Inside Forwards after Update

[Adelrahn]

I'm very dissapointed by the changes that where made to the inside forwards in the update from around 2 months ago. Before the update the inside forwards were staying wide until they got the ball. After the update they are already close to the penalty area even if my fullbacks or defenders still have the ball.

In my understanding, inside forwards should stay wide in build-up an then either cut inside with the ball when they receive the ball wide or cut inside when the ball gets into an area on the opposite side of the pitch when a cross-in is possible. But at the moment, they cut in to soon/stay too narrow.

I know this topic has been discussed a lot in the forum but i think the update was a step in the wrong direction.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Adelrahn

[Kate Edwards]

Hi! Thank you so much for your feedback on the game! So that we can take look into this, could you please provide us with a save file where this is happening in your game?

If needed, here is a link on how to upload a file.

 

[Adelrahn]

My wingers are number 9 and 36. Both are set as inside forwards. The width in the tactics screen is set to wide.

As you can see, they are not really giving widht. Even if set as wingers, they stay a little bit wider - bit not on the sideline. I understand that at some point all wingers should go inside but not when my defender has the ball. Before the update, the wingers actually stayes wide. They just went inside too late/not at all.

The save-game is uploaded to the CloudService with the following name: Winger_too_narrow.fms

 

[Marc Vaughan]

On 05/02/2023 at 12:56, Adelrahn said:

My wingers are number 9 and 36. Both are set as inside forwards. The width in the tactics screen is set to wide.

As you can see, they are not really giving widht. Even if set as wingers, they stay a little bit wider - bit not on the sideline. I understand that at some point all wingers should go inside but not when my defender has the ball. Before the update, the wingers actually stayes wide. They just went inside too late/not at all.

The save-game is uploaded to the CloudService with the following name: Winger_too_narrow.fms

Just to clarify - you have a player moving out of defense with the ball and you have the wide players set as 'inside forwards'  ?

From :https://soccerblade.com/inverted-winger-vs-inside-forward/
" An inside forward is a secondary attacker that plays off a lone striker. Most inside forwards play between the lines of strikers and wingers. They support lone strikers by making forward runs between the full-backs and center backs.
As an inside forward, the main objective is to score or assist, similarly to a winger. However the positioning is different in the sense that an inside forward leaves space near the sidelines. Rather than standing space on the flanks, an inside forward drags defenders and midfielders to central areas."

What I can see in that screenshot is that the inside forwards appear to be attempting to outpace and get goalside of their respective defenders, probably hoping for a through ball to be played in front of them .. that would enable them to get a shot in or lay the ball across to a forward so he can shoot ... in essence what is indicated is normal behavior for an inside forward?

(if you want the player to remain wide and act as a winger then I'd err suggest you set him to be a winger? - if you think the behavior is incorrect could you explain how you think an inside forward should behave and why the game is incorrect)

[Adelrahn]

What i want to achieve is that my wingers stay as wide as possible until they get the ball. Then they should wait for an underlap of the inverted wingbacks and cut inside with the ball in the space created by the run of the wingback. I want both wingers to be the widest players in the team.

If i use the 'winger' role then my wingers stay wide but almost never cut inside despite them having the 'cut inside' trait. If i use 'inside forward' they behave as you alrrady said - not fully wide and not only close to the middle. The 'inside winger' role doesn't work for the same reasons. And the 'advanced playmaker' again doesn't stay wide enough and does not cut inside constantly. I also tried to put my wingers one position further up and as 'advanced strikers' which works thr best but then the gaps between midfield and attack are to big and i loose control over my midfield. They also cross way too much - even more as when set to 'wingers'.

Example for the behaviour i would like to see is Riyad Mahrez. In build-up he stays wide on the sideline. Then gets the ball via a fast switch of play and cuts inside going into a 1v1 situation. If the ball is in the attacking third on the other side of the pitch he cuts inside to be there in case of a cross. 

Maybe its not a problem of the role and more a problem of the right set up to achieve what i want? Glad for any advice 🙂

[Marc Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, Adelrahn said:

Maybe its not a problem of the role and more a problem of the right set up to achieve what i want? Glad for any advice 🙂

I'll have a think about how I can enhance this for you - I presume you've already got the 'look for overlap' setting highlighted on the 'attacking' tab of tactics? (it might be that the match isn't taking that into consideration enough with regards to your wide players behavior, but I want to double check before wading into the AI code as its rather complex and makes my head hurt at times ).

[Adelrahn]

Yes, if have 'Look for Overlap' set and also 'Work into Box'. I also tried both 'offensive' and 'control' mentality and tactical freedom as 'Expressive'.

I think 'winger' is the most fitting role but the 'cut inside' player trade should have more influence. On a quick note i also tried players as inside forwards with the 'stays on the line' trait. But in the highlights it doesn't really make a difference from what i can tell.

Maybe use the 'inverted winger' role for what the 'inside forward' is currently responsible for and make the 'inside forward' a mixture between winger and 'inverted winger'. Or make the player traits have more influence on the players behaviour.

Also i was wondering if 'Look for Overlap' actually works with 'inverted wingbacks' because technically it is a underlap and not an overlap.

I hope you can figure something out without messing uo the code 😄

[StephenCronin]

On 14/02/2023 at 02:00, Adelrahn said:

I think 'winger' is the most fitting role but the 'cut inside' player trade should have more influence.

No!!!! Or if yes, then I want a way to tell my wingers "Listen, no more of this cutting inside business, stay wide like I told you to". I want my wingers to stay wide and cross, but there are almost no players with "hugs the line" and so so many with "cuts inside" that I have to use the "cuts inside" crew more often than not. Maybe that reflects the modern game, but if they start acting on that trait more than they currently do, then I want some way to retrain / talk them out of it.

[ak10njr]

I think that the Inside forwards rarely play in the half space. They usually just run wide with the ball. And the midfielders rarely play any through balls. I m just totally dissapointed with the tactical system this year. IFs are really a waste and strikers are not intelligent at all. They never make intelligent movement and usually just stay offside or stick too close to the opponent CBs. The midfield roles AP, RP dont support the wide players and move centrally behind the strikers leaving huge holes in the midfield. The other aspects of the game are really good. its just the tactical system that is disappointing. I really hope that u guys make some tweaks to the IFs role

[ElliottMS]

The key I think is to move the IFs into the forward line.

[ak10njr]

its not just the IFs. the strikers dont move around and link up play like they did in the last year's game. The PF and DLF have become fairly static roles in this version. Moving the IFs to the forward line may help to score some goals but it still doesnt fix their movement. I actually want to see the IFs move into the half spaces and combine with the WB and midfielder just like they do in real life. I m okay with the IFs scoring just 10 or 15 goals a season. 

[Marc Vaughan]

10 hours ago, ak10njr said:

its not just the IFs. the strikers dont move around and link up play like they did in the last year's game. The PF and DLF have become fairly static roles in this version. Moving the IFs to the forward line may help to score some goals but it still doesnt fix their movement. I actually want to see the IFs move into the half spaces and combine with the WB and midfielder just like they do in real life. I m okay with the IFs scoring just 10 or 15 goals a season. 

Out of interest what mentality are you using? - in the main when people mention lack of movement I've found they're using an attacking mentality which often leads to rushed attacks for impact rather than slow patient movement which you seem to want (if you use balanced/counter attackin or another more patient mentality you'll probably seem more movement in my experience).

[ak10njr]

I ve used all the mentalities in the game. mostly play in a control mentality. I actually want to see a PF and DLF drop deep or into the half spaces and link up with the wingers and midfielders. It worked last year but not at all working in this year's game. Also plz tweak the inside forwards so that they move into the half spaces. That is the most important tweak the game needs rn coz the 433 and 4231 doesnt work well like they did bfore

[Adelrahn]

On 13/02/2023 at 16:45, Marc Vaughan said:

I'll have a think about how I can enhance this for you - I presume you've already got the 'look for overlap' setting highlighted on the 'attacking' tab of tactics? (it might be that the match isn't taking that into consideration enough with regards to your wide players behavior, but I want to double check before wading into the AI code as its rather complex and makes my head hurt at times ).

Good day,

i was wondering if there is any news/development regarding this.

Thank you in advance.

[PAFC_Dugout]

Early days but I’ve noticed an improvement in terms of goals and assists from my IF since the winter update. Not quite numbers from FMM19-22 but I’m still happy with it

Edited March 13, 2023 by PAFC_Dugout

[Adelrahn]

A short update: After some testing i found out the 'inverted winger' player role suits the best for what i want to achieve (Mahrez-like winger behaviour means staying wide and only cut in upon receiving the ball). But two things that still bother me. 

1. Even if i set width to wide the 'inverted winger' still is to close to the center. As it is called imverted winger i would expect them to stay as wide as wingers.

2. My inverted fullbacks rarely underlap. Only if i set my tactic to offensive they get close to an area where they can underlap the winger but even then they dont do it. My wingbacks have good stats in teamwork and movement without the ball. I have tempo set to slow and looking for overlap.

I also was wondering about the player trait 'hugs line'. How can a player get this trait and would it help for my inverted wingers to stay wider?

 

[DW19]

On 16/03/2023 at 11:31, Adelrahn said:

A short update: After some testing i found out the 'inverted winger' player role suits the best for what i want to achieve (Mahrez-like winger behaviour means staying wide and only cut in upon receiving the ball). But two things that still bother me. 

1. Even if i set width to wide the 'inverted winger' still is to close to the center. As it is called imverted winger i would expect them to stay as wide as wingers.

2. My inverted fullbacks rarely underlap. Only if i set my tactic to offensive they get close to an area where they can underlap the winger but even then they dont do it. My wingbacks have good stats in teamwork and movement without the ball. I have tempo set to slow and looking for overlap.

I also was wondering about the player trait 'hugs line'. How can a player get this trait and would it help for my inverted wingers to stay wider?

 

This is more of a guess, but I would expect an inverted winger and and inverted wing back when playing together would try to occupy the same spaces. Maybe if they were super-smart they would interchange, but that wouldn't be my default expectation.

I haven't personally tried what you are suggesting, but I find that inverted wing-backs do underlap wingers and that wing-backs do overlap inverted wingers/IFs. I play a lot in lower leagues, so you may be using significantly more savvy players than what I have at my disposal.

[Adelrahn]

20 hours ago, DW19 said:

This is more of a guess, but I would expect an inverted winger and and inverted wing back when playing together would try to occupy the same spaces. Maybe if they were super-smart they would interchange, but that wouldn't be my default expectation.

I haven't personally tried what you are suggesting, but I find that inverted wing-backs do underlap wingers and that wing-backs do overlap inverted wingers/IFs. I play a lot in lower leagues, so you may be using significantly more savvy players than what I have at my disposal.

My problem is that i dont want to have classic wingers that dribble down the side to grt crosses in. I want my wingers to stay as wide as possible but then cut inside as soon as they get the ball. To create space for them to cut inside i need the wingbacks to underlap them. Thats the idea behind it.

Playing the inverted winger isn't really the solution for what i want to achieve however it is the best i came up with until now. The winger doesn't cut inside regulary, the inside forward and advanced playmaker stay too narrow to be underlaped so only the inverted winger is left. 

[DW19]

On 24/03/2023 at 08:31, Adelrahn said:

My problem is that i dont want to have classic wingers that dribble down the side to grt crosses in. I want my wingers to stay as wide as possible but then cut inside as soon as they get the ball. To create space for them to cut inside i need the wingbacks to underlap them. Thats the idea behind it.

Playing the inverted winger isn't really the solution for what i want to achieve however it is the best i came up with until now. The winger doesn't cut inside regulary, the inside forward and advanced playmaker stay too narrow to be underlaped so only the inverted winger is left. 

I agree with you that inverted winger seems to be the closest to what you want from your forward player.

I am confused about you wing backs. Are you wanting your wing backs to underlap or overlap? Should they go infield to combine with you inverted winger or do you want them to go outside your inverted winger to provide width when the IW cuts infield? I always thought inverted wingers acted a bit like central midfielders on offense, which is why I have never used them very much.

[Adelrahn]

My idea behind it is to build up in like a 3-2-5 or 2-3-5 shape. Both central midfielders stay back to help build-up and cover. The wingbacks should underlap the wingers to 1. Drag opponents into midfield to create space on the wings 2. Run into the channels between my opponents wingbacks and defenders 3. Create space for my wingers to cut inside with the ball. 

Because i have wingbacks with good movement off the ball and somewhat good shooting, wingers with good dribbling and a striker thats bad in the air but fast and intelligent i dont want classic overlaping wingbacks that cross and instead want to keep the ball on the ground.

Apart from the 'winger' problem the other thing that bothers me is the fact that i have to play the midfielder in a DM position which creates a huge gap between midfield and forwards. The reason is that the inverted wingbacks only invert if no player occupies the position where he would invert in. Putting the 2 midfields in central midfield (CM) and i have the inv. wingbacks in the last defensiv line they fill the gap between midfield and defence. If i put them one row further they dont cut in at all because they would invert into an already occupied position. Because i cant put the wingbacks one more position up because then i dont have the player role anymore i have to drag my midfield back. And then i cant press properly and cant keep the ball in midfield.