Crowds/attendances

[Bielsa1975]

Anybody know how the game works it out etc? Currently managing Skegness town ,now playing in NLN,

Population is 30000 then add surrounding areas so around 45000 , my average crowd is 289 with 119 season ticket holders ,when i started in counties league crowds where average 108 with 71 season tickets , now i have some big clubs with larger away followings, which has bumped up crowds ,FA cup games crowds touch a 1000 even against teams in league below , so why arent people coming through the gates surely 2 leagues away from league football , doing well last few seasons crowds would be coming in .

[XaW]

It's based on several factors as far as I know, but the biggest driver is your clubs reputation, IE the stars for your club. Those give you an indication of how popular your team is. Of course, winning is the best way to get in attendances. Promotions, cup wins (or just going further than expected), and in general winning matches will see this increase, albeit slowly. In some cases, I'd even say the game is a bit too slow to catch up, especially if you have a few successive promotion for example. However, it will always increase if you are doing well. The other factors that impact is for example the location of the city in terms of other cities, size is also a key figure.

[Nacaw]

%-wise your increase in attendance has been amazing already. I suspect that at least part of the formular is capped to keep increases below a certain percentage. 

300 for NLN is low, but is it really unrealistic low for a team that has spent decades below level 10? What have other teams coming from a similar background and area averaged? Many of the conference teams pulling "big" attendance numbers have a completely different history and infrastructure. Even Salford City, in a much bigger area but similar without much history, aren't getting good attendance numbers in League 2, after years of being in level 4, 5 or 6. 

[Garethjohn79]

Does the game replicate cities that just don't care about football? You can put billionaires and world-famous directors into (Salford City) clubs to gain league football, even in large cities the fans won't always turn up even when they are one of the cheapest around. 

[rusty217]

4 hours ago, Garethjohn79 said:

Does the game replicate cities that just don't care about football? You can put billionaires and world-famous directors into (Salford City) clubs to gain league football, even in large cities the fans won't always turn up even when they are one of the cheapest around. 

Why don't they care about football though? The lack of success is certainly a strong possibility. Change that and it's certainly possible that the city would start to care about football.

Also, Salford doesn't really seem like a great example. Do they really not care about football because they don't go to watch Salford City play? Or do people not watch Salford City because they watch the Manchester clubs instead? IIRC Manchester United are about as close to Salford as they are to Manchester proper, seems likely a lot of Salford residents would be Man Utd fans.

[Garethjohn79]

1 hour ago, rusty217 said:

Why don't they care about football though? The lack of success is certainly a strong possibility. Change that and it's certainly possible that the city would start to care about football.

Also, Salford doesn't really seem like a great example. Do they really not care about football because they don't go to watch Salford City play? Or do people not watch Salford City because they watch the Manchester clubs instead? IIRC Manchester United are about as close to Salford as they are to Manchester proper, seems likely a lot of Salford residents would be Man Utd fans.

Lack of success, they've gone from obscure non-league into the football league for the first time in their history.

Salfords in the second/third City of the country, few can get into Old Trafford outside a season ticket holder or a membership, you'd think Salford were and are chasing this market, The Nevilles, Beckham, Scholes and Giggs are as high a profile hands on directors you'd see for a club based in Greater Manchester, that alone you'd have thought would pull in a fair few United fans their still isn't that many on days United aren't playing. Forget Cty fans the United connections isn't going to entice them and they go to Stockport County when City are away.

They are also a lot cheaper than most league clubs and a fair few level 5 & 6, so in a Northwest city that loves football they appear to be in a black spot

So it's got the progression and population that FM likes to add to increases a fan base in the game likes to but in reality, it's not happening 2,000 average attendances, even last place average attendance in L2 Harrogate get a good crowd during the international break as a result of Leeds being off. I've been to both grounds during the breaks at the same time of the season, both have risen at similar rates without any league history.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Garethjohn79

[rusty217]

14 minutes ago, Garethjohn79 said:

Lack of success, they've gone from obscure non-league into the football league for the first time in their history.

Salfords in the second/third City of the country, few can get into Old Trafford outside a season ticket holder or a membership, you'd think Salford were and are chasing this market, The Nevilles, Beckham, Scholes and Giggs are as high a profile hands on directors you'd see for a club based in Greater Manchester, that alone you'd have thought would pull in a fair few United fans their still isn't that many on days United aren't playing. Forget Cty fans the United connections isn't going to entice them and they go to Stockport County when City are away.

They are also a lot cheaper than most league clubs and a fair few level 5 & 6, so in a Northwest city that loves football they appear to be in a black spot

So it's got the progression and population that FM likes to add to increases a fan base in the game likes to but in reality, it's not happening 2,000 average attendances, even last place average attendance in L2 Harrogate get a good crowd during the international break as a result of Leeds being off. I've been to both grounds during the breaks at the same time of the season, both have risen at similar rates without any league history.

I was talking more generally, eg. Berlin where Hertha have always had relatively low attendance figures given the size of their stadium (45k-50k is pretty good, but not so much when your stadium holds 75k and multiple teams in the league are able to fill stadiums that size). That's probably due to Hertha's lack of success.

My point remains though, there's no evidence that Salford doesn't care about football. Just that they don't care about Salford City. That's pretty normal when you have a massively more succesful (2 in fact) team right next door. It's a bit like saying people in Alcorcon don't care about football because only about 1500-2500 people turn up to watch AD Alcorcon play every week (Alcorcon are more successful than Salford and more people live in Alcorcon than Salford), when the reality is the people living there probably just watch Real/Atletico instead.

[FrazT]

As has been said above, attendances are determined by team reputation, catchment area, proximity of other teams with larger support/reputation and playing success.

As far as I can see from the web, Skegness this season has an average attendance of 90 with a top attendance of 220, so it is clearly starting off from a pretty low point and it will certainly take a while for attendances to grow a lot even with a successful team

[Garethjohn79]

19 hours ago, rusty217 said:

I was talking more generally, eg. Berlin where Hertha have always had relatively low attendance figures given the size of their stadium (45k-50k is pretty good, but not so much when your stadium holds 75k and multiple teams in the league are able to fill stadiums that size). That's probably due to Hertha's lack of success.

My point remains though, there's no evidence that Salford doesn't care about football. Just that they don't care about Salford City. That's pretty normal when you have a massively more succesful (2 in fact) team right next door. It's a bit like saying people in Alcorcon don't care about football because only about 1500-2500 people turn up to watch AD Alcorcon play every week (Alcorcon are more successful than Salford and more people live in Alcorcon than Salford), when the reality is the people living there probably just watch Real/Atletico instead.

Have you been to any of those or visited the area? Salford's lack of support shows that those living there have little interest in football or they'd have been going for years already and an area of its size within the city of the size of Manchester I'm pretty sure they could attract support a 3-4,000 plus at their level like Stockport, Rochdale and Bury have/had.

They've turned a club with a board of directors with a profile and finance with one of the biggest profiles and reputation in the history of the Premier League era, the fans still aren't turning up, what more proof do you need? Visit the ground, until you're right on top of it you'd hardly know anything was there even on matchday. 

Wrexham's crowd can be three times that of Salford's and their new owners are only film stars known to kids, not local stars part of the most successful side the countries ever seen. 

The UK's not like Spain where people turn up to watch successful clubs and disappear when they lose here, they attend their hometown clubs if that area loves football (which greater Manchester does) then they stay, Salford is the bit of the Greater Manchester Area that doesn't love its club.

[rusty217]

7 hours ago, Garethjohn79 said:

Have you been to any of those or visited the area? Salford's lack of support shows that those living there have little interest in football or they'd have been going for years already and an area of its size within the city of the size of Manchester I'm pretty sure they could attract support a 3-4,000 plus at their level like Stockport, Rochdale and Bury have/had.

They've turned a club with a board of directors with a profile and finance with one of the biggest profiles and reputation in the history of the Premier League era, the fans still aren't turning up, what more proof do you need? Visit the ground, until you're right on top of it you'd hardly know anything was there even on matchday. 

Wrexham's crowd can be three times that of Salford's and their new owners are only film stars known to kids, not local stars part of the most successful side the countries ever seen. 

The UK's not like Spain where people turn up to watch successful clubs and disappear when they lose here, they attend their hometown clubs if that area loves football (which greater Manchester does) then they stay, Salford is the bit of the Greater Manchester Area that doesn't love its club.

I don't remember being to Salford, I did live in Manchester for awhile though, so may have strolled into the area. Most people I saw in Manchester who were fans of local teams were either United or City.

Why would people have been going for years already though? Most people don't care about lower league football. Salford were non-league even until very recently. People just don't care. It's not the area, it's the level. Very few people watch games at that level, even moreso when there's also a Premier League club nearby.

And who are Wrexham competing with? Nobody. There aren't any other football clubs in Wrexham, and there certainly aren't any massively successful ones. It's much easier to attract fans when you're the only club they can easily get to.

People absolutely do turn up to watch successful clubs and disappear when they lose. Look at Sunderland, they averaged over 40k nearly every season when they were in the EPL, got relegated and down to 27k in the Championship, they actually recovered and got back above 30k in League One, but still a fair decrease from their EPL days. I'd bet they'd be back above 40k if they can get back into the EPL too. Leeds United too, they were mid to high 30ks, peaking at 39,752 in the EPL, got relegated and were suddenly low to mid 20ks with their lowest average at 21,613, just 4 years after their EPL high. That's about a 46% decrease in attendance in just 4 years following only 1 relegation. Fans definitely do disappear when teams lose. Oh and now they're back in the EPL again they're back up to around 35k. They come back too.

Salford are still only in League Two, have massive competition for fans with the Manchester clubs, and have significantly less history than the likes of Stockport and Rochdale who have solidified their fanbases over decades. And it's not even entirely fans going to United games instead of Salford, plenty of people would choose to sit at home and watch an EPL game on TV than go to a League Two match (I'm one of them), those people are still interested in football though, just not League Two football.

[Nacaw]

Oh wow, didn't mean to start a Salford City discussion. 

Attendance struggles a bit to catch up when you take clubs from very low levels to the top. It's always been like that. I think it's perfectly fine, you can't base a system on extreme cases of success and 1000's of fans don't just jump ship because another team close by become successful. As an example, I've taken Halifax Town to the Prem, and Bradford City in L2 still had more attendance Both are usually thought off more as rugby cities, I think. 

Either way, play for long enough and any random non-league club can achieve 40k attendance. I've had crowds bigger than the population of the city the team plays in many times. 

[Garethjohn79]

14 hours ago, rusty217 said:

I don't remember being to Salford, I did live in Manchester for awhile though, so may have strolled into the area. Most people I saw in Manchester who were fans of local teams were either United or City.

Why would people have been going for years already though? Most people don't care about lower league football. Salford were non-league even until very recently. People just don't care. It's not the area, it's the level. Very few people watch games at that level, even moreso when there's also a Premier League club nearby.

And who are Wrexham competing with? Nobody. There aren't any other football clubs in Wrexham, and there certainly aren't any massively successful ones. It's much easier to attract fans when you're the only club they can easily get to.

People absolutely do turn up to watch successful clubs and disappear when they lose. Look at Sunderland, they averaged over 40k nearly every season when they were in the EPL, got relegated and down to 27k in the Championship, they actually recovered and got back above 30k in League One, but still a fair decrease from their EPL days. I'd bet they'd be back above 40k if they can get back into the EPL too. Leeds United too, they were mid to high 30ks, peaking at 39,752 in the EPL, got relegated and were suddenly low to mid 20ks with their lowest average at 21,613, just 4 years after their EPL high. That's about a 46% decrease in attendance in just 4 years following only 1 relegation. Fans definitely do disappear when teams lose. Oh and now they're back in the EPL again they're back up to around 35k. They come back too.

Salford are still only in League Two, have massive competition for fans with the Manchester clubs, and have significantly less history than the likes of Stockport and Rochdale who have solidified their fanbases over decades. And it's not even entirely fans going to United games instead of Salford, plenty of people would choose to sit at home and watch an EPL game on TV than go to a League Two match (I'm one of them), those people are still interested in football though, just not League Two football.

Wrexham's a short trip too Merseyside and not far from Manchester or Stoke, you've answered my question though and confirmed those in Salford aren't interested in football, if they were they'd go in bigger numbers as so many can't get into Old Trafford. The football lovers with a United interest would go to Salford. 

With Leeds and Sunderland, you've failed to mention the ownership at the times which led to boycotting the clubs