Please Help

[Ciderarmy]

So after getting Bristol City promoted to the prem I’m having real problems with my away form and need advice.

At home my tactics are working with 1 defeat in 7 but away we have lost 8 out of 8 so lots of help needed 

My formation is 4-4-1-1 and lines up as follows 

sweeper keeper on support 

lfb on support 

cb defend

bpd defend

rfb on support 

left winger attack 

lcm box to box support 

rcm dlp defend

rw inverted winger

shadow striker attack

dlf on support or pf on support 

Team instructions are

attacking width wide

play out of defence 

overlap right

standard passing

standard tempo

hit early crosses 

counter press 

counter

Higher defensive line 

Much higher line of engagement 

Standard pressing

I don’t really know why we’re ok at home but awful away and need advice thanks

[RyanBrown]

You have to remember you are a newly promoted team in one of the toughest leagues going. I would maybe adjust your tactic for away games to be a little more counter attacking. Potentially have a lower defensive line too, because of the pace and confidence players might have at home.

[Ciderarmy]

Thanks, so you think I should use the pre set counter tactic with a desperate line and what would you suggest with line of engagement?

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

rw inverted winger

On which duty?

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

Team instructions are

attacking width wide

play out of defence 

overlap right

standard passing

standard tempo

hit early crosses 

counter press 

counter

Higher defensive line 

Much higher line of engagement 

Standard pressing

What about the mentality?

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

Higher defensive line 

Much higher line of engagement 

For a system without a DM such as 4411, this DL/LOE combination means relatively poor vertical compactness, especially for a newly-promoted team and hence most probably a relegation candidate. 

 

2 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

counter press

Can be a double-edged sword as well.

[Ciderarmy]

Hi experience defender I use balanced mentality and my iw is on support 

[Ciderarmy]

Yep we are predicated to finish 20th but I’m reluctant to change as my home from is really good I’m just wondering if I can use the same tactics away from home but make it more solid 

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, Ciderarmy said:

Hi experience defender I use balanced mentality and my iw is on support 

Okay, so this is your current tactic:

DLF/PFsu

SS

Wat     BBM    DLPde     IWsu

FBsu     CDde    BPDde    FBsu

SKsu

Balanced

- play out of defence, play wider, overlap right, hit early crosses

- counter, counter-press

- higher DL, much higher LOE

And these would be my suggestions for you to consider...

1. change the right back's role to either WBsu or FBat and remove the Overlap right (because that will allow for a natural overlap without reducing the mentality of your right midfielder (IWsu)

2. Improve the vertical compactness by reducing the distance between DL and LOE (possible combinations include: higher DL/higher LOE; higher DL/standard LOE; standard DL/stanard LOE; and standard DL/lower LOE)

3. remove counter-press, because your players are probably not good enough to play that way in the Premier League (or use it only situationally)

Questions:

1. What's the idea behind early crosses in this particular tactic?

2. The same question for the wide attacking width?

[Ciderarmy]

Hi experience defender I played with early crosses as my striker has incredible pace I was hoping if I can get a cross in early he might catch the opposition pushing out 

I also played wide as my wingers are my best players but if I played more narrow would we be more compact 

Its a tricky one as at home we are doing really well but just can’t pick anything away from home 

Maybe I should change tactics away from home and go 4-1-4-1?

[frukox]

If you think your CBs are weak and find them to be out of position occassionally you can benefit from 1-2DM formations.

By the way who are you crossing to? There is no one in the penalty area when you are attacking fast. Think about who is going to be on the end of it? DLF and IW will join the attack later. WA will stay wide unless the game is played on the right-hand side. SS will be quick to get in the area but what if the wingers dribbled with the ball and decided on an early cross. Who would be there?

Edited December 3, 2019 by frukox

[Experienced Defender]

8 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

Hi experience defender I played with early crosses as my striker has incredible pace I was hoping if I can get a cross in early he might catch the opposition pushing out

Okay, but that's basically a counter-attacking strategy, which means that a higher (let alone much higher) LOE does not make much sense (unless you dominate the opposition, camping in and around their box with a considerable number of your players ready to attack the ball at any point, like Klopp's LIverpool in real life for example). So it's yet another reason for you to consider dropping your LOE a bit (to standard for example, if not lower).

8 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

I also played wide as my wingers are my best players but if I played more narrow would we be more compact

When it comes to width, the best approach IMHO is to start with the default width and then watch the match and see if it needs to be either increased or reduced a bit or left on default. 

 

8 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

Its a tricky one as at home we are doing really well but just can’t pick anything away from home 

Maybe I should change tactics away from home and go 4-1-4-1?

Not sure that changing the formation entirely would be a good idea. If your 4411 tactic works well at home, then I would make just a couple of tweaks to adapt it to away and/or tougher matches, but the tactic would essentially remain pretty much same. I'll get back later to tell you in more detail what I would do.

[Ciderarmy]

Thanks I look forward to your advice later 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

Thanks I look forward to your advice later 

Okay, so if this is your current setup: 

 

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

DLF/PFsu

SS

Wat     BBM    DLPde     IWsu

FBsu     CDde    BPDde    FBsu

SKsu

And these are the tweaks I suggested: 

 

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

1. change the right back's role to either WBsu or FBat and remove the Overlap right (because that will allow for a natural overlap without reducing the mentality of your right midfielder (IWsu)

2. Improve the vertical compactness by reducing the distance between DL and LOE (possible combinations include: higher DL/higher LOE; higher DL/standard LOE; standard DL/stanard LOE; and standard DL/lower LOE)

3. remove counter-press, because your players are probably not good enough to play that way in the Premier League (or use it only situationally)

Then this is how your new (slightly modified) home tactic might look: 

DLF/PFsu

SS

Wat/WMat     BBM    DLPde    IWsu

FBsu       BPDde     CDde      FBat

SKsu

As you can see, I just changed the RB's duty from support to attack to allow for the natural overlap instead of using the "Overlap right" instruction. Another possible tweak for you to consider is changing the LM from winger on attack into WM on attack, simply because the latter is a bit more defensively responsible due to the nature of the role. 

In terms of instructions, you currently use these: 

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Balanced

- play out of defence, play wider, overlap right, hit early crosses

- counter, counter-press

- higher DL, much higher LOE

As I already said, the "overlap right" can/should now be removed as we have a natural overlap on that flank. Play wider may also not be necessary all the time, so use it situationally instead. The same basically applies to the "Hit early crosses" TI - experiment a bit and see how the team behaves both with and without the instruction to determine if it makes sense or not (or when it makes more or less sense). The "Play out of defence" is okay, just be careful when playing against top-heavy formations (e.g. 4231 or 424) and/or against teams that are pressing you aggressively and high up the pitch. If you notice that your players are struggling to bring the ball out of defence when under pressure, just turn the instruction off. 

When it comes to transitional instructions, I would also suggest you use both counter and counter-press situationally. Again, it's important to watch your matches at least in the comprehensive mode to see when either instruction would make sense. 

Finally, the most tricky part is setting up your DL and LOE. Here I again have to re-quote myself: 

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Improve the vertical compactness by reducing the distance between DL and LOE (possible combinations include: higher DL/higher LOE; higher DL/standard LOE; standard DL/stanard LOE; and standard DL/lower LOE)

Try each of these combos to see which one suits your team optimally. 

For away matches (and/or against strong opposition), I would make just a couple of really small tweaks. Take a look:

DLFat

SS

Wsu/WMsu    BBM   DLPde/CMde     IWsu

FBsu       CDde       CD/BPDde       FBat/WBsu

SKsu

Note that I only swapped the duties of your lone striker and left midfielder around - so the DLF is now on attack duty, whereas the left winger/WM is on support. This will essentially make the setup a bit more defensively solid and counter-attack-minded. Here the "Hit early crosses" instruction should be more effective than in the original tactic (and you can sometimes even pair it with the "Pass into space".

The line of engagement should not be higher than standard in this away version of your tactic, in order to allow you to create more space for counter-attacks. 

If you have any questions, feel free to ask 

[Ciderarmy]

Many thanks experience defender for taking the time to help I’m gonna play a few games tonight and use your instructions and see how it works

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

Many thanks experience defender for taking the time to help I’m gonna play a few games tonight and use your instructions and see how it works

Report how it works and whether you noticed any issues 

[Ciderarmy]

Hi experience defender played a few games last night tweak a couple things with your advice and went 5 unbeaten but now no win in 7 and I have no clue what is going wrong as in that 5 unbeaten run I beat Stoke away 5-0 and beat Liverpool 3-0 at home and now even at home form has fallen of a cliff 

This is the thing that frustrates me about fm things can go wrong so quickly and there’s no reason why 

i get that i was expected to be in a relegation battle but to go unbeaten for 5 games with 4 wins on a spin then not win for the next 7 is really strange 

I would understand it if I had of change players and gone crazy with tactics but to me I have a good balance in my tactics fm driving me crazy again 

[frukox]

41 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

Hi experience defender played a few games last night tweak a couple things with your advice and went 5 unbeaten but now no win in 7 and I have no clue what is going wrong as in that 5 unbeaten run I beat Stoke away 5-0 and beat Liverpool 3-0 at home and now even at home form has fallen of a cliff 

This is the thing that frustrates me about fm things can go wrong so quickly and there’s no reason why 

i get that i was expected to be in a relegation battle but to go unbeaten for 5 games with 4 wins on a spin then not win for the next 7 is really strange 

I would understand it if I had of change players and gone crazy with tactics but to me I have a good balance in my tactics fm driving me crazy again 

The teams in your league now have become cautious of your progress and now it seems you have to create your own space as they are likely to sit deeper and look for quick transitions. Try tweaking your tactic towards a possession-based approach. Lowering LoE might make the defending team come out of their defensive third a little bit more and this may give you some space to work with.

Edited December 4, 2019 by frukox

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

Hi experience defender played a few games last night tweak a couple things with your advice and went 5 unbeaten but now no win in 7 and I have no clue what is going wrong as in that 5 unbeaten run I beat Stoke away 5-0 and beat Liverpool 3-0 at home and now even at home form has fallen of a cliff 

This is the thing that frustrates me about fm things can go wrong so quickly and there’s no reason why 

i get that i was expected to be in a relegation battle but to go unbeaten for 5 games with 4 wins on a spin then not win for the next 7 is really strange 

I would understand it if I had of change players and gone crazy with tactics but to me I have a good balance in my tactics fm driving me crazy again 

 

3 hours ago, frukox said:

The teams in your league now have become cautious of your progress and now it seems you have to create your own space as they are likely to sit deeper and look for quick transitions

I think frukox is right. That's what usually happens when an underdog team starts overachieving. Other teams begin to respect you more than they did and adapt their tactics accordingly. 

Btw, I fear that you are playing the game too fast. I mean, you have played as many as 12 matches since the last night, which means that you don't bother watching your matches in more detail (let alone analyzing them). With such an approach, you can hardly manage to spot the potential issues in your tactic and make appropriate tweaks.

[Ciderarmy]

Hi experience defender when you’re struggling how do you analyse what’s going wrong as that’s where I struggle 

[jc577]

8 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

Hi experience defender when you’re struggling how do you analyse what’s going wrong as that’s where I struggle 

There’s a great thread on here titled ‘Making good decisions during matches’ give that a read  in short, the OP (forgotten his name) makes changes based on what he sees. For example, are you team winning second balls/long balls from goal kicks or from deep? If not, why is that the case? Perhaps your defensive line is too low, or there is not enough pressure on the ball carrier in their own half... could be a combination of both. 

Another example could be your full-back is continually getting destroyed by the opposition’s winger; it could be a physical mismatch, or perhaps his starting position is too deep and allows the winger to build ahead of steam. 

The majority of tweaks we can/should make our basic ones, but it requires knowledge of your system and a tiny analysis of what the opposition are trying to do.