How to improve my tactic ...

[f.zaarour]

Hi, I have been struggling in espec. away games in the full version. Some said the Beta was to easy, well it feels like it has been harder now. Some help would be nice. What would be better to fit in my tactic, ...

- Choose the roles that suits the player the best or the way around? 

And i saw the control possesion tactic and it i'd like to play like that but more direct and maybe the team closer to each other. 

- What could i change to my tactic and is it balanced anyway? 

I have some easy wins, but in away games is just harder...

- Where to tweak in my tactic to be better in away games? 

- And is choosing Counterpress/ ... and Counter/Hold Shape a must...? Thanks in advance. 

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

What could i change to my tactic and is it balanced anyway? 

Do not play the AP on attack and IF on attack on the same side. 

Do not insist on preventing short GK distribution, especially as you are already aggressive enough (both lines higher + more urgent press).

Do not play with narrow attacking width when you manage a top team.

A couple other tweaks may be needed as well, but those above are the most obvious IMHO. 

[Experienced Defender]

And yes, an AP on attack duty is better suited as a role for counter-attacking or fast attacking styles, which yours is not.

[f.zaarour]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Do not play the AP on attack and IF on attack on the same side. 

Do not insist on preventing short GK distribution, especially as you are already aggressive enough (both lines higher + more urgent press).

Do not play with narrow attacking width when you manage a top team.

A couple other tweaks may be needed as well, but those above are the most obvious IMHO. 

Thanks, ill take it to my tactic. So the tactic is fine balanced right? And what about the next thing...? 

Choose the roles that suits the player the best or the way around? 

[Experienced Defender]

50 minutes ago, f.zaarour said:

Choose the roles that suits the player the best or the way around?

The selection of roles and duties needs to be such that the roles interact with one another in a sensible and logical way. Players should be suitable enough for the roles they play (attributes-wise), but it's not necessary that every player be given his "ideal" role, because any player can successfully play more than one role. 

 

53 minutes ago, f.zaarour said:

So the tactic is fine balanced right?

I already told you (in my previous comment) what's the main issue in your tactic.

 

53 minutes ago, f.zaarour said:

And what about the next thing...? 

Which "next thing"?

[f.zaarour]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

The selection of roles and duties needs to be such that the roles interact with one another in a sensible and logical way. Players should be suitable enough for the roles they play (attributes-wise), but it's not necessary that every player be given his "ideal" role, because any player can successfully play more than one role. 

I already told you (in my previous comment) what's the main issue in your tactic.

Oke thanks. Well so not necessary in first place about the suited roles. I am doing realy bad with Real Madrid (see picture), away games i just cant win somehow. While in home games its more solid, weirdly enough (But seems like some realism as Real IRL is doing not good also lol). Ur changes by the way I inverted now in my tactic and just played 1 game, that away game vs Sevilla, didnt go well though. Any more advice is welcome. 

Im thinking about the attack which is just not effective enough. Hard where to look. And looking into training is that a key for it? ... I really want it make to work, instead of just going info those default tactics. 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Which "next thing"?

The question after that, but u answered it in ur first answer. Thanks.

Edited November 27, 2020 by f.zaarour

[Justified]

I don't think you're a million miles off but the tactic is indeed ill balanced. With the players you've posted in mind I'd look at something like this (I always start back to front  )

Benzema (DLPsu) Agree with this. Already has Move into Channels and Plays One Two's which would see you get some nice combination play.

Asensio (IWsu) I'd actually play this guy as the IW. He has great vision, passing, finishing, long shots and good crossing which means he can cut in and either pass, shoot or cross which is quite handy.

Vinicius (IFat) Has Plays one Two's so will link up well with Benzema who also has this PPM.

Odegaard (MEZat) Will have some nice combinations with Asensio. Looking to overload this side of the pitch.

Kroos (DLPsu) Don't think I need to explain this one. Typical DLP player who will have loads of options for his range of passing

Casemiro (DMsu) Agreed here. Can have a defend role in tougher matches.

Carvajal (FBat) Likes to get forward. Adds to the overload on the right hand side of the pitch with Odegaard and Asensio.

Varane + Ramos (CDdef) I would keep things simple here. There are much more creative players on the pitch so would rather give them the ball)

Mendy (FBat) Likes to get forward too. Will have the added security that Kroos plays in a holding role.

Courtois - Whatever you feel like really. I would lean towards GKdef as you already have POoD selected so his passing automatically becomes more shorter.

 

Add this to ED's advice and you have a tactic specifically aimed towards overloads on the right to free up the players on the left. With such a technically efficient I'd look to play at a higher tempo then the default Balanced mentality sets so you can really move teams around.

EDIT: This is just how I would set up if I was playing as Real. I'm sure there are other tactics that would work just as well but using the formation and players you posted I would do it this way.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Justified

[Experienced Defender]

26 minutes ago, f.zaarour said:

I inverted now in my tactic and just played 1 game, that away game vs Sevilla, didnt go well though. Any more advice is welcome

Can we see what exactly your tactic looks like now following the changes you've made - a screenshot of the new tactic? 

Because I only told you what was wrong in my view, but without telling you what exactly you should do to improve it. So it's possible that you've just replaced one tactical mistake with another 

[f.zaarour]

26 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Can we see what exactly your tactic looks like now following the changes you've made - a screenshot of the new tactic? 

Because I only told you what was wrong in my view, but without telling you what exactly you should do to improve it. So it's possible that you've just replaced one tactical mistake with another 

Well i changed the things u suggested only so it looks now like this... 

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

Well i changed the things u suggested only so it looks now like this

I only suggested that an AP on attack duty is not a good idea for how you want to play, especially considering the rest of your setup. But I did not suggest having almost no central penetration. I did not suggest those (aggressive) out-of-possession TIs either. I did not suggest the Balanced team mentality (especially in combination with your roles, duties and other instructions). And so on ...

Keep in mind that you are Real Madrid - a top team that will face very defensive opposition most of the time, so you need a tactic that will give those defensive opponents a lot to think about. That is primarily achieved through a wise selection of roles and duties, and then instructions only serve to encourage a certain type of strategy. 

For example, does Valverde have suitable attributes to be a playmaker (not necessarily AP)? Would Asensio be able to play as an attacking mezzala (attributes-wise)? Which are their respective stronger feet? Would perhaps a DLP be a better idea for the playmaker role than AP? 

These things may look "trivial" on the surface, but can actually matter greatly. 

[f.zaarour]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I only suggested that an AP on attack duty is not a good idea for how you want to play, especially considering the rest of your setup. But I did not suggest having almost no central penetration. I did not suggest those (aggressive) out-of-possession TIs either. I did not suggest the Balanced team mentality (especially in combination with your roles, duties and other instructions). And so on ...

Keep in mind that you are Real Madrid - a top team that will face very defensive opposition most of the time, so you need a tactic that will give those defensive opponents a lot to think about. That is primarily achieved through a wise selection of roles and duties, and then instructions only serve to encourage a certain type of strategy. 

For example, does Valverde have suitable attributes to be a playmaker (not necessarily AP)? Would Asensio be able to play as an attacking mezzala (attributes-wise)? Which are their respective stronger feet? Would perhaps a DLP be a better idea for the playmaker role than AP? 

These things may look "trivial" on the surface, but can actually matter greatly. 

Appreciate ur help but what do u suggest then? I followed the suggestion u said, unticked prevent short gk for example etc. But now they are not the right ones, which u didnt suggested? Sorry but I dont get it, but maybe its my bad. 

And i had also some questions in depth to understand some things but not seen any answers on it. But all good. Thanks anyway. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by f.zaarour

[f.zaarour]

19 hours ago, Justified said:

I don't think you're a million miles off but the tactic is indeed ill balanced. With the players you've posted in mind I'd look at something like this (I always start back to front  )

Benzema (DLPsu) Agree with this. Already has Move into Channels and Plays One Two's which would see you get some nice combination play.

Asensio (IWsu) I'd actually play this guy as the IW. He has great vision, passing, finishing, long shots and good crossing which means he can cut in and either pass, shoot or cross which is quite handy.

Vinicius (IFat) Has Plays one Two's so will link up well with Benzema who also has this PPM.

Odegaard (MEZat) Will have some nice combinations with Asensio. Looking to overload this side of the pitch.

Kroos (DLPsu) Don't think I need to explain this one. Typical DLP player who will have loads of options for his range of passing

Casemiro (DMsu) Agreed here. Can have a defend role in tougher matches.

Carvajal (FBat) Likes to get forward. Adds to the overload on the right hand side of the pitch with Odegaard and Asensio.

Varane + Ramos (CDdef) I would keep things simple here. There are much more creative players on the pitch so would rather give them the ball)

Mendy (FBat) Likes to get forward too. Will have the added security that Kroos plays in a holding role.

Courtois - Whatever you feel like really. I would lean towards GKdef as you already have POoD selected so his passing automatically becomes more shorter.

 

Add this to ED's advice and you have a tactic specifically aimed towards overloads on the right to free up the players on the left. With such a technically efficient I'd look to play at a higher tempo then the default Balanced mentality sets so you can really move teams around.

EDIT: This is just how I would set up if I was playing as Real. I'm sure there are other tactics that would work just as well but using the formation and players you posted I would do it this way.

Thanks for the input. Noticed also FB's are much better to overlap wide then the WB's somehow (after trying ur tips). And after some bad results, i went to attacking mentality and instead of counter i chose *Hold Shape* and that looked way better in my play. I think exactly what i was looking for. Results went way better also after that. But the connection with all, TI, roles, mentality etc. stays tricky.

About the WB's, when would u use them instead of FB's?

Edited November 28, 2020 by f.zaarour

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, f.zaarour said:

Appreciate ur help but what do u suggest then? I followed the suggestion u said, unticked prevent short gk for example etc. But now they are not the right ones, which u didnt suggested? Sorry but I dont get it, but maybe its my bad

Removing the Prevent GKD was a good move itself, but not necessarily enough. It's hard to say which particular combo of instructions would optimally suit your players - because each team is different - but the combination I've personally had most success with when managing top teams is - higher D-line + standard LOE + default pressing + split block (involving 4 players) + (occasionally) counter-press + Positive team mentality. But in any case, I almost never need to increase the pressing urgency, since those instructions are usually aggressive enough. 

[Justified]

1 hour ago, f.zaarour said:

About the WB's, when would u use them instead of FB's?

Depends really. The most common advice you'll get is roles should not be viewed in isolation and that is perfectly true. The way I decide on tactics is dependant on what I've got player-wise but in general I usually work from front to back as I'm fairly confident on how to set up not to concede.

If I have a World Class player like Messi in my team then of course I would take into consideration that I want to get the best out of him because it probably means I win matches if I do and then work my roles around it.

[f.zaarour]

@Experienced Defender  @Justified Thanks for the input and tips. I have taken some into my tactic which made it much better now, like the split block, being lesser agressive, the FB's instead of WB's etc. Ive noticed also the hold shape TI makes the 4123 formation stronger in attack, so thats good. 

I have still a question, if I may, thats what to change when against other bigger teams, espec. away games. I mean is changing mentality to balanced enough? Or should I think about changing, the DoF line, or untick counterpress to prevent being outplayed by those stronger teams? So where do you need to look for in those kind of situations...? Thanks in advance. 

And the advice about bigger teams vs smaller ones is usefull for me for sure, thanks. So me a big team vs smaller teams, means they will defend more, perhaps with a low block so you need to be attacking minded in your tactic. And when its the other way around you can be more effective with lower lines, using Counter TI etc. for example, ...right? 

[Justified]

On 29/11/2020 at 21:28, f.zaarour said:

@Experienced Defender  @Justified Thanks for the input and tips. I have taken some into my tactic which made it much better now, like the split block, being lesser agressive, the FB's instead of WB's etc. Ive noticed also the hold shape TI makes the 4123 formation stronger in attack, so thats good. 

I have still a question, if I may, thats what to change when against other bigger teams, espec. away games. I mean is changing mentality to balanced enough? Or should I think about changing, the DoF line, or untick counterpress to prevent being outplayed by those stronger teams? So where do you need to look for in those kind of situations...? Thanks in advance. 

And the advice about bigger teams vs smaller ones is usefull for me for sure, thanks. So me a big team vs smaller teams, means they will defend more, perhaps with a low block so you need to be attacking minded in your tactic. And when its the other way around you can be more effective with lower lines, using Counter TI etc. for example, ...right? 

tbh with a team like Real I wouldn't drop lower then Positive. I'd want the opponent to be more worried about my team then vice versa. But if you had to then yes you can be more "Vanilla" with Balanced mentality but I think you can still keep the general team instructions that you have.

[f.zaarour]

@Justified @Experienced Defender Hi, thanks for the tips on my other tactic. Im now into an AZ save also, and playing in 4231 which is new for me. Id like to ask how u would set this up. I already have made it abit the same as the 4123 formation but was wondering espec. how to connect (and in which roles) the ACM position with the Striker and both wing players. And are my midfielders well placed>?

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

Id like to ask how u would set this up

I personally would not play both fullbacks on attack. More precisely, I would change the left one into a WB on support. But that's just me  

[f.zaarour]

On 10/12/2020 at 00:41, Experienced Defender said:

I personally would not play both fullbacks on attack. More precisely, I would change the left one into a WB on support. But that's just me  

Thanks. What does the WB do in comparison to the FB by the way?

Need some help on the next thing. Why is the difference in home and away games so huge for me? I keep failing in away games while doing fine in home games, its weird? 

Where do i need to focus on or what should i change in first place to be more solid in away games...? Appreciate the help. 

[Experienced Defender]

10 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

What does the WB do in comparison to the FB by the way?

WB as a role (apart from duty) is more attack-minded than FB, generally better at providing attacking width and slightly more aggressive when defending.

But my suggestion - as always - was in relation to the setup as a whole, i.e. overall tactical balance (as opposed to viewing roles in isolation). 

10 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

Why is the difference in home and away games so huge for me?

I cannot tell that with certainty, simply because I don't manage your team and don't watch your matches. But I can assume one potential reason could be the fact that (AI) teams generally tend to be a bit more attack-minded or less defensive-minded when playing at home compared to away games. So when you use an attack-minded tactic when playing away, the home team may be able to take advantage of potential gaps in your defensive shape. 

 

10 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

Where do i need to focus on or what should i change in first place to be more solid in away games...?

Watch the matches very carefully in the comprehensive mode - or even full if necessary - and try to spot the weaknesses in your tactic (do you leave too much space between the lines for the opposition to exploit, is your defensive line possibly too high so as to allow balls over the top, do your players tend to lose possession in dangerous area and thus allow the opponent to launch quick counters, if they do lose possession - where on the pitch does it usually happen, and so on...

Once you figure all that out, you'll be in a lot better position to decide which tweaks could make sense. 

[f.zaarour]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

WB as a role (apart from duty) is more attack-minded than FB, generally better at providing attacking width and slightly more aggressive when defending.

But my suggestion - as always - was in relation to the setup as a whole, i.e. overall tactical balance (as opposed to viewing roles in isolation). 

I cannot tell that with certainty, simply because I don't manage your team and don't watch your matches. But I can assume one potential reason could be the fact that (AI) teams generally tend to be a bit more attack-minded or less defensive-minded when playing at home compared to away games. So when you use an attack-minded tactic when playing away, the home team may be able to take advantage of potential gaps in your defensive shape. 

Thanks. That was said in the other topic as well (about away games, the home team is being more attacking minded) so good point and i think i need to look for a solution in that area, which hopefully could help me. If i can say, so i should look into maybe put my DoF and LoE 1 click lower or put the FB's on su instead of att. for example? 

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Watch the matches very carefully in the comprehensive mode - or even full if necessary - and try to spot the weaknesses in your tactic (do you leave too much space between the lines for the opposition to exploit, is your defensive line possibly too high so as to allow balls over the top, do your players tend to lose possession in dangerous area and thus allow the opponent to launch quick counters, if they do lose possession - where on the pitch does it usually happen, and so on...

Once you figure all that out, you'll be in a lot better position to decide which tweaks could make sense. 

Ye thats also why its hard for me to spot the problem i think. I watch my games in extended highlights. But im not rly into watching it in full, to much time needed hehe. But the point about opposition being more attacking minded is a good one to think about, now gonna check out on how to solve that a be more solid in those away games. Hopefully. 

 

Oh and one more thing if i may. Had some games where i was the better team, but the box was to crowded and couldnt get outplayed chances to score easily. At that moment im asking myself what can I do, but there is a lot, untick WBiB or even shoot more often, or play wider or maybe change the roles of the striker and AMC position or use a IF on at, but what is the best thing to do in those moments? And could using in that case pass into space be a option? 

[Zemahh]

12 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

Why is the difference in home and away games so huge for me? I keep failing in away games while doing fine in home games, its weird?

Home advantage phenomenon is real and also simulated in FM (which is why tournaments like FM Streamer Showdown use Neutral venues to get rid of it). It's very possible for your team to perform worse in away matches, whether it's because of travel fatigue, away fans, referee's bias, or other factors the game tries to simulate. Pitch sizes could also be different and affect your performance quite a bit (e.g. Wingers not finding enough space on narrow pitches), but that's less of a problem in top leagues. Then there's also tactics and pre-match expectations that ED explained.

 

[Pipster]

Things I would add to this is have this tactic for your home games if it is working but for away games add the exact same tactic in the number 2 slot and tweak a few things.
 

As a start in away games if your losing games then try it with a more cautious mentality for a start. A team like Real, someone said to play on a Positive mentality all the time and to a degree I agree with that. However if the players are not match sharp, low morale, unfamiliar with the tactic then I would 100% not be playing on a positive mentality. I would start with cautious and if the match is progressing how you want to then change to a more positive mentality during the game, as their morale grows. Look at their body language in the team talk, are they nervous for example? Are they complacent?

I would also look at the previous games that you are not happy with. Where did the goals you conceded come from? Who created them and who scored them? Look at that players attributes and look what their strengths are, was it balls over the top of a high line of defence and you were murdered by a fast forward out sprinting your defender? Was it the defender marking too tightly and the opposition player had good first touch, anticipation, composure etc You have to watch the game and see what is happening but I also find looking at the oppositions previous games and goals and find out who is creating and scoring, looking at their attributes and work out how to beat them. You might need to play a defender with higher acceleration and pace when playing against a fast striker, or drop the defensive line back. If the striker has poor bravery then  tackle him hard. It’s not just the striker though. Look who is creating the goals for them. Can you see a pattern of crosses and the striker scoring from heading or a low cross. Are you leaving gaps at the edge of the box. Does that DM(su) need to be on a defensive duty for this game to combat a good AM or AP. Could it be better to play him as a HB in that position for that game?
 

The other things I bang on about are training for the upcoming match. If you’re up against a top team then train defending if that’s where you have been weak. Train defending corners if you’re conceding from corners.

The other one is Opposition Instructions. Which players do you need to mark tightly? Which players to press because they have a low composure and decisions. Hard tackling on low bravery players and which players to show onto their weaker foot. I have found using this one even if a player has a strong or reasonable weaker foot can be useful. I played a match earlier in my save where the sole creator for the opposition was playing as an Inside Forward and was very fast, great first touch, high dribbling and brilliant long shots. He was their top goal scorer too. Looking at a few of his goals he loved to cut inside and dribble and shoot and score or provide a pass to another player to then score. Marking him tightly and pressing the player won’t work because he is just gonna knock the ball past them and beat them for pace. It’s what he had done in all of his previous games. So I set my player up not to man mark and not to press. Also noticing from his stats that when he was forced down the wing instead of cutting inside only 33% of his crosses were successful so I showed him onto that side and tried to get him to go down the wing because even if he manages to get a cross in I know I have good defenders with high positioning, jumping reach and heading so we should be able to deal with any crosses.

However be prepared for the AI to adapt and you will need to watch and react too. In the scenario above with the Inside Forward the AI decided to push their WB on that side forward and be more attacking so when the IF was cutting inside and because he couldn’t get past my pacey defender the AI decided to get the WB forward overlapping the IF and for the WB to get crosses in and it was working but with a little tweak of my FB being changed to a more defensive role and man marking the WB with pressing and hard tackling in opposition instructions because their WB didn’t have the first touch, dribbling or pace that the IF had. So it allowed him to be marked out of the game.

 

The game finished 2-2 but I was happy with the result as they were favourites and I was away but I managed to achieve what I set out to do and that was stop that IF from providing and scoring. In all honesty he did get an assist but it was from a corner as he was the corner taker and hands up it was a good goal. The other goal I conceded was a cross from the WB because I didn’t react quickly enough to the AI tweak during the first half where they pushed him more forward. 
 

Honestly the days of having 1 static tactic and it working forever have thankfully gone. You have to look at your opponents and adapt. Play to your strengths if you have a good defender use him to full effect, to stop the opposition . Real Life managers don’t play the same tactic exactly the same every single week, well unless you’re Steve Bruce!!