. Where does the media predict you will finish? If it's in the top 5 then I would definitely take more risks with roles or just general team mentality.

Notts are predicted to finish in top 5, but on the other hand they are newly promoted team from the 5th tier. So there is a little inbalance  Of course not much money to bring in new key players. It's little bit inestimable.

But the team is half-decent generally and I agree I can be more risky with the duites/mentality. I just don't want to overdo it as balance is the key factor for me.

[bosque]

2 hours ago, Ghost77 said:

But my main player for SV role is good physically, not very good technically.

Good physicals are very useful for lower leagues. I would try it and see what happens

[HanziZoloman]

@Ghost77 I like the set up but the DLP just has one player to pass pinpoint passes to, the AF. I would add another one. He will link up play with the DLF who drops deep, the AF is a clear scorer up front maybe a poacher could do it more effectively. He can build a solid partnership with the WM(S) who offers support when pressed hard, he plays back forth and then a WB(A) pushes forward to receive a pass (?)
You‘ll need another one who‘s breaking through, maybe a W(A) or a WB(A) on the right side (?) the left side also could need some thread another W(A), IW(S/A) or a FB(A) depending on the players you have but it could also work with just the right side. 
 

Edited February 21 by HanziZoloman

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, Ghost77 said:

Yes, I will test it as soon as my toddler allows me to  

Regarding the midfield, you are right. I was also thinking about DLP-S and SV-S combo. But my main player for SV role is good physically, not very good technically. I will check his work during the testing. 

Full backs need some work. I didn't want to have a wingback in 4-4-2, but I think I can use at least one of them with attack duty. Also the left winger could work well on attack. Will test it.

I agree with what's been said above, a way to progress the ball from the defence/midfield would help.

On the SV, I wouldn't worry about the technicals too much. As long as he's got an engine and decent mentals he will make a great pairing with the DLP.

If you keep the static two lines (no attack roles etc.), I'd go with an attack duty TF up top instead of the DLF and hit crosses early in the tactic. This would be pretty route one stuff to the isolated striker partnership.

[Ghost77]

Thanks everybody for the input!

I worked many of the tips into my tactic and started testing. This is how my 4-4-2 looks now.

 

I changed to postiive mentality as balanced was not proactive enough.  I ditched the DLP in the central area and moved this role to the right side as it is harder for opposition to pick him up. Left winger is on attack to provide more layers of danger and SV in the central area is trying to connect the lines. DM is also quite handy in providing options for everybody. Changed my main scorer to poacher to be more selfish and less creative with his posititong (but AF isn't out of the game). I also implemented wingback on the right side to provide width when WP comes inside. I tried FB-A in this position, but he was leaving too much space behind. WB-S seems to be little bit more responsible.

Regarding the testing I won in all 6 pre-season friendlies including Everton (3:2). Until now tested the tactic in 7 competitive matches (league + cup) and I won everything except one, in which I conceded in the 2nd and 3rd minute (fast attack through my RB + corner) and couldn't score although my xG was twice as high as my opponent's.

Also my left back has a PI to cross from deep as he is one of the best crossers in the competition and could provide assists for my main scorer.


My only concerns:

WP position. I am thinking about putting him on attack as I want him little bit higher on average and also get into shooting range near the opposition area, but also provide some crosses from deeper or wider positions. Something similar to David Beckham at Man Utd. But I would say Becks was more of a support player. So I don't like the attack duty on him that much. Unfortunately with WP-S I can't give him PI to cross more or cross from deep and WM-S doesn't work that much similar to WP even with cut inside PI.

And the WB position. As I said in comparsion with FB-A he copes better with tracking back, but still isn't as responsible as I would like him to be. Most of the conceded goals in the testing matches came through him. I also tried WB-D, but he wasn't providing enough attacking width for WP. I would like him to be something like a decoy in the attacking half, but not bombing up at every opportunity. Yes, something like Gary Neville behind Becks. But I realise It must be really hardworking player with top notch stamina. 

 

Edited February 28 by Ghost77

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Ghost77 said:

My only concerns:

WP position. I am thinking about putting him on attack as I want him little bit higher on average and also get into shooting range near the opposition area, but also provide some crosses from deeper or wider positions. Something similar to David Beckham at Man Utd. But I would say Becks was more of a support player. So I don't like the attack duty on him that much. Unfortunately with WP-S I can't give him PI to cross more or cross from deep and WM-S doesn't work that much similar to WP even with cut inside PI.

And the WB position. As I said in comparsion with FB-A he copes better with tracking back, but still isn't as responsible as I would like him to be. Most of the conceded goals in the testing matches came through him. I also tried WB-D, but he wasn't providing enough attacking width for WP. I would like him to be something like a decoy in the attacking half, but not bombing up at every opportunity. Yes, something like Gary Neville behind Becks. But I realise It must be really hardworking player with top notch stamina. 

Something to consider - you are using Overlap Right.  This tells your WP to hold up the ball to wait for the WB to make his overlapping run.  This may be the root of your issues.  Try removing the instruction and see if your WPs (or WMs) does more of what you are after.  Personally I’d use a WMs or even a Winger (support) if you are after deeper/wider crosses along with someone who is actually good at crossing.  James Ward-Prowse has always been my go-to player for that, even though he isn’t a natural (or even accomplished) wide player.

Other than that I like the look of your set up much better now .

[HanziZoloman]

@Ghost77 I am no tactics expert but learning a lot at the moment. Check on the latest thread by @Rashidi here.

i‘d say that you are vulnerable when transitioning back into defence. You could easily have just the two CD covering. The FB(S) could be up front committed and the SV as well, the DM(S) could be too slow to track back (he really needs to be fast and high working in that setup), the WB(S) is up front for sure. Then it’s all open to pass into. You could try and play an IFB(D) behind the W(A) and an HB instead of the DM(S). He could drop into the position of the WB(S) or a DM(D) to hold position could do it. 
Up front you have a Poacher which is possibly better in a possession based shape and an AF could provide more in a mid-block, attacking the space more with his ability and working more compared to the poacher who is just sitting and waiting. 
With that in mind the WB(S) could be on (A) which gives you more punch in attacking the space in front of the mid block.

 

[Cloud9]

9 hours ago, Ghost77 said:

Thanks everybody for the input!

I worked many of the tips into my tactic and started testing. This is how my 4-4-2 looks now.

 

I changed to postiive mentality as balanced was not proactive enough.  I ditched the DLP in the central area and moved this role to the right side as it is harder for opposition to pick him up. Left winger is on attack to provide more layers of danger and SV in the central area is trying to connect the lines. DM is also quite handy in providing options for everybody. Changed my main scorer to poacher to be more selfish and less creative with his posititong (but AF isn't out of the game). I also implemented wingback on the right side to provide width when WP comes inside. I tried FB-A in this position, but he was leaving too much space behind. WB-S seems to be little bit more responsible.

Regarding the testing I won in all 6 pre-season friendlies including Everton (3:2). Until now tested the tactic in 7 competitive matches (league + cup) and I won everything except one, in which I conceded in the 2nd and 3rd minute (fast attack through my RB + corner) and couldn't score although my xG was twice as high as my opponent's.

Also my left back has a PI to cross from deep as he is one of the best crossers in the competition and could provide assists for my main scorer.


My only concerns:

WP position. I am thinking about putting him on attack as I want him little bit higher on average and also get into shooting range near the opposition area, but also provide some crosses from deeper or wider positions. Something similar to David Beckham at Man Utd. But I would say Becks was more of a support player. So I don't like the attack duty on him that much. Unfortunately with WP-S I can't give him PI to cross more or cross from deep and WM-S doesn't work that much similar to WP even with cut inside PI.

And the WB position. As I said in comparsion with FB-A he copes better with tracking back, but still isn't as responsible as I would like him to be. Most of the conceded goals in the testing matches came through him. I also tried WB-D, but he wasn't providing enough attacking width for WP. I would like him to be something like a decoy in the attacking half, but not bombing up at every opportunity. Yes, something like Gary Neville behind Becks. But I realise It must be really hardworking player with top notch stamina. 

 

If you're conceding goals off the right hand side:

• WM instead of a WP will give you a more structured role that won't cut inside. This is a good David Beckham like role as well I think  Even on attack, you'll be much more stable on that flank.
  • I really enjoyed the WP in my own save, but he was definitely less defensively responsible. I suppose it's a Koke-esque role from his early days at Atletico Madrid? You'd have to have the right player to make it worth the trade off. I got some really good combinations with the SV in my 4-4-2, but we did have a lot of high scoring games.
• Fullbacks will sit narrower than their wingback counterparts, so I prefer a FB(a) over a WB(s) for defensive solidity in a role looking to go forward as well. Both roles have their merits, but I'd consider the FB if you're looking to address goals conceded on that side. If you're happy w/the WB(s) the WM change should still do a lot to shore things up. If you end up keeping the WP, then the FB can be a good option. 
• DW on the left hand side could lean into your trap outside TI you've got going on.
  • I got plenty of attacking output out of mine, would recommend the role for a 4-4-2.

Since you're looking to counter attack w/out "pass into space" on, I'd consider going into the PIs and telling a couple of the talented player's to "take more risks" where they'll look to play your Winger/Poacher into space a bit more. 

I'd also try McGoldrick as a F9 and see how he pairs w/the SV and Poacher in those roles. The DLF suits his profile quite well, but I've always liked the dynamic movement, and particularly the deep dropping nature, of the F9, esp. when combined with the Poacher.

• If you end up keeping the WP, the link up play from the F9 could create an interesting connection there as well. These last changes would make you a little less route one and more fluid in your buildup (that's largely up to you regarding how you'd like to approach the game).

Edited February 28 by Cloud9

[Ghost77]

7 hours ago, herne79 said:

Something to consider - you are using Overlap Right.  This tells your WP to hold up the ball to wait for the WB to make his overlapping run.  This may be the root of your issues.  Try removing the instruction and see if your WPs (or WMs) does more of what you are after.  Personally I’d use a WMs or even a Winger (support) if you are after deeper/wider crosses along with someone who is actually good at crossing.  James Ward-Prowse has always been my go-to player for that, even though he isn’t a natural (or even accomplished) wide player.

Other than that I like the look of your set up much better now .

Thanks. I actually played little bit with the overlap instruction and left it there because of the idea that wingback is pushing my WP to the more central area. But I know it slows down tempo and maybe I am generally wrong. As far as I remember and studied Beckham movement he was going central very often and created plenty of shooting positions for himself, although of course when the time was right he was crossing roughly from the corner of penalty area (or deeper and little bit wider).  Here in the pic I try to ilustrate what I would like to achieve regarding the average position in attack and what are the average positions of the roles I tried. (WP-S is closest to my original idea of higher half-space position)



Btw. Dan Crowley from my Notts County squad is also central midfielder used on right, kind of similar type to James Ward-Prowse 

Edited February 28 by Ghost77

[Ghost77]

5 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

@Ghost77 I am no tactics expert but learning a lot at the moment. Check on the latest thread by @Rashidi here.

Cheers, I will definitely take a look at the Rashidi's thread  

 

 

[Ghost77]

53 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

If you're conceding goals off the right hand side:

• WM instead of a WP will give you a more structured role that won't cut inside. This is a good David Beckham like role as well I think  Even on attack, you'll be much more stable on that flank.
  • I really enjoyed the WP in my own save, but he was definitely less defensively responsible. I suppose it's a Koke-esque role from his early days at Atletico Madrid? You'd have to have the right player to make it worth the trade off.
• Fullbacks will sit narrower than their wingback counterparts, so I prefer a FB(a) over a WB(s) for defensive solidity. If you're happy WB(s) the WM change should still do a lot to shore things up
• DW on the left hand side could lean into your trap outside TI you've got going on.
  • I got plenty of attacking output out of mine, would recommend the role for a 4-4-2.

Since you're looking to counter attack w/out "pass into space" on, I'd consider going into the PIs and telling a couple of the talented player's to "take more risks" where they'll look to play your Winger/Poacher into space a bit more. 

I'd also try McGoldrick as a F9 and see how he pairs w/the SV and Poacher in those roles. The DLF suits his profile quite well, but I've always liked the dynamic movement on the F9, esp when combined with the Poacher. 

Thanks. I tried WM-S and he was definitely more responsible, but I also wanted kind of mix of central and wider movement from him. I would also say that David Beckham was WM-S, but in FM the role (at least in my save) is quite wide and deep. I comprehend classic Beckham movement much more aggressive and more central - mainly when Neville was going up and pushed him inside into the shooting or short crossing range near the corner of penalty area (let's say half-space).

This video could maybe better explain what I am trying to achieve:
 

I will definitely think about DW role on the left. That's really interesting idea 

Pass into space was one of the instructions I used in some of the testing matches, but I haven't seen much difference yet. Will have to take a further look to decide if I make it permanent.

And I am also curious about your tip with F9 role for McGoldrick. DLF-S is kind of my personal homage to my favourite player Dennis Bergkamp  But F9 could be interesting. McGoldrick is all over the place in some matches, but scored 5-6 goals and also provided 6-7 assists to Langstaff in the testing matches. He is also quite responsible defensively, intercepts a lot. Will try F9 for him if he is able to work like that in this role.
 

Edited February 28 by Ghost77

[Cloud9]

On 28/02/2024 at 14:27, Ghost77 said:

Thanks. I tried WM-S and he was definitely more responsible, but I also wanted kind of mix of central and wider movement from him. I would also say that David Beckham was WM-S, but in FM the role (at least in my save) is quite wide and deep. I comprehend classic Beckham movement much more aggressive and more central - mainly when Neville was going up and pushed him inside into the shooting or short crossing range near the corner of penalty area (let's say half-space).

This video could maybe better explain what I am trying to achieve:
 

I will definitely think about DW role on the left. That's really interesting idea 

Pass into space was one of the instructions I used in some of the testing matches, but I haven't seen much difference yet. Will have to take a further look to decide if I make it permanent.

And I am also curious about your tip with F9 role for McGoldrick. DLF-S is kind of my personal homage to my favourite player Dennis Bergkamp  But F9 could be interesting. McGoldrick is all over the place in some matches, but scored 5-6 goals and also provided 6-7 assists to Langstaff in the testing matches. He is also quite responsible defensively, intercepts a lot. Will try F9 for him if he is able to work like that in this role.
 

F9 and Poacher as a combo is rather similar to that of the F9 and the SS in that the movement helps to makes space for the spearheading striker and pulls defenders out of position. You do sacrifice some hold up play in favor of that movement. Again this mirrors Atletico's approach where Griezmann dropped deep in the 4-4-2 alongside a Poacher/PF profile.

I've been playing around with in cutting wide players in a 4-4-2 a bit in my own save (Wide playmakers and IW) and would recommend running a double WB(d) behind them for the structural support / crossing option. 

Edited March 4 by Cloud9

[The #9.5]

@Ghost77 

The 2nd version of your 4-4-2 is what I'd call the typical mid-2000s British 4-4-2 (with the exception of the WP role as back then teams typically paired a flair winger with more of a WM type on the other flank). Think about Ferguson's Man Utd as the best and most successful example of this: Giggs as the winger, Beckham (later Park) as the WM, Scholes as the B2B type of CM (before he aged and become more of a DLP), the Yorke-Cole pair (with the older Sheringham being a proper DLF/s) etc. 

I enjoyed that type of 4-4-2 but I much prefer the more modern 4-4-2 interpretation: which is more of a 4-2-2-2 with narrow/creative wingers and two attacking FWs split laterally and not vertically. Obviously, we can talk about the best examples of this being Pellegrini's Villarreal, then his Man City version, Simeone's Atleti (though they were way more direct in comparison), Conceicaio's Porto etc

What I like about the modern 4-4-2 is that it creates better pressing shape (which is why the older version of 4-4-2 vanished) as the teams generally morphs into more of 2-4-4 with both FWs being high and wide-ish into the channels means they could easily press (instead of one of them being deeper and centrally). In addition it accommodated the rise of attacking FBs and #10s who had to drop deeper/wider. 

Lately I've been playing exactly this type of more direct/pressing 4-4-2 with Porto in FM23 as their squad is very suited to this type of style (no surprise as they've been playing it under Concencaio for the past few years).