Inside forward help

[Breezybaby1]

Back again with a new tactic to get straight to the point I’d ideally love to get my front three banging in goals... or even just one... struggling to see any incisive throughballs or anything. My main aim is just to get martial Pépé and lukaku scoring but instead I just seem to be shut out most games scraping 1-0 wins. I also don’t want to rely on too many crosses in the box especially when a team is defending team and seem to have positional ratings of a god. Now reasoning for TI 

more direct - simply if you see it play the damn ball

play out of defence - don’t want to hoof it straight back to them. 

 Whipped crosses - this is a experiment so far so no real reason 

[Experienced Defender]

If you want to play with Lukaku as the lone striker in a 4141dm wide system  - but don't want to use him as a TM (which is his "most natural" role) - then I would play him as a PF on support. However, it seems to me that you again - as with Cardiff - are failing to take a proper look at your players and their strengths and weaknesses, both when creating tactics and dealing in the transfer market. 

Anyway, I'll tell you what I would change in your tactic (without changing the mentality, formation and your selection of players), based on what you described in the opening post.

Roles and duties

PFsu

IFat                                      IFsu

MEZsu     DLPsu

HB

FBsu     CDde    CDco     FBat

GK/SKde

Team instructions

Mentality - Positive

In possession - play out of defence, higher tempo, work ball into box

In transition - counter, counter-press, distribute to CBs & FBs

Out of possession - higher DL, higher LOE, prevent short GKD

Player instructions

GK/SKde - De Gea - take fewer risks

DCR/CDco - Bailly - take fewer risks

DL/FBsu - Tierney - sit narrower, cross more often

DR/FBat - Wan-BIssaka - stay wider

DMC/HB - Matic - mark tighter

MCL/MEZsu - Pogba - mark tighter

MCR/DLPsu - Herrera - mark tighter

AMR/IFsu - Pepe - sit narrower

STC/PFsu - Lukaku - roam from position, move into channels

If you want some more explanation on the above tactical decisions, feel free to ask me 

 

 

 

 

[Breezybaby1]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you want to play with Lukaku as the lone striker in a 4141dm wide system  - but don't want to use him as a TM (which is his "most natural" role) - then I would play him as a PF on support. However, it seems to me that you again - as with Cardiff - are failing to take a proper look at your players and their strengths and weaknesses, both when creating tactics and dealing in the transfer market. 

Anyway, I'll tell you what I would change in your tactic (without changing the mentality, formation and your selection of players), based on what you described in the opening post.

Roles and duties

PFsu

IFat                                      IFsu

MEZsu     DLPsu

HB

FBsu     CDde    CDco     FBat

GK/SKde

Team instructions

Mentality - Positive

In possession - play out of defence, higher tempo, work ball into box

In transition - counter, counter-press, distribute to CBs & FBs

Out of possession - higher DL, higher LOE, prevent short GKD

Player instructions

GK/SKde - De Gea - take fewer risks

DCR/CDco - Bailly - take fewer risks

DL/FBsu - Tierney - sit narrower, cross more often

DR/FBat - Wan-BIssaka - stay wider

DMC/HB - Matic - mark tighter

MCL/MEZsu - Pogba - mark tighter

MCR/DLPsu - Herrera - mark tighter

AMR/IFsu - Pepe - sit narrower

STC/PFsu - Lukaku - roam from position, move into channels

If you want some more explanation on the above tactical decisions, feel free to ask me 

 

 

 

 

I’ve taken a look I can’t really get rid of lukaku till next season or unless I could sell him only real question here is why the mark tighter for midfield, sit narrower for Pépé and a pf role for lukaku? 

[summatsupeer]

9 hours ago, Breezybaby1 said:

struggling to see any incisive throughballs or anything

I think everyone is too obsessed with through balls, expecting games to be open end to end but when your a big club its rare. Against deep defences your more likely to create through beating a player with a dribble and passes to feet after pulling the defence to one side then switching play inside or to opposite flank than trying to play behind them where there's no space.

I don't think your roles + duties are setup to do what you want. Even if they do push up and commit players forward, who's making the early attacking runs besides the ST and who's playing the risky passes?  If you really want that style all the time i'd look for a player deep to launch attacks and the front 5 to take more risks to get forward and support the ST.  You could develop two systems, one that suits Lukaku (keep it simple then get in the box) and one that suits Rashford making early runs against teams who try to attack you.

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

I’ve taken a look I can’t really get rid of lukaku till next season or unless I could sell him

I did not say that you should get rid of Lukaku. He is a great player, and I would always look to keep him in my team. I am more surprised at your decision to play Wan-BIssaka and Tierney as first-choice fullbacks. I am not sure if they are good enough for a team such as Man Utd at the moment.

 

6 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

only real question here is why the mark tighter for midfield, sit narrower for Pépé and a pf role for lukaku? 

Mark tighter for the midfield trio is to put as much pressure as possible on opposition when they are trying to build up an attack, in order to help your defenders. 

Sit narrower for Pepe to make him more involved in the build-up and to create more space for the attacking fullback on the right as an additional passing option in the final third.

PF role for Lukaku is based on his attributes. He lacks passing and vision for a CF or DLF, and you obviously don't want to play him as a TM because you want to avoid too many crosses. As a PF on support he would put some pressure on the opposition back-line while still being a dangerous presence in and around the box when you attack. I would play him as a TM on support in this system, but I guess it's not what you want.

[scwiffy]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you want to play with Lukaku as the lone striker in a 4141dm wide system  - but don't want to use him as a TM (which is his "most natural" role) - then I would play him as a PF on support. However, it seems to me that you again - as with Cardiff - are failing to take a proper look at your players and their strengths and weaknesses, both when creating tactics and dealing in the transfer market. 

Anyway, I'll tell you what I would change in your tactic (without changing the mentality, formation and your selection of players), based on what you described in the opening post.

Roles and duties

PFsu

IFat                                      IFsu

MEZsu     DLPsu

HB

FBsu     CDde    CDco     FBat

GK/SKde

Team instructions

Mentality - Positive

In possession - play out of defence, higher tempo, work ball into box

In transition - counter, counter-press, distribute to CBs & FBs

Out of possession - higher DL, higher LOE, prevent short GKD

Player instructions

GK/SKde - De Gea - take fewer risks

DCR/CDco - Bailly - take fewer risks

DL/FBsu - Tierney - sit narrower, cross more often

DR/FBat - Wan-BIssaka - stay wider

DMC/HB - Matic - mark tighter

MCL/MEZsu - Pogba - mark tighter

MCR/DLPsu - Herrera - mark tighter

AMR/IFsu - Pepe - sit narrower

STC/PFsu - Lukaku - roam from position, move into channels

If you want some more explanation on the above tactical decisions, feel free to ask me 

 

 

 

 

Think we need to start a Experienced Defender appreciation thread! You help everyone on here and the advice is concise, friendly and very helpful. I find a lot of members just replying “why would you do that?” Or something to that end. Answering a question with another question, sometimes even treating new players like idiots. I’ve been playing the game for years and still struggle, the fact is that this game isn’t easy!

[Breezybaby1]

38 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I think everyone is too obsessed with through balls, expecting games to be open end to end but when your a big club its rare. Against deep defences your more likely to create through beating a player with a dribble and passes to feet after pulling the defence to one side then switching play inside or to opposite flank than trying to play behind them where there's no space.

I don't think your roles + duties are setup to do what you want. Even if they do push up and commit players forward, who's making the early attacking runs besides the ST and who's playing the risky passes?  If you really want that style all the time i'd look for a player deep to launch attacks and the front 5 to take more risks to get forward and support the ST.  You could develop two systems, one that suits Lukaku (keep it simple then get in the box) and one that suits Rashford making early runs against teams who try to attack you.

I think it’s more of me when I watch this I hate the say as I’m a united support but city you’ll see them play little throughballs and cutbacks which is what I’m trying to implement.

36 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I did not say that you should get rid of Lukaku. He is a great player, and I would always look to keep him in my team. I am more surprised at your decision to play Wan-BIssaka and Tierney as first-choice fullbacks. I am not sure if they are good enough for a team such as Man Utd at the moment.

 

Mark tighter for the midfield trio is to put as much pressure as possible on opposition when they are trying to build up an attack, in order to help your defenders. 

Sit narrower for Pepe to make him more involved in the build-up and to create more space for the attacking fullback on the right as an additional passing option in the final third.

PF role for Lukaku is based on his attributes. He lacks passing and vision for a CF or DLF, and you obviously don't want to play him as a TM because you want to avoid too many crosses. As a PF on support he would put some pressure on the opposition back-line while still being a dangerous presence in and around the box when you attack. I would play him as a TM on support in this system, but I guess it's not what you want.

Tierany was just to give shaw some comp for a while and bissaka I believe it better than all my right backs and thanks for the explaintion and yes I’d rather not play lukaku as a TM cause it’s not the style of football I’m looking for is it true than using that duty sometimes they’ll just hoof it up to him which is something I’d rather avoid 

17 minutes ago, scwiffy said:

Think we need to start a Experienced Defender appreciation thread! You help everyone on here and the advice is concise, friendly and very helpful. I find a lot of members just replying “why would you do that?” Or something to that end. Answering a question with another question, sometimes even treating new players like idiots. I’ve been playing the game for years and still struggle, the fact is that this game isn’t easy!

Agreed not once has he ever made me feel low lol 

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, scwiffy said:

Think we need to start a Experienced Defender appreciation thread

Please do not exaggerate  

21 minutes ago, scwiffy said:

You help everyone on here and the advice is concise, friendly and very helpful

I do try to help as much as I can, but I also remember very well how much the help I was getting from more experienced tactical masters meant to me when I was struggling with tactics. 

24 minutes ago, scwiffy said:

I find a lot of members just replying “why would you do that?” Or something to that end

That's okay to me. I like when people want you to explain your tactical advice, rather than just blindly following what you said/wrote. The problem is that I don't always have time to explain everything in a single post, but instead will explain later if people ask me.

 

27 minutes ago, scwiffy said:

I’ve been playing the game for years and still struggle, the fact is that this game isn’t easy!

Absolutely. The FM is not an easy game, but that's exactly the reason I love it so much 

[Breezybaby1]

Another question would a advanced forward for lukaku be good well since he got the physicals, anticipation and off ball movement? I know of course it always comes down to the system but good role or is the TM PF more suited? 

[Tyrinko]

22 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Another question would a advanced forward for lukaku be good well since he got the physicals, anticipation and off ball movement? I know of course it always comes down to the system but good role or is the TM PF more suited? 

AF in 4-1-4-1 is problem, because there will be hole between your striker and central midfielders. One option is give one of your wingers AP role - this could help

[Breezybaby1]

1 minute ago, Tyrinko said:

AF in 4-1-4-1 is problem, because there will be hole between your striker and central midfielders. One option is give one of your wingers AP role - this could help

Ok so isolation as I’ve heard of course I’ve heard rule of thumb and not listen to rule of thumb which is why I get confused making tactics what exactly is a good lone striker role? 

[Experienced Defender]

53 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Another question would a advanced forward for lukaku be good well since he got the physicals, anticipation and off ball movement? I know of course it always comes down to the system but good role or is the TM PF more suited? 

Not really. A poacher would be a more suitable role for him than AF, but not in your system (because he would likely be isolated most of the time). So either a PF or TM (in both cases on support). I mean, you can experiment and try him as a poacher or PF on attack to see if and how that would work, but I fear it would require adjustments to some of the other players' roles.

[Breezybaby1]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Not really. A poacher would be a more suitable role for him than AF, but not in your system (because he would likely be isolated most of the time). So either a PF or TM (in both cases on support). I mean, you can experiment and try him as a poacher or PF on attack to see if and how that would work, but I fear it would require adjustments to some of the other players' roles.

And why is the support duties usually favoured in lone striker formations I love playing 4-1-4-1 and can never get strikers going however in another career I did with Dortmund doing 4231 I had my striker scoring left right and centre. A lot of what I read is obviously with a player not in a AMC strata the striker is of course isolated but then using the inside forward roles I’m assuming they’ll go into that position to then support him I know it’s kind of a brief explanation but when you start reading so many different ideas your mind kind of gets clouded sorry lol 

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, Breezybaby1 said:

I think it’s more of me when I watch this I hate the say as I’m a united support but city you’ll see them play little throughballs and cutbacks which is what I’m trying to implement.

But you haven't setup movement or passing patterns in your tactic to do that.  Your forward is playing on the shoulder whilst others are supporting and you've told them to play more direct passes on a Positive mentality.

Its also dependant on the players, Martial/Rashford are quite specialized runners+finishers whilst Sane/Sterling/Silva etc have better creative skills like Vision.  Even though its not been a part of his game until recently, Aguero drops and links more, and is better at it than Lukaku.  City use De Bruyne / Silva / Gundogan etc who all have better creative skills than even Pogba, who also has the shooting trait to hinder the around the box creativity but is better physically.

[Breezybaby1]

11 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

But you haven't setup movement or passing patterns in your tactic to do that.  Your forward is playing on the shoulder whilst others are supporting and you've told them to play more direct passes on a Positive mentality.

Its also dependant on the players, Martial/Rashford are quite specialized runners+finishers whilst Sane/Sterling/Silva etc have better creative skills like Vision.  Even though its not been a part of his game until recently, Aguero drops and links more, and is better at it than Lukaku.  City use De Bruyne / Silva / Gundogan etc who all have better creative skills than even Pogba, who also has the shooting trait to hinder the around the box creativity but is better physically.

So in other words a support duty for the striker? Combined with a if(a) then maybe mez (a) and shorter passing? 

[zlatanera]

@Breezybaby1 you would generally use a support striker for that sort of playing style, yes. But what you seemed to have missed there is that most of your strikers aren't really in that mould yet. Out of Rashford, Lukaku and Martial the highest vision is 10 (Lukaku) and passing 13 (Martial). Rashford, Martial and Sanchez all have traits that don't lend themselves to playing how Aguero does either. 

[Breezybaby1]

8 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

@Breezybaby1 you would generally use a support striker for that sort of playing style, yes. But what you seemed to have missed there is that most of your strikers aren't really in that mould yet. Out of Rashford, Lukaku and Martial the highest vision is 10 (Lukaku) and passing 13 (Martial). Rashford, Martial and Sanchez all have traits that don't lend themselves to playing how Aguero does either. 

Ok so this kind of helps me a bit more into getting the best out of them my especially my favourite player martial lol would you say this 4-1-4-1 isn’t getting the best out of them and maybe a 4231 is better until I can get myself a fiete arp or luatuaro Martinez who have great stats for a supporting striker?

[Tyrinko]

13 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Ok so this kind of helps me a bit more into getting the best out of them my especially my favourite player martial lol would you say this 4-1-4-1 isn’t getting the best out of them and maybe a 4231 is better until I can get myself a fiete arp or luatuaro Martinez who have great stats for a supporting striker?

I am in 5th season with HSV and Fiete Arp is great as DLFs (with two inside forwards), sometimes I switch him to F9 role which create space for my IFa to run direct to goal. If you don't want TM upfront I will try DLFs. Maybe try to learn PPM -Play simple passes to Lukaku.

[Breezybaby1]

4 minutes ago, Tyrinko said:

I am in 5th season with HSV and Fiete Arp is great as DLFs (with two inside forwards), sometimes I switch him to F9 role which create space for my IFa to run direct to goal. If you don't want TM upfront I will try DLFs. Maybe try to learn PPM -Play simple passes to Lukaku.

Yeah I had him on my Dortmund save him and guebbles just banged in goals for fun, would you say a striker with a lack of vision is better to be partnered or have someone in the amc strata rather than none at all? 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Breezybaby1 said:

And why is the support duties usually favoured in lone striker formations I love playing 4-1-4-1 and can never get strikers going however in another career I did with Dortmund doing 4231 I had my striker scoring left right and centre

First, 4141(dm wide) and 4231 are different systems. In 4231 you have more immediate support for the lone striker in the form of AMC (who is missing in 4141). It does not mean that you cannot play the lone striker on attack duty in a 4141 as well. Of course you can, but it's advisable:

1. to provide him with some more concrete support from deep runners (e.g. an attacking CM or mezzala), or a wide forward (depending on the overall setup, your desired style of play and types of players, it can be a winger on attack or APM on attack, trequartsita, and sometimes an IF on attack);

2. that the lone striker's role be a more "deeper-lying" one (such as DLF or PF), rather than more advanced (such as a poacher or AF), in order to reduce his inherent isolation

3. to consider not only the lone striker's attributes and traits (PPMs), but also those of other players, especially those who are supposed to work more closely with him, because if you assign wrong players to the roles (or vice versa), it's not going to work (even if the setup of roles and duties seems well-balanced by itself)

 

[Experienced Defender]

And btw, if I were to manage the current Man Utd side, I would probably opt for a 5212WB as my primary formation (with Pogba playing in the AMC spot, Lukaku as the strong "holding" striker, whereas the more mobile strike-partner would be rotated between Rashford, Martial and Sanchez respectively) 

[Breezybaby1]

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

First, 4141(dm wide) and 4231 are different systems. In 4231 you have more immediate support for the lone striker in the form of AMC (who is missing in 4141). It does not mean that you cannot play the lone striker on attack duty in a 4141 as well. Of course you can, but it's advisable:

1. to provide him with some more concrete support from deep runners (e.g. an attacking CM or mezzala), or a wide forward (depending on the overall setup, your desired style of play and types of players, it can be a winger on attack or APM on attack, trequartsita, and sometimes an IF on attack);

2. that the lone striker's role be a more "deeper-lying" one (such as DLF or PF), rather than more advanced (such as a poacher or AF), in order to reduce his inherent isolation

3. to consider not only the lone striker's attributes and traits (PPMs), but also those of other players, especially those who are supposed to work more closely with him, because if you assign wrong players to the roles (or vice versa), it's not going to work (even if the setup of roles and duties seems well-balanced by itself)

 

What sort of traits would hinder a dlf then I’d imagine it would be such thing as like to beat offside trap which rashford has id love a flexible formation of 4141 and 4231 the only reason I refrain from 4231 is obviously the gap between defence and mid which kind of leads me to my next question with no dm is it better to play my of my cb’s as a stopper

[Breezybaby1]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

And btw, if I were to manage the current Man Utd side, I would probably opt for a 5212WB as my primary formation (with Pogba playing in the AMC spot, Lukaku as the strong "holding" striker, whereas the more mobile strike-partner would be rotated between Rashford, Martial and Sanchez respectively) 

Sounds great but never played with those 5 or 3 at the back formations so that would be all new to me but might give that a go in a Cup game 

[Tyrinko]

53 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Yeah I had him on my Dortmund save him and guebbles just banged in goals for fun, would you say a striker with a lack of vision is better to be partnered or have someone in the amc strata rather than none at all? 

What is lack of vision? In my opinion if you can learn him to play simple passes it can work. Especially with Lukaku - strong player who can hold ball. Striker with AM is different formation, it is Up to you which goals would you like. Maybe try 4-1-4-1 with DLF, Winger on attack (RW) - Wan Bissaka could be WBd. RCM - Pogba role and maybe Mezzala. LW inside forward support - Martial. LB could be wing back attack to provide width. 

[Breezybaby1]

6 minutes ago, Tyrinko said:

What is lack of vision? In my opinion if you can learn him to play simple passes it can work. Especially with Lukaku - strong player who can hold ball. Striker with AM is different formation, it is Up to you which goals would you like. Maybe try 4-1-4-1 with DLF, Winger on attack (RW) - Wan Bissaka could be WBd. RCM - Pogba role and maybe Mezzala. LW inside forward support - Martial. LB could be wing back attack to provide width. 

I guess my thought process was him not being able to spot runs with his low vision but I can see ur point with the simple passes 

[Tyrinko]

2 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

I guess my thought process was him not being able to spot runs with his low vision but I can see ur point with the simple passes 

Every player in PL can see a runs. Maybe not so far like for example De Bruyne, but if you have one CM on attack duty, they are close together to help each other. Issue could be your direct passing with positive mentality - the play is rushed and 4-1-4-1 is formation where the support from deep areas is key. If you want direct passing you need more players upfront and together - here is 4-2-3-1 better because is heavy formation and with your current TI could be great counterattacking strategy.

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, Breezybaby1 said:

So in other words a support duty for the striker? Combined with a if(a) then maybe mez (a) and shorter passing? 

In other words even if you change your roles+duties, your using the same players, ones that aren't as creative so won't be as good at a possession style that tries intricate passing moves around the box.  Utds players are typically better physically so to get the best out of them i'd adjust your expectations of the type of moves you will have them try.  Your setup was more on the physical side than possession so didn't match that style anyway.

Why use shorter or more direct passing at all?

IF-At at AML is a good option that fits the players you have.  I switch the duty of my forward depending on what I see, the role is also important and not just the duty.  Lukaku as say PF-Su or TM-Su with IF-At and Pogba as AP-At (MCL) combine well.  Against teams who push up Rashford as PF-At can cause havoc even if his Anticipation (and other mentals) cause him to be offside more often that I like.  The rest of my tactic typically doesn't change unless I see something like at the end of games when opponents have a front 3 so I keep my FBs back.

Think how the roles+duties combine, if you change one how does it affect the others?  If I had a DLP-S in DMC then i'd likely not use a playmaker in CM, preferring for them to push up rather than trying to collect the ball.  But if they do that, do the wide forwards have space coming inside? Does a winger fit the system and players? If so then i'll likely have a more defensive type of a FB cover that side, maybe have them cover inside through PIs or as a IWB.  One simple role change and I might need 2 or 3 other positional changes, do I have the players to do it?  Lots of options but they need to fit the players.

[Breezybaby1]

6 minutes ago, Tyrinko said:

Every player in PL can see a runs. Maybe not so far like for example De Bruyne, but if you have one CM on attack duty, they are close together to help each other. Issue could be your direct passing with positive mentality - the play is rushed and 4-1-4-1 is formation where the support from deep areas is key. If you want direct passing you need more players upfront and together - here is 4-2-3-1 better because is heavy formation and with your current TI could be great counterattacking strategy.

Apperciate that Didn’t think about the passing directness like that which does kind of explain why I’ll have my striker or if going for a solo run with everyone else behind. 

[Breezybaby1]

5 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

In other words even if you change your roles+duties, your using the same players, ones that aren't as creative so won't be as good at a possession style that tries intricate passing moves around the box.  Utds players are typically better physically so to get the best out of them i'd adjust your expectations of the type of moves you will have them try.  Your setup was more on the physical side than possession so didn't match that style anyway.

Why use shorter or more direct passing at all?

IF-At at AML is a good option that fits the players you have.  I switch the duty of my forward depending on what I see, the role is also important and not just the duty.  Lukaku as say PF-Su or TM-Su with IF-At and Pogba as AP-At (MCL) combine well.  Against teams who push up Rashford as PF-At can cause havoc even if his Anticipation (and other mentals) cause him to be offside more often that I like.  The rest of my tactic typically doesn't change unless I see something like at the end of games when opponents have a front 3 so I keep my FBs back.

Think how the roles+duties combine, if you change one how does it affect the others?  If I had a DLP-S in DMC then i'd likely not use a playmaker in CM, preferring for them to push up rather than trying to collect the ball.  But if they do that, do the wide forwards have space coming inside? Does a winger fit the system and players? If so then i'll likely have a more defensive type of a FB cover that side, maybe have them cover inside through PIs or as a IWB.  One simple role change and I might need 2 or 3 other positional changes, do I have the players to do it?  Lots of options but they need to fit the players.

Appreciate this shows how naive and rushed I am when I make some of my tactics lots and things to figure out and probably players to ship out for how I want to play 

[Tyrinko]

26 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Appreciate this shows how naive and rushed I am when I make some of my tactics lots and things to figure out and probably players to ship out for how I want to play 

You have all you need to have succesful tactics. In future you can upgrade it, thats true, but you have squad full of great players.. Just take a paper and try to draw tactics, movement ( in your ideas) and when you have idea, try to create it in game.

[summatsupeer]

17 hours ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Appreciate this shows how naive and rushed I am when I make some of my tactics lots and things to figure out and probably players to ship out for how I want to play 

Dont see it as criticism, there's a lot more things to consider than when I started playing.

Keep things simple, if you want a certain style think about the players first. A fast/direct style benefits technical + physical players, a slower more intricate possession style needs better mentals.  Then there's less focused styles so dont just think in extremes, that's why I said do you even need to use more direct or shorter passing.

Once you have the balance of the individual players you need the balance of the team selection.  I say this as even the best tactics can play badly if the wrong players are used.  For example if both CM have get forwards often type traits and you have two IF and a attack ST, are they going to have space to make there runs?  If one has drops deep to collect ball does that fit or will you then have too many players deep and lack forward passing options, that's the type of thing I hated seeing Rooney doing like for England when he dropped to collect the ball 5 yards from stones rather than giving him an option between the defensive lines, not like stones can't pass well!

[Breezybaby1]

On 17/02/2019 at 23:03, Experienced Defender said:

And btw, if I were to manage the current Man Utd side, I would probably opt for a 5212WB as my primary formation (with Pogba playing in the AMC spot, Lukaku as the strong "holding" striker, whereas the more mobile strike-partner would be rotated between Rashford, Martial and Sanchez respectively) 

Had a nice little treble winning season  pogba was pretty much my everything in a mez (a) role. Still trying to get martial scoring consistently no luck as yet. Was thinking about the 5212 formation but never used a formation with 5 (or 3 at the back however you wanna go by it) I’m guessing the cm will mainly have to be holders as the wingbacks will be going forward providing the width? 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Had a nice little treble winning season  pogba was pretty much my everything in a mez (a) role. Still trying to get martial scoring consistently no luck as yet. Was thinking about the 5212 formation but never used a formation with 5 (or 3 at the back however you wanna go by it) I’m guessing the cm will mainly have to be holders as the wingbacks will be going forward providing the width?

If you have won a treble with your tactic, then better do not change it to a 5212. Because there is no need to change a tactic that obviously works great for you. 

Yes, CMs would be the holders with WBs bombing forward and providing width 

[Breezybaby1]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you have won a treble with your tactic, then better do not change it to a 5212. Because there is no need to change a tactic that obviously works great for you. 

Yes, CMs would be the holders with WBs bombing forward and providing width 

Yes it was pretty good one thing I learnt was I was always leaving my flanks open so I learnt I’ve either got to be conservative in the midfield or at the back at a certain side or both depending on what tweaks I wanted to make. Last question the counter ti in transitions I put it on without really knowing how it actually affects my play, I see that against certain teams like a Man City where they’re quite aggressive I can spring a nice counter but can that also lead to more rushed play and a loss off possession I know it’s a brief example but just trying to understand that ti abit more

[Experienced Defender]

15 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

the counter ti in transitions I put it on without really knowing how it actually affects my play

It tells your players to attempt a counter-attack after winning the ball whenever an at least decent opportunity arises. But it does not mean it will always succeed and lead to a goal for you. And yes, it carries some risk because your team's defensive shape is naturally disrupted during counter-attacks. But everything has its pros and cons 

[Breezybaby1]

23 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

It tells your players to attempt a counter-attack after winning the ball whenever an at least decent opportunity arises. But it does not mean it will always succeed and lead to a goal for you. And yes, it carries some risk because your team's defensive shape is naturally disrupted during counter-attacks. But everything has its pros and cons 

So this mezzala role I love it cause pogba is unstoppable lol but guilty pleasure i want my favourite player martial scoring and it just seems like this role is getting in the way which I would’ve thought opposite because martial would cut in and pogba would go wide is a mezzala role not exactly the best thing for a inside forward to flourish as much as I want it too? 

[zlatanera]

1 hour ago, Breezybaby1 said:

So this mezzala role I love it cause pogba is unstoppable lol but guilty pleasure i want my favourite player martial scoring and it just seems like this role is getting in the way which I would’ve thought opposite because martial would cut in and pogba would go wide is a mezzala role not exactly the best thing for a inside forward to flourish as much as I want it too? 

Mezzala generally goes for the half-spaces, which are the same areas the Inside forward moves through as they're cutting inside. So yeah they can get in each other's way, particularly if its IF-Su and Mez-At.

[Breezybaby1]

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

Mezzala generally goes for the half-spaces, which are the same areas the Inside forward moves through as they're cutting inside. So yeah they can get in each other's way, particularly if its IF-Su and Mez-At.

So maybe a b2bm or cm (a) would be better and not exactly get in martial way?

[zlatanera]

6 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

So maybe a b2bm or cm (a) would be better and not exactly get in martial way?

Yes I think so. But you're unlikely to get the same numbers out of Pogba if Martial is getting into goalscoring positions instead, so it depends what you want. If your tactic is working really well, you need to think about if you really want to change too much. It depends on the whole set-up too, its not as simple as changing Pogba's role and watching Martial start scoring for fun.

[Experienced Defender]

51 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

So maybe a b2bm or cm (a) would be better and not exactly get in martial way?

If you want to change Pogba's role from a mezzala to something else, then better go for a roaming PM. But what is the rest of your tactic? Because everything is interrelated and any change affects the tactic overall. Can you post a screenshot of your current tactic?

[Breezybaby1]

26 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you want to change Pogba's role from a mezzala to something else, then better go for a roaming PM. But what is the rest of your tactic? Because everything is interrelated and any change affects the tactic overall. Can you post a screenshot of your current tactic?

That’s currently my tactic now got paqueta on hold position for pi and I use to have pogba on a attack duty he was my top scorer and assist so I believe I know how to get pogba going 

[Breezybaby1]

7 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

That’s currently my tactic now got paqueta on hold position for pi and I use to have pogba on a attack duty he was my top scorer and assist so I believe I know how to get pogba going 

Also if I’m losing or drawing late in a game I’ll change to a 4231 and have 2 midfielders sitting and change my striker to a advanced forward doesn’t always work

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Breezybaby1 said:

I use to have pogba on a attack duty

Well, then it's no wonder that he and Martial (AML) sometimes "get into each other's way", which you complained about a few posts earlier (though "getting into each other's way" is not quite an accurate description).

[Breezybaby1]

35 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, then it's no wonder that he and Martial (AML) sometimes "get into each other's way", which you complained about a few posts earlier (though "getting into each other's way" is not quite an accurate description).

I did then drop it to support but seen no improvements so that’s why I was thinking of a different role for pogba 

[Experienced Defender]

33 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

I did then drop it to support but seen no improvements so that’s why I was thinking of a different role for pogba 

As I already said, I would try him as a RPM then.