Basic Is Better 4-3-3 plus 4-2-3-1

[Maddux]

Hello my fellow Football Manager lovers.

 

My name is Maddux and today I won't share another tactics with you that re-creates the tactics of [insert FotM coach], or just claims to do, but my very basic 4-3-3 i'm develoing for a couple years. And in addition to that I will also share my 4-2-3-1, which is just the 4-3-3 but with minimal changes for situations in which you want that extra bit of offensive threat from a more advanced midfielder.

 

Everyone that isn't in the mood to read a big wall of text or is just like “give tactics PLZ!” can find the folder with both tactics here HERE.

 

 

Ok, let's take a look at the formations and team instructions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing special and nothing fancy except maybe for the very offensive CWB-At. But let's talk about why I picked which option and start with the team instructions.

 

Team Instructions

 

In Possession

 

Spoiler

I like to play out of defense instead of trying to many low risk, but also to often low reward, long balls forward. Or at least tell my players to try playing the ball out of defense. There can be situations in which you won't to use this TI such as when facing an opponent that uses a very high press or simply if your central defenders are really bad with the ball on their feet.

But in general i'm a fan of at least trying to play ball.

 

I'm normally using mixed crosses but I figured that whipped crosses work a bit better in FM 24. Some might prefer low crosses and they can be better if you have small but quick and agile strikers.

 

One important point to crack your opponents defence is getting your players to move, draw defenders out of their positions and by being more creative in finding solutions. So it's logical to allow your players to be more expressive.

 

It's easier to find pockets of space when playing with a wide formations but a wide formations obviously means that your players are further apart from each other. Which makes it harder for them to get a decent ball circulation going or playing one-twos and makes it harder to counter-press after you lost the ball.

 

You can play with a wider formation against defensive opponents but this is very situational, just like all the other Tis that I don't use in the base tactics. Yes, it can be very affective to focus playing down the flanks and use overlap. But in most cases just against back-3 formations that have one winger on each side or against a 4-4-2 diamond narrow formation.

Passing the ball into space can be effective if the strength of both teams is more equal or when you're the underdog. But in which spaces do you want to pass the ball if your opponent is parking the bus?

 

In Transition

 

 

Spoiler

Counter and counter-press because why not? This isn't a tactics inspired by Jose Mourinho's Inter Milan so of course we use counter-press. And you should just try to counter when you have the chance. The downsides in doing it are minimal.

 

I won't to limit my goalkeeper to much in his options but I have to limit his opportunities to do stupid things and compliment my approach to build from the back. So I give him 4 passing options, which makes it harder for the opponents to find the right pressing target and let my goalie decide how he wants to distribute the ball.

It was a bit better to tell him to roll the ball out in FM 23 but the goalkeeper AI has seen some improvement and we can go without the TI this year.

 

 

Defence

 

Spoiler

Of course I want to press but I won't my players to press all over the pitch like the do it at the Red Bull clubs. And I personally like a more compact midfield press more than the usual high press. Just because you have a bit more space to counter and play in when winning the ball in the mid third.

You can push higher when you're the clear favourite and/or the opponent is passing the ball around in his third to keep possession. Giving your players instruction on how to deal with crosses, if you have smaller central defenders for example, can be an option too. But again this is situational.

 

We're done with the team instructions and can move on to the player roles and instructions.

 

Central Defenders

 

Spoiler

Most optimal would be to play with a stopper + cover combination but who is doing this crap with individual player instructions and marking duties before each game anyway? I do but still prefer to play with both centre-backs on defend. You can go with stopper + cover if you want and if you do, I would recommend playing the left centre-back on stopper duty most of the time. Just because the CWB-At is pretty far forward and a CD-St on his side will provide a little bit more cover against long balls to this side after losing the ball.

Standard central-defenders instead of BPD because I prefer to play out of defence. And because many people that try my tactics don't use them with teams that just don't have players like Josko Gvardiol.

 

Full-Backs

 

Spoiler

Here I had to move away a bit from my “basic is better” approach to fix player movement, their general and relative positioning to their teammates a bit.

 

A FB-Su starts from a slightly deeper position than a WB-Su and goes forward a little bit later, which leads to a suboptimal positioning relative to the inside forward on his side. He isn't hitting crosses that often because his duty is more to cover the defensive flank and provide an passing outlet in midfield. But if he can hit a cross I want him to hit the ball in the box sooner.

 

Which I want from the CWB-At too. He is hitting crosses pretty often and have a huge impact on your offense if you have the right player. Experimenting with natural wingers that are just ok defensive-wise but have great offensive attributes is definitely an option here.

I've tried with the more basic WB-At here but had similar problems like with the FB-Su on the other side. He just isn't offensive enough for what I want from him. A CWB-At gets further forward earlier and will cut inside if the IF-Su drifts towards the sideline.

 

Useful PPMs:

• gets forward whenever possible

• runs with ball down left/right

• plays one-twos

• crosses early

• knocks ball past opponent

• tries killer balls often

• likes to switch ball to other flank

 

Central Midfield

 

Spoiler

Here I opted for the DM-De in both tactics because he is the most basic option. You can go with a DLP-De or even a Regista if you want to modify the tactics to a high-press approach but I don't like playmakers that much. At least not in tactics where I won't to play over a very specific player.

Using a DLP-De in the 4-3-3 can make sense because he is sitting central in front of the back-4 anyway and is used as the progressive option often. But he can attract the ball when a pass to the full-backs is the better option.

 

I want to keep it basic and the left offinsive half-space is already occupied by the IF-Su so a CM-Su is the logical option on the left. He can and push further up the pitch but will do it later when the IF-Su advanced into the box and both players won't share the same space.

It can be an option to change the CM-Su to a DLP-Su and I had great results with it in the past. This will focus the play more on the left side and complimenting it with the “focus playing down left” TI. You can exploit the left side pretty well, if you have the right players.

 

The CM-At was my go-to since i've started developing the tactics in 2018 or so but I had to give up on the role with FM 23. Since FM 23 the CM-At will first push up to the CAM position during early build-up and then drops back to provide a passing outlet, which makes him unavailable in buildup to often for my taste. It isn't that bad if you have a player with great mentals like off the ball and the “comes deep to get the ball” PPM but the average players psotitions himself to high during buildup.

A BBM-Su offers a similar movement when advancing into the final third but positions himself deeper during buildup.

 

In the 4-2-3-1 i've positioned the DM-De on the left side for a couple of reasons. First I wanted to incentivise the CM-Su to drop deeper in buildup and have 2 central passing options for the back-4. Furthermore the DM-De will cover the back of the CWB-At a bit better and offer a late and deeper passing option when the ball advanced in the final third.

 

Then we don't need the CM-Su to be on the left side and and incentivise the OM-Su more to move around and find open pockets of space.

A AP-Su would work in CAM too but I won't play to much trough the middle but keep the offensive play more versatile.

 

And I encourage the players to find open spaces by allowing them to roam from their positions and/or move into channels.

 

Useful PPMs:

 

• stays back at all times (DM only)

• tries killer balls often

• likes to switch ball to other flank

• dictates tempo

• comes deep to get ball

• plays one-twos

• moves into channels

 

Front-3

 

Spoiler

Let's start with the striker first.

I've needed a player that can spearhead the attack but also contributes better to the ball circulation in the final third with setting-up chances for his teammates. The advanced forward is to advanced and is, at least in this tactics and how I prefer to play, more an option when i'm the clear underdog. And a CF-At also acts a bit to much like a advanced forward for my taste. So the DLF-At was the best option for me.

He needs to roam to find spaces and that's why i'm allowing him to leave his position.

 

I want my wingers to cut inside and be additional goal-threats so inside forwards or inverted wingers are the way to go. Both roles are pretty much identical but inside forwards take more risks when passing, while I can tell my inverted wingers to cross more often and from deep. Which is an option against very defensive opponents. But in general I like the inside forward a bit better.

 

Both inside forwards are allowed to roam from their positions but i'm not telling the inside forward on the left to sit narrower. The CWB-At likes to stay wider, which often leads to a bad connection with the IF-Su on his side if I tell the IF to sit narrower.

Not telling the IF-Su to sit narrower also lets the IF to drift outside more often and leaves space for the CWB-At to cut inside. So we can see a position switch and movement that creates a nice little bit of chaos in the oposing defence.

 

Contrary to the tooltips it isn't better to let the inside forwards with their strong foot inside. FM 24 is a step back in some parts of player decision making and inside forwards prefer to use the outside foot when cutting inside and taking a shot. And if they like to shoot with the outside foot it's obviously better to play them with their strong foot outside.

It also leads to more crosses in the 5-yard-box instead of the typical inside forward movement where they cut in diagonally, stop, turn, take the ball on their strong foot and then pass the ball inside. Playing them with their strong foot outside makes play in the box a bit faster.

 

Useful PPMs

 

• moves into channels

• plays one-twos

• tries killer balls often (IF only)

• likes to switch ball to other flank (IF only)

• knocks ball past opponent

• runs with ball often

• shoots with power/places shots

• gets forward whenever possible

• likes to lob/round keeper (DLF only)

• likes to try to beat offside trap (DLF only)

 

 

That's it for today.

Feel free to ask questions or telling me if I forgot something.

FM 24 4-2-3-1 BIB v1.0.fmf

FM 24 4-3-3 BIB v1.0.fmf

Edited December 14, 2023 by Maddux
fixed tactics

[bosque]

Hi Maddux! Is great to have you here. I'm a big fan of your systems and its explanations. Hope you become more active because your knowledge is unvaluable. 

[Maddux]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb bosque:

Hi Maddux! Is great to have you here. I'm a big fan of your systems and its explanations. Hope you become more active because your knowledge is unvaluable. 

Thanks for the praise.

I'm always happy to help and give people a deeper understanding in how tactics in FM works.

[loisvale]

Interesting read. Always interested in how tactic creators adapt in game as I don’t like just leaving tactics as plug and play. Don’t believe any real managers do that. 
 

if reading correctly in summary with either tactic changes include;

- if you are being heavily pressed and other team is pushing up then remove play out of defence and add pass in to space. 
-if up against a 3 at the back system with single players on flank or a diamond type formation then consider increasing width, overlaps and focus on flanks. 
-no real changes to transition. Do you ever remove counter press?

- against weaker teams push up. Increase loe and def line?

-consider an AF when underdog and  there are options of DLP and Regista if pressing higher. 
 

-play IFs with their strong foot on outside. 
 

Thats what I’m reading. 
 

other questions~
 

-do you ever change mentality?

-what circumstances do you employ the 4321?

-If you are really trying to push for a goal do you do anything different?

-same question for really trying to soak up pressure and hit on the break?

- is the CWB attack because of a player you have. I presume you could mirror the tactic to suit stronger right wb and add variety?

-if down to ten men what changes do you make?

sorry for all the questions but am genuinely interested especially with tactics that have been developed over a number of years. 
Thanks for sharing. Happy to try when have more info.  

[Maddux]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb loisvale:

Interesting read. Always interested in how tactic creators adapt in game as I don’t like just leaving tactics as plug and play. Don’t believe any real managers do that. 
 

if reading correctly in summary with either tactic changes include;

- if you are being heavily pressed and other team is pushing up then remove play out of defence and add pass in to space. 
-if up against a 3 at the back system with single players on flank or a diamond type formation then consider increasing width, overlaps and focus on flanks. 
-no real changes to transition. Do you ever remove counter press?

- against weaker teams push up. Increase loe and def line?

-consider an AF when underdog and  there are options of DLP and Regista if pressing higher. 
 

-play IFs with their strong foot on outside. 
 

Thats what I’m reading. 
 

other questions~
 

-do you ever change mentality?

-what circumstances do you employ the 4321?

-If you are really trying to push for a goal do you do anything different?

-same question for really trying to soak up pressure and hit on the break?

- is the CWB attack because of a player you have. I presume you could mirror the tactic to suit stronger right wb and add variety?

-if down to ten men what changes do you make?

sorry for all the questions but am genuinely interested especially with tactics that have been developed over a number of years. 
Thanks for sharing. Happy to try when have more info.  

Don't feel sorry about asking questions. I wouldn't put so much work in this and my other guides but just post something short with download links somewhere else if i'm not interested in answering questions and help other users to understand tactics in FM

The answer to your first 6 questions is Yes. But i remove counter press when i have a good lead and want my players to just slowly play it out. Then i'm also do a couple more changes like press less often, slower tempo, time wasting etc.

The change in mentality is something i forgot but will add soon. I switch between balanced, positive and attacking depending on my teams strength relative to my opponent, the match state and if playing at home or away. My personal rule of thumb is underdog = balanced, equal = positive, favourite = attacking but it still depends. Starting with balanced mentality when playing an away game against an equal opponent is often better than positive. And of course you can't stick with balanced mentality when you need a goal.

I almost always use the 4231 when playing against a back-4 formation to have 4 players against the 3 centrebacks. Either i have an advantage inside because my opponents wingbacks are bound outside by my fullbacks or the wingbacks help inside and leave my fullbacks open. And i'm using it when i need a goal. The AM is starting from a higher position and is in the box earlier than the BBM, which can help scoring.

When pushing for a goal i mainly switch to attacking mentality, use early crosses and sometimes play faster. But also try to identify a weakness that i can exploit in my opponents defence.

I don't have that many problems soaking up pressure with the base tactics and i'm leading the league in xGA, FTPA, clean sheets etc in most of my saves. my opponents often have the ball in their own half with a high PPDA but struggle to find space in my half of the pitch.

Of course you can mirror the tactics when your right fullback is better than your left fullback and you should do that. Another thing that i forgot to mention but will add to the OP soon.

If being down to 10 i switch to a 4-3-2 with a flat midfield that looks like this

 

 

Just ignore the RMD and he is the 11th player. Effectively you're defending in a 442 flat because the fullback on the ball-near side will push forward and support the CM on his side, which can be forced more with individual marking instructions. The other 3 defenders then drift a bit to the ball-near side. This hasn't any negative effect on the coverage on the ball-far side because the fullback on that side is a dead player anyway and the whole defence can just drift back if the opponent is switching flanks.

Offensive wise you have good coverage on most parts of the pitch. The marauding left fullback will get support in the half-space by the BBM and there is a short link to play over on the right side with the deeper dropping DLF and the MEZ-At. It dosn't always work but it works more often than not and you can hit an attacking opponent pretty bad with counter attacks.

You'll need to play without counter press and maybe take the defence line and line of engagement back a bit to defend a bit deeper and tighter.

[Carrick16]

Hi there, FM noob here and I really like how this tactic played, however after a string of great results (I primarily use the 4-3-3) I've had a really bad month of results. I wanted to ask: 

- What changes should I make if I need a goal? 

- What changes should I make if I'm coming up against tough competition? 

My team is definitely good enough, but yeah I go from blowing teams away 6-0 to then drawing 1-1. Also, my strikers and wingers struggle to score alot of the time. 

[loisvale]

2 hours ago, Maddux said:

Don't feel sorry about asking questions. I wouldn't put so much work in this and my other guides but just post something short with download links somewhere else if i'm not interested in answering questions and help other users to understand tactics in FM

The answer to your first 6 questions is Yes. But i remove counter press when i have a good lead and want my players to just slowly play it out. Then i'm also do a couple more changes like press less often, slower tempo, time wasting etc.

The change in mentality is something i forgot but will add soon. I switch between balanced, positive and attacking depending on my teams strength relative to my opponent, the match state and if playing at home or away. My personal rule of thumb is underdog = balanced, equal = positive, favourite = attacking but it still depends. Starting with balanced mentality when playing an away game against an equal opponent is often better than positive. And of course you can't stick with balanced mentality when you need a goal.

I almost always use the 4231 when playing against a back-4 formation to have 4 players against the 3 centrebacks. Either i have an advantage inside because my opponents wingbacks are bound outside by my fullbacks or the wingbacks help inside and leave my fullbacks open. And i'm using it when i need a goal. The AM is starting from a higher position and is in the box earlier than the BBM, which can help scoring.

When pushing for a goal i mainly switch to attacking mentality, use early crosses and sometimes play faster. But also try to identify a weakness that i can exploit in my opponents defence.

I don't have that many problems soaking up pressure with the base tactics and i'm leading the league in xGA, FTPA, clean sheets etc in most of my saves. my opponents often have the ball in their own half with a high PPDA but struggle to find space in my half of the pitch.

Of course you can mirror the tactics when your right fullback is better than your left fullback and you should do that. Another thing that i forgot to mention but will add to the OP soon.

If being down to 10 i switch to a 4-3-2 with a flat midfield that looks like this

 

 

Just ignore the RMD and he is the 11th player. Effectively you're defending in a 442 flat because the fullback on the ball-near side will push forward and support the CM on his side, which can be forced more with individual marking instructions. The other 3 defenders then drift a bit to the ball-near side. This hasn't any negative effect on the coverage on the ball-far side because the fullback on that side is a dead player anyway and the whole defence can just drift back if the opponent is switching flanks.

Offensive wise you have good coverage on most parts of the pitch. The marauding left fullback will get support in the half-space by the BBM and there is a short link to play over on the right side with the deeper dropping DLF and the MEZ-At. It dosn't always work but it works more often than not and you can hit an attacking opponent pretty bad with counter attacks.

You'll need to play without counter press and maybe take the defence line and line of engagement back a bit to defend a bit deeper and tighter.

Thanks for the detailed reply. 
 

look forward to more updates on the OP. The more info around how to tinker for certain situations the more I learn. Don’t quite understand the point you make about use of 4231. Understand when trying to force things but are you suggesting to use against a back 3 or back 4 that’s not clear? 
 

thanks again look forward to using. 

keep up with the info it’s an interesting set up. 
 

 

[Maddux]

@Carrick16

Current form and the familarity, both with the tactics and between the players, are important. That's why i try to rotate as little as possible and manage the player fitness with proper training intensity and early subs. You can edit your squad in a way that you have 2 of the same players for each position. The first team players will become familiar with each other and once you swap to many of them with to many "backups" your team will start playing worse. Even the "backups" are identical to the first team players.

And in the end it's still football. I very low scoring game in which little details can decide between winning or losing. In basketball the better team will win in 95 out of 100 matches. In football just in 80% of the matches or even less. We call it "getting FMed" but the truth is that we're just getting footballed

And sometimes it's just bad match analysis. I always watch the game at least on extended and often on comprehensive highlights or full match. Especially when struggling to score you should watch the full match or on comprehensive highlights. The AI in FM 24 can be pretty decent in directing your players into spaces where they're less dangerous. Something you can see often is that the AI is blocking the middle and forcing the ball outside when the AI thinks that her defenders are superior in arial duels. Then you can try different things. Just floating the box with crosses, forcing the ball through the middle, run at defence... It's impossible to give a general advice because every opponent is different and your players are different too.

What to do when i really need a goal? Hit early crosses, switch to attacking mentality, push line of engagement and/or defensive line higher up to put more pressure on the opponents. And sometimes use more attacking roles. The tactics is build to very balanced and having good space coverage in offense and defence. But we all know from real football that you sometimes need to get more players in the final third and sacrifice defensive cover in return.

Changing the right fullback to attack too, changing the BBM to CM-At and/or the CM-Su to BBM/CM-A, giving the DM-De a more offensive role like Regista or BWM-De/Su... That i dislike these "just swarm the final third with 8 players"-tactics dosn't mean that there arend't times were you have to do it.

As the underdog i mostly switch to balanced mentality and sometimes defend a bit deeper with passes into space. It can help but won't guarantee you a win because we're still talking about football. The team with the better players will still win most of the time and you have to accept that even the best tactics won't give you an auto-win against PSG when managing Clermont.

 

@loisvale

I use the 4231 against all kind of formations but almost all the time when facing a back-3 and the reason for that is simple.

The lone striker and the 2 IF will be marked by the back-3 when playing the 433, the fullbacks will be covered by the wingbacks and the 2 CM will be covered by your opponents CMs/DMs. You'll need to find and create numerical advantages somewhere and to easiest way to do it is by getting one more player forward. The back-3 plus wingbacks can't cover the striker, 2 IF, the AM and both fullbacks if the opponent isn't using a 3-5-2 with DM + 2 CM. There will be a numerical advantage somewhere and you can exploit this advantage.

[TheMartello]

Just out of interest: there are some results with these?

Not expecting insane stuff, as that´s not the aim of your tactics/story. Just curious

[Maddux]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb TheMartello:

Just out of interest: there are some results with these?

Not expecting insane stuff, as that´s not the aim of your tactics/story. Just curious

The first 2 plus the current third season in my savegame with Eintracht Frankfurt.

 

 

 

[TheMartello]

38 minutes ago, Maddux said:

The first 2 plus the current third season in my savegame with Eintracht Frankfurt.

 

 

 

Thanks! 

Can you share your best eleven too?

[Maddux]

Not the best connections between players all over the pitch.

- sold Ansgar Knauff for 51m to Dortmund and his replacement Rico Lewis is injured. That's why backup Eric Dina Ebimbe has to play

- Facundo Torres went to Porto for 73m and his replacement Mikey Moore is on rotation with Joao Rego

- Hugo Larsson is injured and had to be replaced with Fares Chaibi, who is normally the backup for Oscar Gloukh

 

[bosque]

5 hours ago, Maddux said:

That's why i try to rotate as little as possible and manage the player fitness with proper training intensity and early subs.

I wonder if you can expand a bit more about this. Rotation and player fitness is something I want to have a better understanding but I got lost with so much information (hearts, injury risk, injury succeptibility, fatigue, match load, etc) I never know when is a good time to rest a player and when I'm resting him and he didn't need the rest.

[Maddux]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb bosque:

I wonder if you can expand a bit more about this. Rotation and player fitness is something I want to have a better understanding but I got lost with so much information (hearts, injury risk, injury succeptibility, fatigue, match load, etc) I never know when is a good time to rest a player and when I'm resting him and he didn't need the rest.

I don't think that i'm the one you want to ask about that because i'm just doing it by feels. There are many people that know way more about training and stuff than i do. It's a shot in the dark but i bet that Zealand made at least one good video about it that is backed with data from his testing group.

RDF is releasing training schedules every year and he probably had released guides about it too.

I know a lot about tactics but there are parts of the game of which i don't know more than the average user. And training is one of these parts.

[bosque]

3 minutes ago, Maddux said:

I don't think that i'm the one you want to ask about that because i'm just doing it by feels. There are many people that know way more about training and stuff than i do. It's a shot in the dark but i bet that Zealand made at least one good video about it that is backed with data from his testing group.

RDF is releasing training schedules every year and he probably had released guides about it too.

I know a lot about tactics but there are parts of the game of which i don't know more than the average user. And training is one of these parts.

Thanks for the answer but I'm talking more about when to rotate a player. Since you say yo try to rotate as little as possible. For example, do you field a player even if his green hart isn't full?

[Maddux]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb bosque:

Thanks for the answer but I'm talking more about when to rotate a player. Since you say yo try to rotate as little as possible. For example, do you field a player even if his green hart isn't full?

I don't start players that can't play for at least 60 minutes but the hearts are a bad indicator for that.

Hearts just indicate the general general conditions and don't take the players stamina and the positions he plays into consideration. Valentin Carboni for example has just 13 stamina but i can start him even if he has just a yellow heart, is tired and has a heavy match load. Just because he dosn't need to run and sprint a lot in the tactics. Oscar Gloukh has 16 stamina and i would never start him if he has a yellow heart because i would have to sub him out at minute 60 or earlier.

There are positions in the tactics where i have to sub players out before minute 75 if i want to start them 3 days later while other players can play 3 full english weeks in a row. Then you have to plan ahead and think about which players you want to start in which game, if none of them got injured. Or you can try to start your best players at 3 games within 7 days but have to use early subs.

It's impossible to give general advice because it's not just match load and hearts.

[bosque]

19 minutes ago, Maddux said:

I don't start players that can't play for at least 60 minutes but the hearts are a bad indicator for that.

Hearts just indicate the general general conditions and don't take the players stamina and the positions he plays into consideration. Valentin Carboni for example has just 13 stamina but i can start him even if he has just a yellow heart, is tired and has a heavy match load. Just because he dosn't need to run and sprint a lot in the tactics. Oscar Gloukh has 16 stamina and i would never start him if he has a yellow heart because i would have to sub him out at minute 60 or earlier.

There are positions in the tactics where i have to sub players out before minute 75 if i want to start them 3 days later while other players can play 3 full english weeks in a row. Then you have to plan ahead and think about which players you want to start in which game, if none of them got injured. Or you can try to start your best players at 3 games within 7 days but have to use early subs.

It's impossible to give general advice because it's not just match load and hearts.

Great explanation! It helps to give me context because I feel I rotate too much and unnecesarily

[MegaAlbin_88]

Looks like a fun tactic, gonna give it a go! A question about the inside forwards, do you mean to play a left footed 

on the left is better in this case or are i'm just misunderstanding you? 

[Maddux]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb MegaAlbin_88:

Looks like a fun tactic, gonna give it a go! A question about the inside forwards, do you mean to play a left footed 

on the left is better in this case or are i'm just misunderstanding you? 

That's exactly what i said.

The behaviour of inside forwards in FM 24 was a step back to the old times and they again shoot with the outside foot when coming at the goal from an angle instead of using the inside foot. And if the outside foot is the weak foot they will miss more shots. So it makes sense to play them with the strong foot outside and inthis also results in more low crosses in the six yard box from the inside forwards. Otherwise they will stop, turn and play a pass in the back of the box around the penalty point when playing with their strong foot inside.

[MegaAlbin_88]

31 minutes ago, Maddux said:

That's exactly what i said.

The behaviour of inside forwards in FM 24 was a step back to the old times and they again shoot with the outside foot when coming at the goal from an angle instead of using the inside foot. And if the outside foot is the weak foot they will miss more shots. So it makes sense to play them with the strong foot outside and inthis also results in more low crosses in the six yard box from the inside forwards. Otherwise they will stop, turn and play a pass in the back of the box around the penalty point when playing with their strong foot inside.

Big thanx for the answer, makes a lot of sense! Gonna give this a go and see how it plays out! 

[Bahnzo]

Nothing more than to just say thanks! I always appreciate people taking the time to explain their thinking. It's easy to put up something and call it good, it's another to actually take the time to answer questions and explain why it is. 
 

[Carrick16]

Any tips on how to get the strikers to score more? Mine are firing blanks 

[Carrick16]

On 12/12/2023 at 00:39, Maddux said:

That's exactly what i said.

The behaviour of inside forwards in FM 24 was a step back to the old times and they again shoot with the outside foot when coming at the goal from an angle instead of using the inside foot. And if the outside foot is the weak foot they will miss more shots. So it makes sense to play them with the strong foot outside and inthis also results in more low crosses in the six yard box from the inside forwards. Otherwise they will stop, turn and play a pass in the back of the box around the penalty point when playing with their strong foot inside.

Wow okay this made a big difference for me

[Maddux]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Carrick16:

Any tips on how to get the strikers to score more? Mine are firing blanks 

Do they miss to many shots or can't get into scoring position?

There are a coupls things you can do if creating chances is the problem:

- hit early crosses

- higher tempo

- a bit wider formation to create more space between defenders

- changing the IF to IW with cross more often and cross from deep for more risky but possibly more rewarding play in the final third

 

There isn't much you can do when your strikers just miss their chances. I have hot streaks where my strikers hit almost impossible first-time shots and cold streaks where they would miss an elephant in a hallway.

[Carrick16]

33 minutes ago, Maddux said:

Do they miss to many shots or can't get into scoring position?

There are a coupls things you can do if creating chances is the problem:

- hit early crosses

- higher tempo

- a bit wider formation to create more space between defenders

- changing the IF to IW with cross more often and cross from deep for more risky but possibly more rewarding play in the final third

 

There isn't much you can do when your strikers just miss their chances. I have hot streaks where my strikers hit almost impossible first-time shots and cold streaks where they would miss an elephant in a hallway.

More that they don't seem to get into the game at all, or get any chances. 

 

Thanks for the tips! I'll try this out. Really appreciate the tactic and your advice, I'm learning alot! 

[Maddux]

I've just seen that the striker in the 4-3-3 dosn't have the "roam from position" PI. Allowing the striker to roam and find spaces is crucial and that the PI was missing could've been a reason why some users sometimes had problems with scoring goals. I added the right tactics to the starting post for everyone new in this thread. Everyone just has to add the PI and nothing else has changed at the 4-3-3. The striker in the 4-2-3-1 already has the PI.

[duvels]

On 14/12/2023 at 20:22, Carrick16 said:

Any tips on how to get the strikers to score more? Mine are firing blanks 

Same here, even with the tweaks to get more balls into the box. I just feel the striker is ignored during the game. Often one of the CM's has the ball in the zone just outside the penalty area, but they either opt to shoot or they pass it wide to the fullbacks or wingers.

I do like the general setup of this. It's a nice realistic tactic.

[Maddux]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb duvels:

Same here, even with the tweaks to get more balls into the box. I just feel the striker is ignored during the game. Often one of the CM's has the ball in the zone just outside the penalty area, but they either opt to shoot or they pass it wide to the fullbacks or wingers.

I do like the general setup of this. It's a nice realistic tactic.

It isn't that the striker won't score in the tactics but he scores a lot less than in other tactics.

The most i've got from a central striker in a single league season were 25 goals with the average over multiple seasons and savegames being around 15 league goals. Far away from the usual tactics you can everywhere and far from my FM 23 asymmetrical 3-4-3 where the central striker averaged almost 40 league goals per season.

But these are acceptable numbers in this tactics because the central striker isn't the only goalscorer. I get combined 25+ goals from the offensive wingers, 5+ goals from the CWB and 10+ goals from central midfielders. Plus goals from set pieces. These numbers don't look crazy high but these are just average numbers with sub-top to mid table teams. Better players produce higher numbers.

 

[duvels]

8 hours ago, Maddux said:

It isn't that the striker won't score in the tactics but he scores a lot less than in other tactics.

The most i've got from a central striker in a single league season were 25 goals with the average over multiple seasons and savegames being around 15 league goals. Far away from the usual tactics you can everywhere and far from my FM 23 asymmetrical 3-4-3 where the central striker averaged almost 40 league goals per season.

But these are acceptable numbers in this tactics because the central striker isn't the only goalscorer. I get combined 25+ goals from the offensive wingers, 5+ goals from the CWB and 10+ goals from central midfielders. Plus goals from set pieces. These numbers don't look crazy high but these are just average numbers with sub-top to mid table teams. Better players produce higher numbers.

 

I have no problem with the striker not scoring 25+ goals every season. It's just that he isn't involved in build-up play either. I wonder if it even wouldn't be better to go strikerless and pull him to the AM strata as it feels like playing with only 10 all the time.

[Maddux]

Am 26.12.2023 um 09:50 schrieb duvels:

I have no problem with the striker not scoring 25+ goals every season. It's just that he isn't involved in build-up play either. I wonder if it even wouldn't be better to go strikerless and pull him to the AM strata as it feels like playing with only 10 all the time.

Do you want the striker to score a lot or to be heavily involved in buildup? Because having both is almost impossible. Or do you mean the transition from mid to final third when you're talking about buildup? Because that's something different and a striker can score well while also helping with transition the ball in the final third.

[nick1408]

Hi @Maddux - great basis for a 4-3-3 (I haven't tried the 4-2-3-1 yet).

 

I have a couple of queries. I think I am aware of most of the answers I just want to clear it up 100%:

1. Do you ever consider putting the wingers onto swap positions? I know you said the strong foot is outside but that way you would maintain the strong foot outside for the most part but also have the strong foot inside to change the attack up on occasion (I assume you don't).
2. I have assume the player at right MC is more attacking than the left MC due to the players you are using in each position and also that you have swapped the CM(a) for a BBM. Also, you said that the CM(s) could be a DLP so my assumption is the right is more attacking - is this correct?
3. Edit - is there ever a time you use floated crosses? I recently brought Joshua Zirkee but missed he has Plays with back to goal. I'm going to test out floating crosses so he can feed the IF's a bit more as I'm concerned with mixed crosses or anything else he will be facing the wrong way too often.

Edited January 3 by nick1408

[Maddux]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb nick1408:

Hi @Maddux - great basis for a 4-3-3 (I haven't tried the 4-2-3-1 yet).

 

I have a couple of queries. I think I am aware of most of the answers I just want to clear it up 100%:

1. Do you ever consider putting the wingers onto swap positions? I know you said the strong foot is outside but that way you would maintain the strong foot outside for the most part but also have the strong foot inside to change the attack up on occasion (I assume you don't).
2. I have assume the player at right MC is more attacking than the left MC due to the players you are using in each position and also that you have swapped the CM(a) for a BBM. Also, you said that the CM(s) could be a DLP so my assumption is the right is more attacking - is this correct?
3. Edit - is there ever a time you use floated crosses? I recently brought Joshua Zirkee but missed he has Plays with back to goal. I'm going to test out floating crosses so he can feed the IF's a bit more as I'm concerned with mixed crosses or anything else he will be facing the wrong way too often.

1.) i did in FM 23 where i played the wingers with their strong foot inside but swapped positions to get more crosses.

But i'm not doing it anymore in FM 24 because of the match engine and IFs mostly taking shots with the outside foot anyway. It just dosn't matter if the outside foot is the stronger or weaker one. So i prefer to play them with their strong foot outside because this way i'll get more crosses.

2.) yes, the right CM is the more offensive one.

The left winger on support duty is cutting inside earlier than the right winger and would occupy the left half-space at the same time with a more offensive left CM. This isn't a problem on the right side because the IF-At advances to the box when the CM advances in the right half-space.

3.) i'm using floated crosses just if i have a tall striker, which is rarelly the case. And even then it feels that whipped or mixed crosses are better.

[nick1408]

I know I need to make some changes to suit players and/or opposition but thought I'd post some results versus different formations over two seasons with Gladbach. I've left out cup games but added in Eurpoean matches.

 

Vs 4-4-2:

2 wins, 1 draw, 3 losses

Played this one mainly with the IFs but as it's two banks of four I probably need to rethink my tactics here.

 

Vs 4-3-3:

7 wins, 1 draw, 9 losses

Six losses in Europe including three versus PSG so the stats are a bit skewed here. In the league Augsburg and Freiburg were about the only teams to regulary play this formation. I mostly need to drop playing into space as these aren't the strongest teams in the league.

 

Vs 4-2-3-1:

11 wins, 3 draws, 3 loss

A very god record against a staple of the league. I seem to match up well here. IF tactic and drop playing into space aganst crap teams. Seems to work well.

 

Vs 4-2-2-2:

only three matches - 1 win, 2 losses. Not enough data on it's own

 

Vs 5-3-2 DM:

6 wins, 1 draw, 3 losses

Not a bad record here. I mainly switched to the IW version and dropped passing into space. With 3 at the back and 3 in the DM line I needed to retain possession. I also stuffed around with removing more expressive passing to help build up for good shots.

 

Vs 5-2-3 DM Wide:

2 wins - not enough data but it is a tactic that leaves a lot of space ot exploit

 

Vs 5-2-2-1:

9 wins, 4 draws, 6 losses

Not a bad record but need to make thoses losees into wins. Again used the IW version but I need to work out the best way to defend as only two of thoses losses I didn't score in. It is a tactic where I am outnumbered in midfield so may need to condsider a DLP in midfield or to concerntrate down the wings more to try and open up the middle?

 

I like the learning I am getting by playing this. I sort of wish it was on the main Tactics board so it could generate a bit more discussion as it does seem like a basis for a tactic rather than the finished product.

[Maddux]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb nick1408:

I know I need to make some changes to suit players and/or opposition but thought I'd post some results versus different formations over two seasons with Gladbach. I've left out cup games but added in Eurpoean matches.

 

Vs 4-4-2:

2 wins, 1 draw, 3 losses

Played this one mainly with the IFs but as it's two banks of four I probably need to rethink my tactics here.

 

Vs 4-3-3:

7 wins, 1 draw, 9 losses

Six losses in Europe including three versus PSG so the stats are a bit skewed here. In the league Augsburg and Freiburg were about the only teams to regulary play this formation. I mostly need to drop playing into space as these aren't the strongest teams in the league.

 

Vs 4-2-3-1:

11 wins, 3 draws, 3 loss

A very god record against a staple of the league. I seem to match up well here. IF tactic and drop playing into space aganst crap teams. Seems to work well.

 

Vs 4-2-2-2:

only three matches - 1 win, 2 losses. Not enough data on it's own

 

Vs 5-3-2 DM:

6 wins, 1 draw, 3 losses

Not a bad record here. I mainly switched to the IW version and dropped passing into space. With 3 at the back and 3 in the DM line I needed to retain possession. I also stuffed around with removing more expressive passing to help build up for good shots.

 

Vs 5-2-3 DM Wide:

2 wins - not enough data but it is a tactic that leaves a lot of space ot exploit

 

Vs 5-2-2-1:

9 wins, 4 draws, 6 losses

Not a bad record but need to make thoses losees into wins. Again used the IW version but I need to work out the best way to defend as only two of thoses losses I didn't score in. It is a tactic where I am outnumbered in midfield so may need to condsider a DLP in midfield or to concerntrate down the wings more to try and open up the middle?

 

I like the learning I am getting by playing this. I sort of wish it was on the main Tactics board so it could generate a bit more discussion as it does seem like a basis for a tactic rather than the finished product.

Thanks for posting your test results.

 

My tactics arend't finished products, at least not with the TIs. Many Tis are highly situational depending on your own players and your opponents tactics and i always put a lot of effort into explaining why i use things, why i don't use something and what you can change when. It isn't my goal to just give people something that they can copy and hopfeully will work most of the time but to educate them and help them to build there own tactics, Either from scratch or by adapting an existing tactics like mine.

Here is a tactics building guide that i wrote:

https://theffm.co.uk/t-for-tactics

[The Real Irvine]

Hi, I know this isn’t what your forum is for, but you seem very knowledgeable, I’d love to recreate that conte juventus midfield back with pogba, Vidal and pirlo, where they are constantly getting in chances for them to shoot and long shots too. I want to implement that midfield into a 433 instead of a 352, but I’m struggling to get them to get in the spaces for those long shots etc, not sure on the roles to do for this either, but I want them to be stand out. 

[Maddux]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb The Real Irvine:

Hi, I know this isn’t what your forum is for, but you seem very knowledgeable, I’d love to recreate that conte juventus midfield back with pogba, Vidal and pirlo, where they are constantly getting in chances for them to shoot and long shots too. I want to implement that midfield into a 433 instead of a 352, but I’m struggling to get them to get in the spaces for those long shots etc, not sure on the roles to do for this either, but I want them to be stand out. 

I don't know anything about Juve or how they play, so i can't tell you how to replicate their style of play.

In general how to get a lot of long shots in a 4-3-3? I think that it could work if you're using a more controlled approach with working the ball into box and playing back-passes in front of the box to your central midfielders. With that any vertical CM role should do the job. CM-A, BtB. Vertical Playmaker. But i don't how to to set it up tactics wise because i've never tried.

[nick1408]

I switched the IF’s to wingers with cut inside. Seems to have opened the middle of the field up for me. I also got an attacking player (your BBM role) with comes deep to get ball so switched to an attacking CM. The switch to winger on that side as a minimum has allowed the CM to be my second highest scorer and fourth overall in the Bundesliga. 
 

I am still having a bit of trouble with some formations but I’m working through that