Staff tactical style changes

[craiigman]

I have been watching this great series on Youtube: 

And have decided to give it a go on FM22, as I haven't got FM23 yet, however this series has legit made me want to grab it. However when setting this up on FM22 I am running into a common issue, the assistant manager's tactical style is changing.

First time: Ass man is already at the club, was the last ass man. He has good "manager" attributes and style is wing play, which I am ok with at this level. After a couple of friendlies I go and check again and its now "control possession" but the same formations. Part of this save is to have a tactic setup with the preferred style so training updates.

So I fire him as control possession at this level is not going to work. I find someone with fluid counter attack, sign him. Upon signing he now prefers route one. I can get away with route one at this level and have players for it, so it's ok, but it's not what I signed him for.

Just wondering why this is happening? With the new manager it could have been that we didnt have enough knowledge on him? But I cant work out why the original assman would change. 

I can use the IGE to look at their hidden stats, is there info/a guide that break down how they translate into the tactical styles?

Edited December 18, 2022 by craiigman

[craiigman]

And now the new assman is also "control possession"..

[craiigman]

New assman: vertical tikitaka before signing, now fluid counter attack after signing.

Edited December 18, 2022 by craiigman

[craiigman]

Head of youth development is control possession, think that has anything to do with it?

[craiigman]

I hired a new head of youth development that was gegenpress and he is now control possession. What is going on with this game.

[craiigman]

@herne79 @FrazT @Jack Joyce Sorry to summon you all, I have searched and found you have all replied in previous threads about staff tactical styles in the past. I am now on FM23 and wanting a bit more info on this if/where possible please.

I have the in game editor, and changing some of the hidden attributes does indeed change the tactical style, mentality, pressing style, passing style etc, and can obviously change the preferred formation. Ideally I don't want to be using the in game editor to change these, however if the same persists in FM23 where the staff changes upon signing them I may have to.

Is there an explanation on which attributes affect this at all? Because it doesn't seem to be as simple as it should be. eg I have managed to get a staff member to have "fluid counter attack" however playing/passing is at long, when the default tactic for that preset is shorter passing. It's also set at the highest defensive line and the tactic uses a lower line. If I reduce the directness, it turned into "direct counter attack" which doesn't make sense, but it could well be linked to other attributes and the formation may even play into this.

However for a save like this where the style/formation is important, these subtle differences make a difference. It surely also effects the formations and style of play the AI plays?

I know generally the behind the curtain attributes aren't explained too in depth, but can I maybe get something generic that can help with this?

There also seem to be some staff with no tactical style, even as a manager, eg:

Edited January 14, 2023 by craiigman

[craiigman]

Gegenpress, but also less often pressing, long passing/playing style?

 

[craiigman]

My own manager's style has defaulted to "park the bus" even though I didn't pick a style and the hidden attributes are all set down the middle

[phnompenhandy]

I think you've hit on an important issue. You mean even if you use the IGE to set the preferred formation it changes, or just the playing style? There are other hidden attributes that I don't look at or understand, but experimenting with changing those might produce desired outcomes.

 

By the way, I follow that series avidly. I always do Youth-Only Academy Intake careers, but I like to follow other ways of playing the game.

[HurkaDurk69]

The editor hideaway might help, atleast a little.

 

But just like you I am confused by the managerial hidden attributes and how they translate to styles

[Hovis Dexter]

AFAIK virtually all the hidden attributes for human managers default to 10.

[phnompenhandy]

5 minutes ago, Hovis Dexter said:

AFAIK virtually all the hidden attributes for human managers default to 10.

In the video guy's save he's hit on this great innovation of the human manager being Director of Football and deputing his assistant manager to actually manage the club - control the matches, training etc. The human DoF just deals with transfers and contracts.

[JamieTC13]

I'm so glad you have raised this as i also said something about this, to be told there is nothing wrong. There Clearly is something up

I attached my screenshot

 

[craiigman]

15 hours ago, JamieTC13 said:

I'm so glad you have raised this as i also said something about this, to be told there is nothing wrong. There Clearly is something up

I attached my screenshot

 

Something definitely wrong here. I just watched back the video in the original linked series signs Ben Watson. Before signing him, fluid counter attack

After signing him, route one:

I just signed him on my test save he was fluid counter attack before, like the above, but upon signing him he's now "wing play".

[Jack Joyce]

The AI manager 'playing style' is an approximation based on their tactical data. Essentially what happens is the game plays a 'dummy match' and compares the tactic the AI manager would play to the tactical templates to find the closest match.

We do this approximation because in actuality, the AI managers don't use style templates at all.

The key things that will dictate how your manager plays are:

• Tactical attributes - directness, pressing, attacking etc.
• Tactical non-player tendencies - play out of defence, works ball into box etc.

If your manager is changing style when you sign them, I'd check if any of these attributes are changing before/after you sign them (off the top of my head, I think there's a concept of staff gravitating towards your own playing style over time which would adjust these).

However, based on some of your screenshots the approximation system definitely could be improved and I'd suggest raising a bug in the gameplay bugs forums in situations where the label clearly doesn't make sense e.g. route one with lower directness, or gegenpress with lower pressing.

[craiigman]

2 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

The AI manager 'playing style' is an approximation based on their tactical data. Essentially what happens is the game plays a 'dummy match' and compares the tactic the AI manager would play to the tactical templates to find the closest match.

We do this approximation because in actuality, the AI managers don't use style templates at all.

The key things that will dictate how your manager plays are:

• Tactical attributes - directness, pressing, attacking etc.
• Tactical non-player tendencies - play out of defence, works ball into box etc.

If your manager is changing style when you sign them, I'd check if any of these attributes are changing before/after you sign them (off the top of my head, I think there's a concept of staff gravitating towards your own playing style over time which would adjust these).

However, based on some of your screenshots the approximation system definitely could be improved and I'd suggest raising a bug in the gameplay bugs forums in situations where the label clearly doesn't make sense e.g. route one with lower directness, or gegenpress with lower pressing.

Thank you for replying. I think I will raise a bug report as there does seem to be some conflicting. In regards to tendencies I don't believe this is something that can be changed by the in game editor.

I also just done a test/check with Ben Watson again, his attributes do not change from before and after signing him, just from fluid counter attack to wing play.

What happens with managers that don't have any tendencies in game? Do they gain them as the save goes on?

[Jack Joyce]

1 hour ago, craiigman said:

Thank you for replying. I think I will raise a bug report as there does seem to be some conflicting. In regards to tendencies I don't believe this is something that can be changed by the in game editor.

I also just done a test/check with Ben Watson again, his attributes do not change from before and after signing him, just from fluid counter attack to wing play.

What happens with managers that don't have any tendencies in game? Do they gain them as the save goes on?

Hm, if the attributes aren't changing then I'm not sure why the style would change. Seems like a potential bug as well.

Managers without tendencies in game have fall-back calculations to work out whether they should use those instructions e.g. If a manager has low directness, then they're more likely to use play out of defence even if they don't have the NPT set.

I would suggest if you want to control how a manager plays, then using the IGE to change their attributes such as directness, pressing, attacking should do the trick, regardless of what the style string is telling you.

NPTs and preferred roles are the other big factors, which you may be able to edit in the pre-game editor but I'm not 100% sure on that.

[dzek]

@Jack Joyce can you clarify us what each Tactical Attribute actually means in terms of Team Instructions?