Direct attacking 4141 dm wide - Feedback please

[Karlo]

Hello everyone,

I have been following this forum for a long time and by reading a lot and trying to apply it in FM20 I have already learned a lot. Thank you for this.

Now I am trying to create some tactics for myself that I can apply to the different clubs I manage, with different playing styles. And I still have some difficulty with that for the time being.

For example with Real Madrid, where I want to use a direct attacking style of play in a 4-1-4-1 dm wide formation. The counter may also be used. The best thing would be that this is accompanied by good results without the tactic itself being very extreme in terms of TIs and PIs. And I also don't want to be dependent on set pieces.

Currently the results are very mixed. We lose too many points and we score too few. Logically we have very good players and that is why I expect more from my team. If you would like to see a screenshot of a particular player, please let me know.
 

(no additional PIs except 'close down more' for AMR and AML)


Do you have feedback so that I can make the tactic even better and more stable? Thank you very much in advance!
 

[zabyl]

CF or TM roles are more suitable for lone forward direct plays. Also your lb is a WB with attack duty behind an IWs. Think about direct plays. You have 3 attacking players and only 2 of them mostly run empty spaces behind defence. 

If I manage this team with a direct attacking style I could change;

-WBa to WBs

-IWs to IFa/IWa

Also I could choose a playmaker role on DM position because I want my most important creative passer to be comfortable with ball and not pressed too much. With this he can throw quality balls without too much pressure.

Low crosses are mostly cutbacks and they suit creative short passing styles i think. Whipped crosses can be a better choice for your team if your front 3 have good pace and not good  on aerial plays.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Karlo said:

Even though you want to play direct attacking football, you probably do not need to use both more direct passing and much higher tempo when you already play on the Attacking team mentality. Because such a high team mentality already makes you attacking play proportionally faster and more direct. That's the first thing I noticed in your tactic as a potential problem. 

Roles and duties don't look bad, so the only tweak I personally would be tempted to make is changing the MCL from BBM into carrilero or BWM on support. Because you need not just better defensive cover for that attacking wing-back on the left but also a role that would be in a better position to help recycle possession when needed. 

[summatsupeer]

I mostly agree with Experience Defender (above) on many points but would do slightly different changes.

I would:

• Remove More Direct Passing, Pass Into Space, Much Higher Tempo.  Just leave on default.  Attacking is already quick direct and risky by default, adding more on top is likely rushing things so much the players struggle to keep up.
• Remove Counter Press.  Let opponent out a bit to create space to attack.
• Make AP-Su an AP-At.  Then swap BBM and AP. This is try to overload that left flank with good dribblers + passers to create space for the AMR and later arriving BBM and get them the ball via cross or switch of play pass.
• Make IW-At (AMR) a IF-At.  This is so he will look to play through the ST a bit more.

The left might be a bit open but you have a good DM and the DR could be made more conservative (FB-Su) if needed.  The DCL would need to be the best at defending space since he is more likely going to have to cover that flank compared to how often the DCR has to cover the right as the DR should be caught out of position less.

Edited October 5, 2020 by summatsupeer

[Karlo]

Thank you @zabyl @Experienced Defender @summatsupeer so far.

I see two of you mention the attacking mentality, might it be wiser to start with postive?

The tweaks you propose vary a lot. I made the following, what do you think about this?




 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Karlo

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Karlo said:

Roles and duties look good now IMHO, just make sure you have the right types of players playing them. 

As for instructions, you'll have to try the tactic and see if you need to tweak a bit more or not. For example, pass into space could prove problematic, given that you manage Real, so you can hardly expect the opposition to leave you that space + your already fast attacking play can lead to a lot of passing mistakes when coupled with passing into space. 

[Karlo]

11 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Roles and duties look good now IMHO, just make sure you have the right types of players playing them. 

As for instructions, you'll have to try the tactic and see if you need to tweak a bit more or not. For example, pass into space could prove problematic, given that you manage Real, so you can hardly expect the opposition to leave you that space + your already fast attacking play can lead to a lot of passing mistakes when coupled with passing into space. 

Thank you.

I have always thought that pass into space helps when playing on the counter, as it creates balls behind the defense that the attackers can run into. But your point about this space probably not being there, because I play with Real Madrid and maybe because of that opponents play more defensively makes perfect sense.

I have played with the above tactics for half a season and I'm top together with Barcelona. A lot of 1-0 and 2-1 wins and still not quite the way I would like to see it. I expect more from this team. I will also see if I can attract a few players who are better suited to this system.

[Experienced Defender]

5 minutes ago, Karlo said:

I have always thought that pass into space helps when playing on the counter, as it creates balls behind the defense that the attackers can run into

Pass into space applies to every pass that is played into space in front of a teammate, not only those behind the oppo defense. For example, a CB can play pass into space for a FB/WB in the early build-up phase of play. 

[summatsupeer]

7 hours ago, Karlo said:

I see two of you mention the attacking mentality, might it be wiser to start with postive?

The tweaks you propose vary a lot. I made the following, what do you think about this?

The thing I would watch for is how isolated your front 3 get.  Positive with More Direct Passing, Higher Tempo and Pass Into Space rather than default Attacking mentality could compound this since the passing has been made riskier but the players aren't taking risks to get forward to provide runs for those passes.  Your only other attack duty (outside of 2 of your 3 forwards) is the AP-At, yes the WB-Su has Get Forward but is still a support duty so will be a bit safer about when to make those runs.  The AP-At might dribble it forward but no one is trying to get past him or the front 3 until your in the final third when the WB-Su is most likely to join the attack.  For a fast attacking system, the deepest 6 outfield players I think are too safe and more possession orientated.

The thing with Pass Into Space is from roles+duties you already have 2xBPD-De, AP-At, IF-At and CF-At who have Risky Passes Often.  Your then telling 2xWB-Su, DM-De, BWM-Su and IW-Su to also try Risky Passes Often rather than there default sometimes.  How good are these players at playing passes into space? Are they giving the ball away in risk positions?

 

[Karlo]

Based on both @Experienced Defender and @summatsupeer tips, I decided to make some cuts in the TIs and to adjust some roles. Could you please give feedback ?

As you can see I've gone back to attacking mentality.




+ split block for AMR and AML (ST on PF already has close down more).

[summatsupeer]

12 minutes ago, Karlo said:

Based on both @Experienced Defender and @summatsupeer tips, I decided to make some cuts in the TIs and to adjust some roles. Could you please give feedback ?

As you can see I've gone back to attacking mentality.




+ split block for AMR and AML (ST on PF already has close down more).

Just a note to beware combining specific changes from different sources as they might not combine well since they haven't taken into account the other persons advice.

I'm not a fan of MEZ with a wide forward who cuts inside, whilst this in theory "overloads" the channel I think it too often reduces options as 1 defender/midfielder can block the passing lane.  This is especially true when both are on the same mentality.  In this situation with PF-At, IF-At and WB-Su that MCR is too aggressive with no where to make his runs and would be better off supporting the PF & IF. But give it a try, it could work but IF YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING then as you have AP-Su i'd probably go with BBM-Su or CM-Su who can link and arrive later into box, can add additional PI if want to keep elements (risky passes) that the MEZ-At does without such focus on making runs into that channel.

[afailed10]

Those players don't look very suitable for a counter style tactic. Both Hazard and Asensio aren't particularly physical despite decently quick but direct football requires players who aren't just much faster but also strong in physical duels.  Lautaro is the same. The midfielders again, aren't fast enough as well. Honestly that cast is much more suited for more patient approach.

Get Haaland upfront, a more direct winger and a hard working b2b and you'll find it easier to implement that style of play. With that said, I'd look to keep a very high line of engagement to stretch your team vertically and have them upfront when you recover the ball. You lose compactness but you gain space to attack. 

 

[Experienced Defender]

8 hours ago, Karlo said:

 

8 hours ago, Karlo said:

Based on both @Experienced Defender and @summatsupeer tips, I decided to make some cuts in the TIs and to adjust some roles. Could you please give feedback ?

I personally would never suggest playing a mezzala and the wide fwd on the same duty when they are on the same side, especially not both on attack duty. The same applies to the WB on attack duty paired with an AP (on the left side). So I really don't know which of my "tips" you are referring to"? 

[Karlo]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

I personally would never suggest playing a mezzala and the wide fwd on the same duty when they are on the same side, especially not both on attack duty. The same applies to the WB on attack duty paired with an AP (on the left side). So I really don't know which of my "tips" you are referring to"? 

I was referring to removing pass into space which you advised.

I used a MEZ because I have Milinkovic-Savic who, in my opinion, can play this role very well and I also don't really have a pure right winger. In fact, I only have inverted wingers.

I have played a few matches again, but it is not going very well.

Could you maybe give me an idea of how you would setup a direct attacking 4123 (or 4141 dm wide) so that I can build on that?

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Karlo said:

I was referring to removing pass into space which you advised

Okay  

 

2 hours ago, Karlo said:

I used a MEZ because I have Milinkovic-Savic who, in my opinion, can play this role very well and I also don't really have a pure right winger. In fact, I only have inverted wingers

The problem is not the mezzala role itself. The problem is playing both the mezzala and the wide forward in front of him on the same duty. 

You play them like this:

         IFat

MEZat

I would play them like this:

           IFsu

MEZat

That was my point. In fact, I would rather couple the mezzala on attack with an IW (not IF) on support, for that matter. 

2 hours ago, Karlo said:

I have played a few matches again, but it is not going very well.

Could you maybe give me an idea of how you would setup a direct attacking 4123 (or 4141 dm wide) so that I can build on that?

Okay, here is what I would start with for that particular style of play (with as few changes to your current setup as possible):

PFat

Wat                                  IWsu

APsu     MEZat

HB

WBsu    CDde  BPDde    WBsu

SKsu

Positive - shorter passing, higher tempo, run at defence - counter, counter-press, distribute quickly to fullbacks - higher D-line, offside trap and split block (with the front 3 + mezzala)

That's it. Everything else would be just small in-match tweaks depending on what happens on the pitch during a match. For example, things like early crosses or/and slightly narrower width. 

But given that you manage a top team like Real, such approach may not always work. because you'll often face ultra-defensive opposition. So keep that in mind as well.

[Karlo]

Thank you, I have set up the above tactic and I have to say it is a bit better in terms of results, but still not consistent enough.

What strikes me is that Hazard performs extremely well as Wat with 12 goals in 12 games.
 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

During the match I tweak the attacking width, hit early crosses like @Experienced Defender indicated.

Work ball in the box is the instruction that my assistant recommends most. Both during the matches and in the tactics analysis section.

Would you add any of these instructions to the tactic by default?

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, Karlo said:

Work ball in the box is the instruction that my assistant recommends most

Do not follow the assistant's advice blindly. Base your tactical decisions on common sense and on what you personally observe during matches. I personally never listen to my assistant, because his tactical suggestions are based on his tactical approach and preferences, which can be very different from mine. You are the boss, not him. 

 

5 minutes ago, Karlo said:

I have set up the above tactic and I have to say it is a bit better in terms of results, but still not consistent enough

As I warned you in my previous post, the fact that you manage a top team means that this style of football is not always going to work, hence the inconsistency. 

A tweak you can try is to reduce the tempo to standard (default) instead of higher. Also remove the Counter TI, especially against defensive opposition. 

 

9 minutes ago, Karlo said:

What strikes me is that Hazard performs extremely well as Wat with 12 goals in 12 games

I don't see anything strange about that - Hazard is a world-class player + winger on attack in AML as a role fits perfectly in with the rest of the setup. 

[Karlo]

On 09/10/2020 at 22:57, Experienced Defender said:

 

Positive - shorter passing, higher tempo, run at defence - counter, counter-press, distribute quickly to fullbacks - higher D-line, offside trap and split block (with the front 3 + mezzala)

Just to be sure, didn't you mean more direct passing?

Because I now have the idea that the set-up of the tactic is more of a pass and move.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Karlo said:

Just to be sure, didn't you mean more direct passing?

No, because the mentality is a high-risk one (Positive) and tempo is set to higher. That's why I would avoid more direct passing in such a setup, especially when you manage a top team like Real. 

Never forget the impact that the mentality has on all other instructions, including both passing directness and tempo. 

[Karlo]

To be honest, I am quite satisfied with how things are going now. The play is very nice to watch at times and I see certain aspects that I would like to see in a direct attacking 4123.

Barcelona is still better in La Liga and I am way too precarious in the cups and Europe.

Now it is time to take the next step, to really dominate. So the tactic looks like this:


+ split block MEZ - AMR - ST - AML.

Are there any additional tweaks I could do, for example also in terms of PIs or in-game tweaks that could really help me move forward?

Edited October 14, 2020 by Karlo