No progress after a lot of seasons

[sgevolker]

Hi,

I'm playing football manager for years now, but this years version pulls me down and I don't know what else I can do. 

I' m playing with VFL Bochum in the German Bundesliga and I'm now in season 2033/2034. My Squad is promising but Im not able to get into the top 5. Most of the time over the years I'm placed between 5 and 9. In the previous versions I always had success after such a lot of seasons. I'm for sure not a tactical genius, but my experience in the past was, that with a solid formation and some good players success will come. But not this year 

I've tried a lot of formations and changes during the years and honestly don't know what's wrong. It's my long term save and I didn't want to give up, but I'm currently at a point were it doesn't make fun anymore. 

This is my current squad:

Some really outstanding players in it, young talents and some also with great personality. 

My tactic at the moment is nothing special, I try to keep it simple and I choose a balanced 4-4-2, because it's easy to adapt in game if necessary. 

I also tried 4-2-3-1 and 4-1-3-2. Nothing works really well. 

I watched some matches also in fulltime to see what's going on. It's a mix of everything. Matches were I have a lot of chances, Matches were I have only a view chances, I condense goals from different situations. I really cannot say what is the reason that I do not move forward. 

What are you guys doing in such a situation when you don't know what to do? I've tried so much and now I'm at the point to give up.

I'm thankful for every hint. 

Have a nice evening

Volker

 

[CARRERA]

8 minutes ago, sgevolker said:

What are you guys doing in such a situation when you don't know what to do? I've tried so much and now I'm at the point to give up.

I'm thankful for every hint. 

Your team seems kinda good, i would up the mentality to positive, increase the passing directness to allow more penetration and set up my players to allow more combination play. That can be best done, by switching to a 1 striker formation and setting up the duties of your forward players to support and link up the attack instead of creating depth and allow deeper players like fullbacks to be more mobile with an attack duty. One deeper central player that creates mobility can also come in handy.

[B3nnet7]

14 hours ago, sgevolker said:

Hi,

I'm playing football manager for years now, but this years version pulls me down and I don't know what else I can do. 

I' m playing with VFL Bochum in the German Bundesliga and I'm now in season 2033/2034. My Squad is promising but Im not able to get into the top 5. Most of the time over the years I'm placed between 5 and 9. In the previous versions I always had success after such a lot of seasons. I'm for sure not a tactical genius, but my experience in the past was, that with a solid formation and some good players success will come. But not this year 

I've tried a lot of formations and changes during the years and honestly don't know what's wrong. It's my long term save and I didn't want to give up, but I'm currently at a point were it doesn't make fun anymore. 

This is my current squad:

Some really outstanding players in it, young talents and some also with great personality. 

My tactic at the moment is nothing special, I try to keep it simple and I choose a balanced 4-4-2, because it's easy to adapt in game if necessary. 

I also tried 4-2-3-1 and 4-1-3-2. Nothing works really well. 

I watched some matches also in fulltime to see what's going on. It's a mix of everything. Matches were I have a lot of chances, Matches were I have only a view chances, I condense goals from different situations. I really cannot say what is the reason that I do not move forward. 

What are you guys doing in such a situation when you don't know what to do? I've tried so much and now I'm at the point to give up.

I'm thankful for every hint. 

Have a nice evening

Volker

 

Having overlap left on with your tactic is pointless btw, cause on the left your IW is on attack duty so you're basically asking him to look for overlaps from the WB when he is trying to attack the box and play higher up the pitch, not to mention a WB on support will naturally overlap anyway. 

I would also suggest adjusting your lines. I play with short passing and high tempo but I play with a higher defensive line and a much higher line of engagement and it works well for me. If you're playing with a high tempo you're going to need to keep more space upfront for your attackers to use, so having a higher line of engagement will help that 

[sgevolker]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb B3nnet7:

I would also suggest adjusting your lines. I play with short passing and high tempo but I play with a higher defensive line and a much higher line of engagement and it works well for me. If you're playing with a high tempo you're going to need to keep more space upfront for your attackers to use, so having a higher line of engagement will help that 

Thanks for your feedback. More space in front ist clear, but with a high line of engagement I reduce the space? Or not? 

[glengarry224]

It's not going to help you if people just give you tactical improvements, some of which you might not need.  You need to get an idea, in relation to the top teams, of why you are not doing better.  Look at the statistics, especially of games where you underperform.  Are you drawing or losing too many games to inferior teams?  O are you always losing to Bayern, etc?  Is it because you concede too many or just can't score enough?  Do you regularly concede in the last 15 minutes and blow points, like Tottenham last year?  

Take the games where you lose/draw/underperform, look at the median (not the average) or throw out the outliers, and figure out where you need to improve.

Which players perform well in their roles and which do not?  Again, look at the key games.  For example, your CM might have a 7.2 rating over the season but only have a 6.5 against top teams.

Are your CMs really good?  You have an excellent winger, forward, right back and central defender.  A 4-4-2 of course can work, but that formation usually revolves around the ability of the CMs to control the midfield.  As others have said, 'shorter passing' might hinder you (on the other hand, maybe it's working for you?).  Especially in a 4-4-2 with the 'counter' TI, there is space between the midfield and forwards, and you are discouraging the midfielders and defenders from making more direct passes.

Does Prat perform well as a TM?  His strength, jumping and heading are not great for a top league.  I would want at least one tactic where Timmermans and Prat get the ball and attack the defence off the dribble.

[Gdansk]

Very interesting topic. I had something somewhat similar with Heidenheim at the end of FM19 but it only was I think 3 1/2 seasons in the Bundesliga I played, finishing something like 12th, 12th, 10th and then was 7th when I stopped playing due to FM20.

I'd be interested in looking into the savefile directly and play some games, if you'd be willing to load this up. As some have said the tactic is totally okay and nothing in there that is never going to work, so it's hard to achieve instant improvement just by giving some tweaks for the tactic. My suspicion would be, that you're overly cautious and not aggressive enough against worse teams playing like the Cautious 4-2-3-1 which is very popular with AI Bundesliga managers and similar stuff, but at the other end are too iffy defensively against the big teams not making enough out of the quick transition opportunities given to you.

[sgevolker]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb glengarry224:

Are your CMs really good?  You have an excellent winger, forward, right back and central defender.  A 4-4-2 of course can work, but that formation usually revolves around the ability of the CMs to control the midfield.  As others have said, 'shorter passing' might hinder you (on the other hand, maybe it's working for you?).  Especially in a 4-4-2 with the 'counter' TI, there is space between the midfield and forwards, and you are discouraging the midfielders and defenders from making more direct passes.

Does Prat perform well as a TM?  His strength, jumping and heading are not great for a top league.  I would want at least one tactic where Timmermans and Prat get the ball and attack the defence off the dribble.

Some really good points, thank you. Meanwhile I also think the 4-4-2 is not the best system for my team. Prat is usually not playing the TM. My TM was Brinkies in most games and he should be sufficient to play the role. 

In CM I have those guys. 

All in all one of the best teams which I ever had in FM. But until now we didn't perform like we should.

What I now try to establish is a more ball oriented play, like some of proposed. Of course Prad and Timmermans are my Key-Players.

I try a 4-2-3-1 with shorter passing and gegenpress when the opponent has the ball. After a view games it looks promising, but until now I didn't had one of the bigger teams of the league. 

Have a nice evening and congratulations to England for those of you who supporting them.

[sgevolker]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb Gdansk:

I'd be interested in looking into the savefile directly and play some games, if you'd be willing to load this up. 

Of course. I'm curios what you can achieve. Please try this link to download my save right before the first post. 

https://filehorst.de/d/dBujEnjs

[glengarry224]

3 hours ago, sgevolker said:

Some really good points, thank you. Meanwhile I also think the 4-4-2 is not the best system for my team. Prat is usually not playing the TM. My TM was Brinkies in most games and he should be sufficient to play the role. 

In CM I have those guys. 

All in all one of the best teams which I ever had in FM. But until now we didn't perform like we should.

What I now try to establish is a more ball oriented play, like some of proposed. Of course Prad and Timmermans are my Key-Players.

I try a 4-2-3-1 with shorter passing and gegenpress when the opponent has the ball. After a view games it looks promising, but until now I didn't had one of the bigger teams of the league. 

Have a nice evening and congratulations to England for those of you who supporting them.

Took a quick look at your save.  You have a lot of good attacking players but defensively, your midfielders are below par versus top clubs like Bayern.  Also, your overall talent level is not at Bayern's level so you need to be a bit more careful when playing teams at their level. In particular, your GK is not at top-level therefore top teams will convert a lot of their chances, which makes it harder to play high-risk against them.  You could go high-risk to start but you'll need a low-risk alternative if you get a lead or if it's not working.

So, I would not play a 4-4-2 versus Bayern.  Of the 2 CMs you use, Yasin has adequate speed but his defensive stats are not up to top-Bundesliga level, and Maier is too slow, which is a killer for a CM in a 4-4-2, and his Aggression is abysmal. Without help for them, Bayern will dominate you in the midfield.  Kowalski actually would make a really good midfielder.  Of course, his speed is great a wingback but he has below-Bundesliga level crossing, dribbling and work rate.

Against that level, even your 4-2-3-1 is aggressive because it is a top-heavy system, your wingbacks are getting forwards, your DL has below-par Positioning/WR/Acc, you have no DMs and your CMs are not great defensively.  Consider against top teams, especially on the road, going more solid defensively and looking for quick counter-attacks with only 2-3 players attacking, especially Prat and Brinkies.  A 4-2-3-1 with 2 DMs might work, but really, I think that you'll need three players total in the DM/CM stratas, though maybe one could be an IWB.

Yeah, Brinkies can do the job at TM against many teams but might have trouble against top teams.  You'd have to see.  His jumping and composure are great but his bravery is poor and some of his traits are not best for a TM(s) (likes to beat offsides and takes first time shots).  TM(a) might work better?  He certainly would be a great outlet for a counter attack.

Most of all, get yourself a solid, brave, hard-nosed, athletic defensive midfielder.

Edited July 4, 2021 by glengarry224

[Gdansk]

So quick update, I looked at the save a bit and played the game against Bayern twice. First of all I have to say that maybe I'm not the absolute best person to ask here since I rarely play as long as this save and when I did in FM21 it was with the daveincid files so the crazy newgens are a little bit toned down. So your players look amazing from that perspective, but if you look at Bayern you have guys with 20 pace/acc and all that stuff coming at you. Probably can import this team into 2020/21 Bundesliga and play for the title easily but in Vanilla FM in 2033 it's a bit different.

I have to admit that I tried just tweaking your 4-4-2 a bit and play Bayern like that, but got easily smashed 5-0 with 4-0 after 20 minutes, it was penalty, freekick, tap-in from freekick and the game done after 10 minutes, but still was an xG of maybe 0.4-3.9 and not like these games where it's 1.3-1.7 and you lose 4-0 because the superior players just score everything. So I don't know why and what the German research has done but it seems after some years just every  (90%+) Manager wants to play 4-2-3-1 in Bundesliga (like Bayern manager is Jesse Marsch who in the beginning has a 4-2-2-2 as his favorite formation accurately but at Bayern it switches to 4-2-3-1, seen this with Conte or Nagelsmann as well), so if you are not dead set on the 4-4-2 for some reason, I'd try something that matches the three central midfielders you'll face 30/34 times.

What I've also found is that there is some "lazy mistakes" in the save if it's okay to call it that. Things that may be placebo for me in some instances, but they don't hurt and while they won't make a bad tactic perform good, personally I think they can make a difference in an instance like this where the tactic is solid to good.

1) is correct set piece routines, you have guys on your posts on defensive corners which never seems to work in FM21, also I'd recommend stuff like 4 guys on stay back and 2 guys standing outside of the box on offensive set pieces, it's not a magical solution to score tons of goals from them, but to avoid any stupid counter goals from the opponent winning the header and running at you, or standing 3v3 when they are down late. I've just seen in my save, when you have 4 guys on stay back if the opponent only keeps 1 guy up top you'll also only leave 2 there but late in the game when they leave 3 you'll have 4 there. Against Stuttgart and Bayern you/I conceded as well from a guy standing around at the edge of the box from a deflection, so if that happens I'd look into these as well.

2) you don't have a guy set up to give you a scout report of the team, where you can see their mentality/shape, formation and roles. While some people may say this is cheating or something (I don't know if you don't have these on on purpose), which I can understand, but if you want to maximize results and are struggling this is something to look at, since you know what the opponent wants to do and gives you a chance to adapt, since I still have the suspicion if you always played this 4-4-2 against everybody you'll be way too leaky against better teams but at the same time can't pressure teams that play more defensive with weaker players.

3) I've seen that you played some players sometimes not in the role they should play in your tactic, for example against Stuttgart the 1.83 Prat played TM and not the 191 19 JR striker. Also some guy with 2 aggression played BWM which doesn't seem good for him.

4) You've had stuff like Pass Into Space on, which I don't really like in a TM system. I sometimes want to do stuff like this as well to get multiple attacking schemes, but I feel like in FM this won't work since you can't tell the guys to play it into the head of the TM but into the deep runs of the PF/CF/AF whatever you want. The ball will just fly over his head with this combination.

5) I'd personally make sure that most to if possible all of the match preparation stuff is shown as being worked on or whatever it says before every game. This may very well be placebo but I rather do it than concede a goal from a free kick and haven't used that training session. It shouldn't really hurt.

6) I haven't seen that you use OIs, so I'd recommend at least tight marking/pressing lone strikers or AF/PF(A)/P type players in front 2s, CMs/DMs with good long shots (honestly I'm too lazy for that and just do it all the time but in theory you should be able to be selective with it). Regarding CM/DM marking I've to say there could be a downside with players just focusing too much on the marking, but I have to say I can't remember a situation where I'm like oh I have this guy tight marked with the OI and now they could get an easy through ball or smth, while I definitely notice random guys scoring rockets when I don't use it, so it's an easy choice for me. What I also like is Pressing the FBs of the opponent, which in rl of course is the most common pressing trigger so I try to resemble this somewhat by doing that.

 

[Gdansk]

So I've played some games and have to say it has been really fun (after switching to 4-2-3-1 variations after the trashing from Bayern with the 4-4-2) and shown a cool perspective of the game for me.

I've seen you got a CM from Celtic coming in already which is a good decision, I've relied a lot on the 18yo Shala in CM since he doesn't have any crazy flaws, against Dortmund I used Blase with him in DM who I totally overlooked at first with his 1,99m. Against weaker teams Torres with his 19 vision can do a job as DLP though imo.

This screen with the view from the user called Rashidi aka BustTheNet aka Daljit aka AddictedToFM has helped me a lot to determine who I play against whom and imo this is the only thing that really is between you and getting great results instead of solid to good but inconsistent ones. Knowing what to play against which opposition and what players to use for what purpose.

[sgevolker]

Thanks Guys, amazing feedback, some really good points. Especially from Gdanks 

For sure I will test a view things now and response. But I need time for this 

 

 

 

[sgevolker]

Hi Guys,

as promised here is how it's going until the end of the season. 

I switched to a 4-2-3-1 and the start was promising. But after a view games it turns around and the end of the season was really bad again. We come into a bad run and lost a view games. 

So we finished at 8th in the Bundesliga, which means no European competition next year. 

In the Euro Conference League we reached the final but lost against Sevilla. Our games in the cup were much better then in the League.

Here's the tactic I've played in this second half of the season.

The Board is disappointed, something I've never had before.  

Now I've got the challenge to collect 10 Points out of the next 5 matches 

What are my learnings until now:

• We've got too much goals from corners (10). Something I have to stop.
• We do not create many chance. I don't know what's wrong but my offence is not efficient. 
• We concede a lot of chance to the opponent teams and get a lot of goals.

I think what's missing is a central midfielder in defend who is stopping the opponent Playmaker. Therefore I will now switch to a more cautious 4-1-2-3 and try to exploit the fast players I've got on the flanks with a counter attacking formation. 

I will update you with my progress next season and if I'm able to get the needed points to keep my employment.

 

 

 

[sgevolker]

Wtf 

[Gdansk]

I just noticed I didn't even upload the tactics I used winning all the games when using them.

This was the normal tactic for most games.

 

This tactic I used to beat Bayern and Dortmund (marking their FBs with my Wingers).

To address your problems... What have you done with your defensive corners? Remove guys from the posts and put your best 3-4 jumpers (depending on the Aerial Reach and Command Of Area of the Goalkeeper) in the last line and you shouldn't have big issues since I know you have a lot of tall players wih 16-17 jumping reach.

Tactically, yeah I can see why you have problems creating chances. I recently played with a ManCity tactic to find out what somebody was struggling with, with the current Man City squad, that was on Positive, Narrower, Work Ball Into Box, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defence and even though the tactic worked pretty well results wise you could sense that they have trouble to create good chances from open play. Now you go and use cautious mentality (that pulls down passing directness, tempo, lines, pressing, width pretty significant) and use a ton of possession instructions in addition to that, while using roles that are reliant on quick transitions like AF and wingers on attack. I'd guess you'll run into trouble defensively cuz you slowly build up, everybody moves forward with the wing backs pretty much arriving in the last line often and then one short pass gets intercepted and you have these demigod 2030 strikers with 18 Acc and Pace run at your CBs and the CM/D.

In general I wouldn't expect to be able to use one tactic for all games with a team like this, since you're still in between tiers, so you're not good enough that everybody will just sit back against you but easily good enough that most teams in the league won't attack you. So if you're not comfortable adapting in-game maybe build something like I did with one tactic for normal opponents and one when somebody throws everybody at you. Going more cautious will just lead to most teams being happy with a draw, where I don't see how you can get 10 points out of these matches, even though tha will be hard no matter what you try.

[toshimitzou1]

Hi there.

When I played a save in the Bundesliga I very quickly realised that the majority of teams employ a tactical variation of gegenpressing or controlled possession (which is entails a high pressing system) Is this the case in your current save? If so, I found that playing counter attacking football a very effective strategy. The current set up of your roles and duties lends itself to such a style, far more than a possession orientated approach.

 

Let me know if you would like to discuss further.

 

[sgevolker]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb toshimitzou1:

Hi there.

When I played a save in the Bundesliga I very quickly realised that the majority of teams employ a tactical variation of gegenpressing or controlled possession (which is entails a high pressing system) Is this the case in your current save? If so, I found that playing counter attacking football a very effective strategy. The current set up of your roles and duties lends itself to such a style, far more than a possession orientated approach.

 

Let me know if you would like to discuss further.

 

Hi,

yes, most of the teams are playing gegenpressing with a 4-2-3-1 . Counter attacking football makes sense and at the beginning of the save I was very successful with this style. Until I though that it was time for a change because I didn't saw any progress. That was the point were I changed to much in the playing style and got problems. 

[sgevolker]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Gdansk:

To address your problems... What have you done with your defensive corners? Remove guys from the posts and put your best 3-4 jumpers (depending on the Aerial Reach and Command Of Area of the Goalkeeper) in the last line and you shouldn't have big issues since I know you have a lot of tall players wih 16-17 jumping reach.

Tactically, yeah I can see why you have problems creating chances. I recently played with a ManCity tactic to find out what somebody was struggling with, with the current Man City squad, that was on Positive, Narrower, Work Ball Into Box, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defence and even though the tactic worked pretty well results wise you could sense that they have trouble to create good chances from open play. Now you go and use cautious mentality (that pulls down passing directness, tempo, lines, pressing, width pretty significant) and use a ton of possession instructions in addition to that, while using roles that are reliant on quick transitions like AF and wingers on attack. I'd guess you'll run into trouble defensively cuz you slowly build up, everybody moves forward with the wing backs pretty much arriving in the last line often and then one short pass gets intercepted and you have these demigod 2030 strikers with 18 Acc and Pace run at your CBs and the CM/D.

In general I wouldn't expect to be able to use one tactic for all games with a team like this, since you're still in between tiers, so you're not good enough that everybody will just sit back against you but easily good enough that most teams in the league won't attack you. So if you're not comfortable adapting in-game maybe build something like I did with one tactic for normal opponents and one when somebody throws everybody at you. Going more cautious will just lead to most teams being happy with a draw, where I don't see how you can get 10 points out of these matches, even though tha will be hard no matter what you try.

Thanks for posting your tactics 

What have I done with the corners? That#s simple, I've created a new tactic and forgot to load the set-pieces routines. Yes stupid beginner fault 

But I like that the game punished me for that 

I think I understand what you tell me. I try to watch the first games now in full mode to see what's happening. I also think it's a good idea to create two tactics, one more possession oriented for teams who sit back and one counter attacking for the bigger teams. I will give this a try and see how it works.

Thanks for all of your support, I really appreciate. 

[sgevolker]

Hi Guys,

good news after half of the next season. Thanks to your input I did some changes.

1. I developed a more cautious counter tactic which I use in most of the games. Sometimes when things are not working I switch to a more possession styled tactic based on the example from Gdanks above. This is how the tactic looks like. My idea behind is to reduce conceding goals and did allow too many chances. And yes, it worked very well.

The result are only 9 Goals against me in 17 Games, only 58 shots on my own target and 10 clean sheet games.

2. I also overworked my set-pieces and concentrate on defending. Also always for at the back to avoid counter after own set-pieces. Result are zero Goals against me after set-pieces 

3. I recognized my left side as a weak point and was able to buy this guy from Hannover for 47 Million. I was also able to sell one midfielder to Manu for the same value, so this was for me a good business. And yes, Elvir is one of my best players 

4. I retrained my right full back as a defensive midfielder and it worked very well. With good Positioning, Tackling and Anticipation he is exactly filling this cap in my squad.

At the end the overall statistics looks good now. Prat is now leading the leagues goals scoring stats with 15 goals. 

I won a lot of games and only had one lost against Schalke, one of the bigger teams (not in real life anymore  )

Thanks to that performance I'm now leading the league and I'm curios what the second half will bring. I'm a little bit fearful that my tactic will not work the whole season but thanks to you I can now also switch to something different and have more opportunities.

Thanks everybody for your help, I will let you know how the seasons ends 

Br

Volker