4141 Dm Wide, Short passing, False Nine

[Englishhammer]

First post, be gentle. Don’t get me wrong, I know this is “shoe-horning wanted tactics onto not always suitable players”. But in a nutshell I would like short, successful passing that can utilise a false nine. I’m not fussy on how I win the ball back, I just want to work the ball up patiently and give opportunities to anyone to have a crack at scoring. 
Yes....Haller isn’t the best False Nine but aside from replacing him, are there any other changes you’d implement? The team has good AML L and R options as Inside Forwards or Wingers. Rice is a bit of a waste if not played in DM so that’s why this formation is my chosen one. I understand there could be more “passing triangles” but my thinking was an attacking Mezzala, Attacking IF and a F9 would help in that respect. 
 

I use CD as I think BPD would be too risky with my players, perhaps Ogbonna could. And I’ve always been indecisive with FB/WB and what to play. I did have some success with CWB recently actually too but figure they’re slightly more risky. So any comments please. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Englishhammer
Spelling

[Johnny Ace]

Your midfield & forward line look nicely set-up, the back-line looks alright apart from Fredericks out there as a WB(A), it's a bit risky on the right hand side with the IF(A), a WB(S) should be enough. I don't think you'd really need a BPD with a DLP just in front of your CDs, they'll look to play short balls to him & let him play the more adventurous passes    

As for the TI's I don't know, all seems a bit overkill to me but may play out fine for you. Like 3 in possession instructions may be a bit much. A Positive team mentally with shorter passing won't make all passes short, they'll be slightly shorter than the default on Positive so will about the same as on a Balanced team mentality. Then Counter & Counter press, I see it as one or the other, not both, both increase team risk. Then even higher lines when they'll be fairly high anyway on a Positive mentality. For Bayern Munich, that would all be fine but may be too much for a West Ham so I'd tone them down a touch     

[facman]

Initially the only things I would alter would be to go back to Standard Passing and remove WBIB. By all means play around with those TIs during testing, but I would start from a more middle-of-the-road setting to see how it plays out.

[Englishhammer]

Thanks guys. I’ll carry on tinkering about. I only added counter and counter press as almost every tactic I’ve seen have said to always have them. I can slaughter friendlies in double digits (big MLS teams) but lose to prem teams as soon as the season starts and have a naff season. I just want some consistency but can’t seem to find it on short passing = goals with West Ham yet. 

[Johnny Ace]

8 minutes ago, Englishhammer said:

Thanks guys. I’ll carry on tinkering about. I only added counter and counter press as almost every tactic I’ve seen have said to always have them. I can slaughter friendlies in double digits (big MLS teams) but lose to prem teams as soon as the season starts and have a naff season. I just want some consistency but can’t seem to find it on short passing = goals with West Ham yet. 

Yeah, that combo will most likely murder weaker opponents but can't imagine it would against the top half of the Premiership

Maybe just take the higher lines & counter press off in a game where you're not the favorite to win?

Is Seb Haller any good as a F9? I don't know a lot about him but with your system I'd think he'd be a great DLF(S)

  

Edited November 3, 2020 by Johnny Ace

[Englishhammer]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Yeah, that combo will most likely murder weaker opponents but can't imagine it would against the top half of the Premiership

Maybe just take the higher lines & counter press off in a game where you're not the favorite to win?

Is Seb Haller any good as a F9? I don't know a lot about him but with your system I'd think he'd be a great DLF(S)

  

He gets half a green circle and his stars aren’t great on that position either. He’s more suitable to a DLF definitely which I suppose is similar in some ways to a F9. I think I have to play him as that or buy a more suited F9 to make the tactics work better. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Englishhammer
Missed a word

[Johnny Ace]

Just now, Englishhammer said:

He gets half a green circle and his stars aren’t great on that position either. He’s more suitable to a DLF definitely which I suppose is similar in some ways to a F9. I think I have to play him as that or buy a more suited F9 to make the tactics work better. 

Yeah, give him a try, he's seems tall & strong, I just don't know how creative he is but he should combine well with the Inside Forward & Mezzala as a DLF 

[Experienced Defender]

Apart from an obvious defensive weakness on the right flank, I fear that your tactic is generally too ambitious for a team like West Ham. They are a good side, but not that much. 

Anyway, here are tweaks I would suggest in terms of roles and duties:

F9

IWsu                             IFat

MEZat   DLPsu

HB

WBsu   CDde  CDde  WBsu

SKsu

A couple of instructions would probably need some adjustment as well, but let's go step by step.

[Englishhammer]

59 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Apart from an obvious defensive weakness on the right flank, I fear that your tactic is generally too ambitious for a team like West Ham. They are a good side, but not that much. 

Anyway, here are tweaks I would suggest in terms of roles and duties:

F9

IWsu                             IFat

MEZat   DLPsu

HB

WBsu   CDde  CDde  WBsu

SKsu

A couple of instructions would probably need some adjustment as well, but let's go step by step.

I know I completely agree, I’m just a dreamer. Lol. Out of interest does anyone know if any other tactics that aren’t this that would suit the hammers on FM20. Obviously there’s Knap plug n play which obviously is fine. But if I can’t have F9, 4123 DM I’d at least like to still have the dream of a tactic that doesn’t have every team instruction turned on. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Englishhammer said:

Out of interest does anyone know if any other tactics that aren’t this that would suit the hammers on FM20. Obviously there’s Knap plug n play which obviously is fine

If you are looking for a plug'n'play kind of tactic, this section of the forum is probably not the right place. Because in this regular tactical forum, only normal and realistic tactics are discussed. Plug'n'play - including knap's - can be found in the upload/download section. 

 

1 hour ago, Englishhammer said:

But if I can’t have F9, 4123 DM I’d at least like to still have the dream of a tactic that doesn’t have every team instruction turned on

Well, your current tactic does not have every instruction turned on. But if you are still looking for a PnP tactic instead, the problem is that they all have way too many instructions. 

Also an important question is what do you expect from a tactic in terms of results? In other words, do you want a tactic that will allow you to win the title with West Ham in the first season already or just to either meet or slightly exceed board expectations/media prediction? 

[Englishhammer]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you are looking for a plug'n'play kind of tactic, this section of the forum is probably not the right place. Because in this regular tactical forum, only normal and realistic tactics are discussed. Plug'n'play - including knap's - can be found in the upload/download section. 

 

Well, your current tactic does not have every instruction turned on. But if you are still looking for a PnP tactic instead, the problem is that they all have way too many instructions. 

Also an important question is what do you expect from a tactic in terms of results? In other words, do you want a tactic that will allow you to win the title with West Ham in the first season already or just to either meet or slightly exceed board expectations/media prediction? 

Perhaps I worded that wrong. I don’t want a plug and play, I was just curious what formations had worked with West Ham. 
I do want it to be realistic, anything above top ten in first season is good. 
 

Anyway I’ve made some alterations and making Haller a DLF instead of a F9, simplifying even more and taking your points into consideration I’ve already started better.

It kept saying Anderson was losing possession so I chose “pass it shorter” when he plays. Not sure if that will solve it.

My Ass.Manager tells me EVERY game to pass it short but I ignore him as possession is usually 50-60% (80% pre season) and completed passes are always over 80%. Is that good enough to not warrant changes?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Englishhammer said:

Perhaps I worded that wrong. I don’t want a plug and play, I was just curious what formations had worked with West Ham

When it comes to formations, the one you are already using - 4141dm wide a.k.a. 4123 wide - looks like a very good choice for West Ham. But more important is how you set up the tactic within that formation. 

 

1 hour ago, Englishhammer said:

Anyway I’ve made some alterations and making Haller a DLF instead of a F9

That's a good move. because Haller's attributes are really more suitable for DLF than F9. Plus, switching from F9 to DLF does not disrupt the overall balance of the tactic, which is good  

 

1 hour ago, Englishhammer said:

It kept saying Anderson was losing possession so I chose “pass it shorter” when he plays. Not sure if that will solve it

I don't think that you should change a team instruction for one player's sake, whoever he is. If a player (Anderson) losses possession too often, then a better idea is to change his individual passing into shorter. Although Anderson is not the type of player that should be expected to give the ball away cheaply. 

 

1 hour ago, Englishhammer said:

My Ass.Manager tells me EVERY game to pass it short but I ignore him as possession is usually 50-60% (80% pre season) and completed passes are always over 80%. Is that good enough to not warrant changes?

First, do not pay (much) attention to what the ass man suggests, because his advice can often be misleading because it's based on his tactical approach, which can be quite different from yours. Follow your common sense and what you see on the pitch, not the ass man's suggestions. 

And yes, such possession and pass completion stats are very good for West Ham IMHO (although I personally don't care a lot about possession in terms of pure statistics). 

[facman]

Yes, I wouldn’t worry too much about possession. I just won 2-0 against Man U with 37% possession. They had a total of 1 shot in the first half!

In terms of your tactical approach, I’d consider adding Counter and More Direct Passing against better teams who will come at you, you can then hit them on the break with your more advanced wide players acting as an outlet.

[Englishhammer]

Finished 8th in the first season by not playing for the cups. Surprising actually because I had 16 losses. The last few games were atrocious though. I had no injuries so it must have been tactical problems. In those games I don’t think I was working hard enough to get the ball back and gave everyone too much time to shoot so I’ll have to tweak that. One assumes theAI has discovered how I play and I need to change 1 or 2 things. 

Thoughts :-
I don’t seem to “see much” from Rice compared to when he’s been Dm-de/DLP in other games, so pondering changing him to an Anchorman (but maybe it just means he’s doing his job correctly if I’m hardly hearing from him).

My pressing intensity is already on “more urgent” yet I felt we gave everyone too much space, I wouldn’t have thought bumping it up would be wise. Is my answer more in the area of regroup/hold shape/narrow my width? Or even to do with my standard lines giving them too much thinking time? 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Englishhammer said:

because I had 16 losses. The last few games were atrocious though. I had no injuries so it must have been tactical problems

I think the major problem in your tactic is its defensive aspect - a bit too aggressive for the strength and quality of your team. 

 

4 hours ago, Englishhammer said:

 In those games I don’t think I was working hard enough to get the ball back and gave everyone too much time to shoot

Or rather, you were asking too much from your players defense-wise (in direct relation to what I just wrote above). Because what you want your players to do is one thing, but what they are actually capable of can be quite different.

Anyway, your end result is pretty good, but in the next season you definitely should improve the defensive aspect of your tactic IMHO. 

4 hours ago, Englishhammer said:

One assumes theAI has discovered how I play and I need to change 1 or 2 things

While you certainly need to change/tweak a couple of things, the AI cannot discover your tactic (i.e. how you play). What the AI can - and does - do is adapt its tactics to the change in your reputation following your results. So if you start overachieving, the AI will be more defensive against you than they otherwise would be, thus making it harder for you to break them down while looking to hit you on the counter by taking advantage of your aggressive defensive style. And the opposite if you are underachieving. 

 

4 hours ago, Englishhammer said:

My pressing intensity is already on “more urgent” yet I felt we gave everyone too much space

You are giving too much space precisely because of the increased pressing urgency, not in spite of it. Plus the counter-press might be too demanding for your players. Keep also in mind that the team mentality automatically affects how aggressive or passive you are when defending. 

[facman]

Don't forget that the mental side of the game can be important, particularly at busy times of the year (January is always a bogey month for me) or at season end. Teams can get complacent if they've had a string of good results (such as your April run) and get praised a bit too much in press conferences and at the end of a match. That may have combined with the tactical issues mentioned above to make you a bit more defensively leaky at the end of the season. I hope you roasted them after the 2-2 draw against Brighton?

[Johnny Ace]

The DLF would've fit in nicely & now you've plonked a PF(A) in their & set off my OCD  

[Englishhammer]

20 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

The DLF would've fit in nicely & now you've plonked a PF(A) in their & set off my OCD  

Haha. That’s an error on my part before the screenshot, it’s still DLF. 

[Englishhammer]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

You are giving too much space precisely because of the increased pressing urgency, not in spite of it. Plus the counter-press might be too demanding for your players. Keep also in mind that the team mentality automatically affects how aggressive or passive you are when defending. 

Ah thank you, I think from watching some youtubers I was misled over the whole space thing. 

[sporadicsmiles]

6 hours ago, Englishhammer said:

The last few games were atrocious though. I had no injuries so it must have been tactical problems

The last few games of the season? Were you contesting the European places at that point? This can lead to poor performances if you do not manage the pressure well. It is not necessarily a tactical thing. You need to reduce the pressure on your team in this period with press conferences and team talks. No amount of tactical prowess will save you if your team are like a deer in headlights when under pressure to perform. 

6 hours ago, Englishhammer said:

One assumes theAI has discovered how I play and I need to change 1 or 2 things. 

You can assume this, but you would be incorrect. The AI does not work out how you play, it will just alter its approach to you based on how you are performing. The better you do, the more they take you seriously and will look to restrict you rather than attack you. And you have to keep in mind that you can sometimes lose a few games without having to massively change your approach. Aside from what I mentioned before perhaps you just match up badly against those teams. 4141 like this is pretty resilient to other formations, but you could have issues against direct 442, for example, with your setup. You can make changes on a match by match basis based on what you notice. However since you finished 8th I'd say things are going pretty well. 

6 hours ago, Englishhammer said:

I don’t seem to “see much” from Rice compared to when he’s been Dm-de/DLP in other games, so pondering changing him to an Anchorman (but maybe it just means he’s doing his job correctly if I’m hardly hearing from him).

In this kind of formation (unless you play a HB), then the DMC has two jobs. He is there to screen against counter attacks and help out in that phase (closing down, intercepting long passes, etc). And he is the pivot you will look to turn your attacks around. As the player who is deepest, he is the natural outlet ball when your team looks to focus the point of attack. So really you want a good all round player here. In my variant of this formation, the DMC is one of the key players. It will not get noted in his match ratings, because his job typically is not the one that gets ratings in the game. It is one of those things you ignore and make sure he is doing what you need him to do.

The question then becomes what do you want to see from this player? A half back does not really function as a pivot, it shifts more towards a defender (the opposite trend happens if you use, for instance, a DLP(S) there). The thing to think about is where you want him when you have the ball, and what you want him to do. If he does that, it is fine. 

6 hours ago, Englishhammer said:

My pressing intensity is already on “more urgent” yet I felt we gave everyone too much space, I wouldn’t have thought bumping it up would be wise. Is my answer more in the area of regroup/hold shape/narrow my width? Or even to do with my standard lines giving them too much thinking time? 

The 4141 will always cede space in the opposition third when you do not have the ball. You simply are not set up to flood that area of the pitch when out of possession. I tend to employ a split press with this formation. The front 3 (or 4 if I include the most attacking CM) will have individual press more instructions, and the rest of the team at default. And I use counter press, but not close down more. OIs if I want to target an area of the pitch for pressing. This way you can get some pressure on the opposition in their own half, and focus on being defensively sound at the same time. The idea here is that if the AI looks to play from defence, we can harass them, but at the same time congest our own half so there are no easy outlets. Remember that if you are closing down too hard in all areas of the pitch you will leave holes that can be exploited. Pressing is not always the answer, and not the only way to defend. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

The DLF would've fit in nicely & now you've plonked a PF(A) in their & set off my OCD  

Great observation mate 

I've only now noticed the OP changed DLF into PF on attack, which is not an ideal partnership with an IF on attack duty. So if you @Englishhammer want the IF on attack duty, then better change the striker's role back into DLF. Or at least change the PF's duty into support as an alternative option.