An Analysis of Man Marking Player Behaviour

[isuckatfm]

An Analysis of Man Marking Player Behaviour

The point of this thread is to illustrate some aspects of player behaviour when set to Tight Man Marking and the negative effects of it in particular scenarios. There’ll also be bits and bobs about Zonal marking behaviour as well.

As a disclaimer all based on observation so I don’t know with absolute certainty that what follows is not just me adding 2 + 2 to get 5 so any disagreement is welcomed. Also I don’t know the extent to which individual attributes might affect player behaviour particularly with respect to decision making.

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Multiple Effects

Here’s some screenshots to illustrate the downside of tight man marking and it’s effects on

- defensive compactness leading to open passing lanes for midfielders to slot balls behind the defense

- related to the above, stretching of the defenders making your defensive width wider than intended

- midfielders set up to help out the defense holding position outside the box to man mark an opponent instead of dropping back when the ball gets deep to support the centre backs

- isolation of centre backs in 1v1 scenarios close to goal as tight man marking pulls the supporting defenders out of a position from which they could help

- opening up of space for forward running midfielders due to knock on separation of full backs from centre backs and centre back from centre back

- strikers getting an easy path to goal from a slightly wide position once they beat their marker due to no other players being close enough to make the ‘close down ballcarrier’ decision or not being goalside to do so

- full backs becoming redundant as they tight man mark a winger who has held his run and/or drifted out to a wide position, thus unable to help out the centre back

They are a bit messy but hopefully they’ll make sense. Within the screenshots there are two players, the ML and MR in a 442 set to Zonal Marking. The difference in behaviours is illustrated in the last screenshot by all players positional transition as the attack evolved in a dangerous area of the box.

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/2127/manmarking001ih6.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4053/manmarking002ms7.jpg

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9113/manmarking003qd5.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2000/manmarking004gq4.jpg

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7918/manmarking005fp9.jpg

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6055/manmarking007qt5.jpg

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2362/manmarking008il2.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8315/manmarking009bv1.jpg

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6820/manmarking010vh5.jpg

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/6706/manmarking011jj2.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8076/manmarking012fd8.jpg

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/6707/manmarking013sk7.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2977/manmarking014sj4.jpg

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/9829/manmarking015azn3.jpg

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The Dropping Off Striker Effect

A couple of examples of the ‘dropping off striker’ effect leaving space for the advanced midfielder as the centre back set to Tight Man Mark follows the striker when he holds his run on the edge of the box.

EXAMPLE 1

First screenshot shows Rooney in possession. Flick through the screenshots to see Arsenal CB #4 go to Man Utd #16 and Arsenal CB #5 stick to Rooney which opens up space for Scholes to move into as he loses his midfield marker.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3539/manmarking023jd3.jpg

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3120/manmarking024ik7.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8544/manmarking025ld1.jpg

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5465/manmarking026cx7.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6210/manmarking027ll8.jpg

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1651/manmarking028hi1.jpg

The tactical question to ask is did Arsenal MC #9 lose Scholes because he was set to Zonal Mark? Would he have picked him up if set to Tight Man Mark? Or was it simply a player mistake influenced by attributes? Does this mean you should match up marking choices to prevent space for the opposition? That’s up to you to decide

EXAMPLE 2

Man Utd attack again after initial attack cleared. Striker drops out of box, CB follows just for a moment but this leaves enough space for the advanced MC Scholes to dribble into the box past the MC arsenal #9 covering him.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/1056/manmarking029oh1.jpg

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6776/manmarking030cp4.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5839/manmarking031cu2.jpg

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4569/manmarking032rk6.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/364/manmarking033wo5.jpg

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9426/manmarking034kb2.jpg

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Tight Man Marking CB behaviour when opposition counter attack swiftly.

The striker #11 for Man Utd holds back on his run from just outside the centre circle but the CB #4 does not stick to him initially and drops back. But as Rooney on the break down the wing gets closer to the byline and CB#4 reaches his own box he slows down, checks his backtrack and moves to mark striker #11. In the screenshots where this happens I highlighted it showing the difference between FB #2 set to Loose Zonal circled in green and CB #4 set to Tight Man.

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8131/manmarking035rr1.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1972/manmarking036ky6.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9713/manmarking037mr9.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/7356/manmarking038hw7.jpg

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9516/manmarking039an5.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4605/manmarking040vk7.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9729/manmarking041kr8.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/9927/manmarking042hu6.jpg

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9696/manmarking043em3.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6656/manmarking045in2.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6586/manmarking046uw4.jpg

No negative potential consequence here but interesting to note. Similar quick break over the top in screenshots below whereby centre half stalling to pick up man could have lead to the opposition striker getting a clean run at goal if he had beaten the other centre back, similar to first group of screenshots where Newcastle players went to mark instead of supporting to cover team mate. Also highlighted is how Loose Zonal could also cause issues as it leads to a left back ‘collapsing’ onto the goal when if set to Tight Man Mark he might have picked up the midfielder who eventually slots home the deflected cross.

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/6903/manmarking047gb1.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2984/manmarking048hy8.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/231/manmarking049vu1.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/6135/manmarking050zi0.jpg

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/5692/manmarking051vk4.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2884/manmarking052zd6.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5059/manmarking053lv4.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1487/manmarking054dr6.jpg

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/1513/manmarking055gf1.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4219/manmarking056jo9.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3875/manmarking057oe7.jpg

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Multiple effects

The following screenshots show a few issues with both including

- mixing of zonal and man generating space for the opposition

- advanced midfielders drifting into Zonal voids and not being picked up

- tight man marking defender getting caught flat footed in reacting to rebound

- zonal defensive MC mentality too high (11) such that he does not drop to defensive line when CB gets sucked out

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/7617/manmarking058xc4.jpg

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3213/manmarking059lq4.jpg

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2796/manmarking060db1.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8286/manmarking061zl5.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7074/manmarking062mg5.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6844/manmarking063qh1.jpg

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1662/manmarking064dz3.jpg

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2077/manmarking065vm1.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6314/manmarking066il1.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2430/manmarking067dp7.jpg

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CB stops short as ball goes down flank and gets caught flatfooted

An attack down the right flank. The striker holds his run and after initially dropping back the Tight Man Mark CB stops to pick up the striker coming from deep. But in doing so he has to slow down, change direction once to move towards the striker and then a second time changing his facing direction almost 360 to head where the striker is going. At the same time the striker builds his speed and thus bypasses the CB with ease as he does not have to adjust as much when changing direction. In this scenario it didn’t amount to anything but being aware of the effect may help some with decisions to change player behaviour.

Also of note is the Zonal effect where you will see Arsenal RB #2 and Arsenal MC #9 both find space as their opposing players drop back relative to the ball as opposed to stalling to pick up the man. This behaviour does tend to make Zonal vulnerable to cut backs.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4089/manmarking069eh0.jpg

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8153/manmarking070po7.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3628/manmarking071uh0.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4316/manmarking072vd8.jpg

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2093/manmarking074jq8.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1631/manmarking075hd7.jpg

Similarly here Man Utd CB #4 the same effect. In this case though CB #5 does not stall his backtracking which possibly explainable by distance between him and nearest opposition opponent. Also 2 attacking players arrive late in the box to more or less the same point, largely unmarked due to creeping into Zonal voids. A contributing factor to this is Zonal players move relative to the ball and tend to pick up late on quick breaks. This regularly leads to bunching of defending players on the side the attack comes from as highlighted in the manmarking89 screenshot.

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4520/manmarking081fq1.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8089/manmarking082rr6.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9020/manmarking085dq7.jpg

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9680/manmarking086kr9.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3522/manmarking087hi5.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3922/manmarking088vf7.jpg

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2382/manmarking089xl7.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5949/manmarking090wp9.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6415/manmarking091ge8.jpg

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ST run draws out CB to create space for advancing midfielder

Here you’ll see an overlapping FB pick up the ball on the wing. The CB will track the striker’s less aggressive run which will create separation from the winger at the byline and create a gap for a more aggressive forward running midfielder to move into unmarked and finish.

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7506/manmarking092gx2.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/3092/manmarking093ls6.jpg

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/5834/manmarking094rd0.jpg

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/7112/manmarking096rx8.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7089/manmarking097qa1.jpg

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Winger skins full back from deep position and has open run

You’ll see how Man Marking CBs go towards strikers drifting inwards which opens up room for the wide man to attack in towards the goal. Also Sunderland CB #5 will move laterally as the winger heads towards goal in an attempt to pick up an opposition man, then change his focus to another opposition player. Not highlighted in the images but you can also see two Man Marking MCs 18 and 22 for Sunderland behaviour in not collapsing towards goal relative to the ball but stalling to pick up runners.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3803/manmarking098at0.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/9296/manmarking099de2.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/8360/manmarking100hi4.jpg

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/8869/manmarking102rb9.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4439/manmarking103ns7.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7820/manmarking104nc2.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/3102/manmarking105ys1.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/4387/manmarking106jp4.jpg

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/5836/manmarking107dk3.jpg

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Long ball in behind full back to winger, only one man to beat to get to goal

Quick diagonal ball in behind the defense to the right winger. You’ll see the striker move inwards and the Man Marking CB stall his trackback to go to him rather than dropping back to get goalside and help the full back to block the path to goal. Other players showing same behaviour are highlighted.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9265/manmarking108cs8.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4614/manmarking109ee5.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/540/manmarking110cr9.jpg

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/5392/manmarking111ti0.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8445/manmarking112zt7.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4605/manmarking113yl6.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2479/manmarking114jl4.jpg

Also note that an assumption of behaviour on previous screenshots from same match where the Sunderland RB dropped back which looked like Zonal behaviour. Yet here he gravitates out to the winger instead of dropping back. Was there a tactical change or does this reveal a ‘trigger point’ for go to man or continue dropping back? A quick comparison of behaviours.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7302/manmarktriggerpointah2.jpg

It still stands that a zonal full back will drop back thus from a tactics/players perspective the questions relate to whether or not you want your CBs to stall to track the striker with man marking tight and whether or not your players/tactics can compensate for this

- attack occurs quickly down left flank

- is your right back capable of dealing with the left winger?

- if you had him in an advanced position is he quick enough to make up the ground and block the wingers path to goal

- is your right back quick enough to get across and block the left winger’s path to goal after he beats the left back?

- how far advanced is your right back in above situation and the effect of his speed and mental attributes in covering the ground

- the effect of your team width on the amount of ground the right back will have to cover to block the right wingers path to goal

- will you have a deep lying defensive midfielder and if so will you set him to zonal and ensure his mentality/forward runs makes him capable of filling the space left by the CBs gravitating to the striker to block the wingers path to goal?

- if so does he have the necessary physical attributes to do this?

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Zonal CB behaviour = drop into box relative to ball

To illustrate the difference here are a few screenshots showing Zonal Loose CBs dropping into the box as the opposition winger gets to the byline rather than stalling their backtrack to cover the strikers who stalled their runs. The same applies to the other players who will collapse into the box and pick up zonally where relevant. The negative side is highlighted whereby CBs end up in redundant positions and the two late running strikers get picked up by an MC (who loses him) and a LB. Not a good thing when considering the aerial battle for crosses. Similarly the negative of narrow width plus zonal leading to free man at opposite post to point of cross. In this scenario the nature of the cross (more floated than whipped) allows one of the zonal players to get back to head clear despite being far behind the play.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3486/manmarking115ck6.jpg

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/4203/manmarking116ml5.jpg

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/1648/manmarking117ip0.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2884/manmarking118nr0.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9959/manmarking119pr2.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1052/manmarking120sb2.jpg

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/3191/manmarking121wa9.jpg

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So that illustrates some behavioural aspects of marking choices and mixing of systems. There is a variety of scenarios but in many the same player behaviour contributes to certain contextual effects. You could do a similar analysis of player behaviour when set to Zonal Marking and see the negatives of that particular choice (as well as looking at the positives of both systems). For example some negatives of Zonal Marking include

- players unmarked in the voids between zones

- trailing players for cut backs left unmarked as the Zonal players collapse onto the 6 yard when an opposition player gets to the byline

- related to the above the attacking team collecting cleared balls and initiating a secondary attack with ease due to Zonal defenders collapsing into the box

- the width effects creating separation of your full back and their winger which can increase the likelihood of him getting skinned when he rushes out to close down

- width effects when the dominant side leading to your wide players standing a few yards outside of theirs when the opposition is in possession (assuming the width differential between your team and the opposition is at the ‘sweet spot’ to cause this)

- width differentials and ‘coded’ defensive drift relative to the ball leading to wide players unmarked at the back post when a winger on the opposite side gets to the byline (most often a drifting striker or a wide player)

Basically the positives of one system are directly linked to the negatives of the other system, and vice versa. For example

- in the screenshots I noted how man marking left the CB isolated with respect to the MCd not dropping back as he covered the MC on the edge of the box. In that respect it is negative but it’s a positive in that the MCd can challenge for balls that are cleared from crosses

- in a zonal system the MCd would have dropped back to help and possibly closed the strikers run towards goal which is a positive. But the negative of that is he is not on the edge of the box to challenge for cleared crosses.

Like most choices in this game you can’t have your cake and eat it. You need to make a choice that reflects the players at your disposal, the quality of the opposition and the tactical set up of the opposition. From which point of attack are you more vulnerable? Can your CB handle getting isolated on a through ball to the striker he is opposite to? How effective are your MCs in tracking their man? How good in the air are the opposition strikers? Are the opposition midfielders creative enough to spot the through ball and technically capable of pulling it off? Can your full backs handle the opposition wingers consistently?

I’m not saying man = bad, zonal = good or vice versa. I’m just illustrating player behaviour so that if someone sees their players behave as in the screenshots they will know the cause and be able to make a decision as to how to react if they choose to do so. All based on observation so as I said at the beginning any disagreement with those observations is welcomed .

[RT--]

Great post! I dread to think how long it takes you to put something like that together...

I typically tend to have my two centre-backs on loose man-marking and my full-backs on tight zonal marking. It seems to work okay, but I'll be analysing it in much more detail now!

The other possibility is marking and closing-down wingers and forwards through Opposition Instructions, though I've always found problems with that.

I would imagine that the defenders in those screenshots have fairly low creative freedom? I wonder what would happen if their creative freedom was high? Would your tight man-marking centre backs be more inclined to leave their forward and come across to close down the winger? Or is that just down to closing down settings?

There are so many combinations of settings, with width, defensive line, mentality and the type of marking (not to mention the Opposition Instructions), and you've then got to factor in the attributes of your players and the opposition. It's enough to give you a headache, but those screenshots have certainly given me something to look at the next time I play a match!

[RT--]

On the flip-side, of course, it would be a *very* useful skill to be able to spot exactly what settings the opposition's defence were using, and develop ways to exploit that with your attacking settings.

[RT--]

It'd be a very interesting experiment to repeat something like your Arsenal-Man Utd game above, again with both centre-backs on tight man-marking, but this time with one of them having an attacking mentality and the other a defensive mentality. And then again, with defensive mentality settings, but one with high creative freedom and the other with low. I'd like to see how their behaviour would differ in the sort of situations you've looked at.

[isuckatfm]

Great post! I dread to think how long it takes you to put something like that together...

It’s something I do in the course of trying to figure out how things work so figured why not post it. Hopefully it will help a few people who are watching the 2D/3D and wondering why the hell their players are doing the things they do. A lot of people neither have the time nor the inclination to ‘experiment’ so maybe this will give them a bit of insight. I was curious to see if man marking/zonal showed any differences in this version as I could never tell the difference on prior ones and from what I’ve seen there is a noticeable difference.

I typically tend to have my two centre-backs on loose man-marking and my full-backs on tight zonal marking. It seems to work okay, but I'll be analysing it in much more detail now!

I must have deleted something by mistake when posting as I meant to state that. It’s all about results and if the system is working for you why change. As I said the intent was to show what players do in certain situations so that people reading it who hadn’t already, can recognise why their player didn’t close down the man coming in from the wing or why their centre back wasn’t in the box when the cross came in or why an opposition player might have found himself all alone in the box to slot home.

I would imagine that the defenders in those screenshots have fairly low creative freedom? I wonder what would happen if their creative freedom was high? Would your tight man-marking centre backs be more inclined to leave their forward and come across to close down the winger? Or is that just down to closing down settings?

Creative Freedom is medium (10) for the all the Newcastle matches. CBs have fairly high closing down (12) in the Blackburn example but low closing down in the Liverpool example. In the Man Utd match it was low CF (3) and low CD (4). The reason I didn’t comment on closing down is because I’m still not that confident about how it works but it seemed like high or low made no difference in terms of CBs tracking the striker as opposed to closing the flank. It seemed like once the winger was in behind it changed their decision plus the movement of striker would drag the CB such that the distance between him and the wing player would be too far to trigger the ‘close down ballcarrier’ decision. Open to correction though

The West Brom and Sunderland defender examples are AI managed but I’m pretty certain about their settings based on the player behaviour mirroring the players I ‘tested’ with.

It'd be a very interesting experiment to repeat something like your Arsenal-Man Utd game above, again with both centre-backs on tight man-marking, but this time with one of them having an attacking mentality and the other a defensive mentality. And then again, with similar mentality settings, but one with high creative freedom and the other with low. I'd like to see how their behaviour would differ in the sort of situations you've looked at.

Mentality with CBs is a strange one to be honest. In terms of general positioning within the time frame to get to a spot the concept of offside seems to make the higher mentality CB the designated point (in other words if your team moves the ball up the pitch and your CBs have the time to get to the point, you will see both centre backs aligned regardless of differences in mentality). But at the same time it appears to me that mentality very much affects the player’s aggression when ‘getting out’ when a ball is cleared. So a Mentality 1 defender will hold for longer but a Mentality 20 defender will push up more aggressively. That’s generally what I’ve observed but it hasn’t been a 100% consistent behaviour.

The difficulty with testing though is the variety in the match engine as you rarely get two exactly like for like scenarios in terms of who positions themselves where and how the play evolves. I still think that what I posted holds true but part of the motivation for posting was to see if anyone disagreed. We have so many people on here playing the game and using a variety of settings it would be nice to make use of that. So if someone posts after reading to say ‘my players don’t do that’ I’m all for it It would certainly help in terms of figuring out the sliders and separating out player attribute effects.

[Richard76]

I typically tend to have my two centre-backs on loose man-marking and my full-backs on tight zonal marking. It seems to work okay, but I'll be analysing it in much more detail now!

That's an interesting one.

I do the exact opposite.

I have my CB's on zonal marking. I find if they're on man marking they get pulled all over the place as the AI strikers swap around all the time.

I have my full backs on man marking as they will always be playing against the same player as wingers don't tend to swap positions all the time.

[isuckatfm]

That's an interesting one.

I do the exact opposite.

I have my CB's on zonal marking. I find if they're on man marking they get pulled all over the place as the AI strikers swap around all the time.

I have my full backs on man marking as they will always be playing against the same player as wingers don't tend to swap positions all the time.

Do you find your team giving up chances with balls into the gap between the CBs and FBs when the full back gets drawn out wide to mark the winger? What team are you playing as? Just curious as to how it might affect differing quality of players.

[Richard76]

Do you find your team giving up chances with balls into the gap between the CBs and FBs when the full back gets drawn out wide to mark the winger? What team are you playing as? Just curious as to how it might affect differing quality of players.

At the moment I'm still finding my feet tactically on 09. Finding it SO different to 08 that I feel like I have to learn everything all over again.

I'm playing as Leicester.

No, not really seeing my full backs too out of position at the moment.

Although I am using a team marking system at the moment while I decide how I will set up come the 14th.

[isuckatfm]

At the moment I'm still finding my feet tactically on 09. Finding it SO different to 08 that I feel like I have to learn everything all over again.

I'm playing as Leicester.

No, not really seeing my full backs too out of position at the moment.

Although I am using a team marking system at the moment while I decide how I will set up come the 14th.

Thanks I saw it happen consistently enough with Tight Man Marking for the FBs but with the amount of variables involved it may just be me coming to the wrong conclusion. Any chance of some pkms? (Go to a fixture, click the save button in the left corner to create the pkm file in My Documents/Sports Interactive/Football Manager 2009 Demo and then put it on a hosting site for download). No worries if you can't be arsed

[Richard76]

Thanks I saw it happen consistently enough with Tight Man Marking for the FBs but with the amount of variables involved it may just be me coming to the wrong conclusion. Any chance of some pkms? (Go to a fixture, click the save button in the left corner to create the pkm file in My Documents/Sports Interactive/Football Manager 2009 Demo and then put it on a hosting site for download). No worries if you can't be arsed

pkm???

10101010

[isuckatfm]

pkm???

10101010

It's a file that saves the match. See on the main menu it has an option to the right 'View Match'. You can use that to watch any match saved via

Go to a fixture, click the save button in the left corner to create the pkm file in My Documents/Sports Interactive/Football Manager 2009 Demo/matches.

[RT--]

Here's a PKM of my last match: centre-backs on man/loose, full-backs on zonal/tight.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=Y2orSkhRaFJ6NEpFQlE9PQ

I think it highlights the problem of zonal/tight marking for full-backs - both of the goals I conceded (I'm Crewe) were due to problems with picking up players at the back post.

I notice that my full-backs quite often get drawn inside and end up 'tight marking' one of the forwards while leaving a winger spare.

[footynut]

Here's a PKM of my last match: centre-backs on man/loose, full-backs on zonal/tight.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_status&batch_id=Y2orSkhRaFJ6NEpFQlE9PQ

I think it highlights the problem of zonal/tight marking for full-backs - both of the goals I conceded (I'm Crewe) were due to problems with picking up players at the back post.

I notice that my full-backs quite often get drawn inside and end up 'tight marking' one of the forwards while leaving a winger spare.

Maybe the match engine works differently to real football but having your 2 full backs man mark and your 2 centre backs mark zonally is asking for trouble in my opinion.

[Tottiseiya]

Nice thread.

Actually, I seldom use man marking.

[RT--]

Maybe the match engine works differently to real football but having your 2 full backs man mark and your 2 centre backs mark zonally is asking for trouble in my opinion.

I have my centre-backs man mark and full-backs marking zonally, so I'm not sure what you mean there.

[Richard76]

It's a file that saves the match. See on the main menu it has an option to the right 'View Match'. You can use that to watch any match saved via

Go to a fixture, click the save button in the left corner to create the pkm file in My Documents/Sports Interactive/Football Manager 2009 Demo/matches.

Ok mate.

At work at the moment but can upload a couple later.

[footynut]

I have my centre-backs man mark and full-backs marking zonally, so I'm not sure what you mean there.

Ok, it's still the same. If your full backs are marking zonally, who are they going to hand the player over to?

Imagine your full back is marking a winger who moves in field. Your full back will let him go when the player leaves his zone but who will pick him up then as the centre back is man marking.

If you're going to have a back four man mark, you need a spare man for example a sweeper.

[isuckatfm]

Here's a PKM of my last match: centre-backs on man/loose, full-backs on zonal/tight.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=Y2orSkhRaFJ6NEpFQlE9PQ

I think it highlights the problem of zonal/tight marking for full-backs - both of the goals I conceded (I'm Crewe) were due to problems with picking up players at the back post.

I notice that my full-backs quite often get drawn inside and end up 'tight marking' one of the forwards while leaving a winger spare.

Thanks for the pkm.

To be honest there is core behaviour designed into the engine that you have to try to get around as best possible, namely:-

1. Defensive width is coded to be naturally narrower than attacking width. So there will always be a band of settings where there is separation across the pitch

2. The defending team will drift as a unit relative to the ball and this in turn will affect who they pick up

Both of these contribute to the free man at the back post problem. If someone has found a solution to this I'm all ears. I think a key element is the winger dropping back to help out defensively. See here the #14 ML has come back to help (set to Zonal Loose IIRC)

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/6707/manmarking013sk7.jpg

For the first goal in your pkm I think more player mistake than anything as your RB seemed to misjudge the flight of the ball.

For their second goal can I ask what where the following settings (you had switched back to your 4231):-

FBs mentalities, marking, forward runs

CBs mentalities and settings

Play Offside ticked or unticked

EDIT: The reason I ask is you will see that when McKenna heads the ball on your two CBs barely move but your FBs push ahead aggressively. Then you see your LB drift away from goal as if to go mark their #11 then as your #4 comes back goalside of said player, your LB then drops back to his position but decides to pick up their #9 and/or misjudges the flight of the ball leaving space for their goalscorer Hurst. With your 4411 the ML might well have been in position to make up for your full backs decisions.

[RT--]

Ok, it's still the same. If your full backs are marking zonally, who are they going to hand the player over to?

Imagine your full back is marking a winger who moves in field. Your full back will let him go when the player leaves his zone but who will pick him up then as the centre back is man marking.

If you're going to have a back four man mark, you need a spare man for example a sweeper.

Well yeah, that's one disadvantage of zonal marking for full-backs.

But if you put them on man-marking, that creates other problems, as the OP explains. When the opposition play wide, your full-backs get dragged out by the wingers and leave big gaps between them and the centre-backs. If the opposition has a good AMC or MCa, then they can exploit this gap.

There's no right or wrong answer. You just have to find the right setting for your team's players, with the opposition's tactics in mind.

[RT--]

T

For their second goal can I ask what where the following settings (you had switched back to your 4231):-

FBs mentalities, marking, forward runs

CBs mentalities and settings

Play Offside ticked or unticked

EDIT: The reason I ask is you will see that when McKenna heads the ball on your two CBs barely move but your FBs push ahead aggressively. Then you see your LB drift away from goal as if to go mark their #11 then as your #4 comes across to mark him, your LB then drops back to his position but decides to pick up their #9 leaving space for their goalscorer Hurst.

The FB mentalities were around about 10, but they had forward runs on often - the CB mentalities about 8, forward runs rarely. Offisde is unticked.

So you've probably anticipated the problem - the left-back pushes on too quickly and then tries to pick up the nearest man instead of the spare winger.

[footynut]

Well yeah, that's one disadvantage of zonal marking for full-backs.

But if you put them on man-marking, that creates other problems, as the OP explains. When the opposition play wide, your full-backs get dragged out by the wingers and leave big gaps between them and the centre-backs. If the opposition has a good AMC or MCa, then they can exploit this gap.

There's no right or wrong answer. You just have to find the right setting for your team's players, with the opposition's tactics in mind.

This is why I now always adopt zonal marking if playing with a back four.

I think man marking is best used when playing with a back 5 and having a spare man or when having a midfield player man mark a dangerous playmaker.

[isuckatfm]

The FB mentalities were around about 10, but they had forward runs on often - the CB mentalities about 8, forward runs rarely. Offisde is unticked.

So you've probably anticipated the problem - the left-back pushes on too quickly and then tries to pick up the nearest man instead of the spare winger.

Do you see this consistently or would it be something you'd put down to just poor decision making? Just saw you have them set to zonal which kind of blows a hole in my opening post Was it tight Zonal? I would have expected with those mentality settings and Zonal marking he would have dropped back into position.

Out of curiosity what did it look like in the 3D as in 2D it is one of those that the position of your defender/GK blobs compared to how the ball moves makes me wonder how in the hell he got the shot through.

[RT--]

Do you see this consistently or would it be something you'd put down to just poor decision making? Just saw you have them set to zonal which kind of blows a hole in my opening post Was it tight Zonal? I would have expected with those mentality settings and Zonal marking he would have dropped back into position.

Out of curiosity what did it look like in the 3D as in 2D it is one of those that the position of your defender/GK blobs compared to how the ball moves makes me wonder how in the hell he got the shot through.

It's tight zonal marking, so that probably makes a big difference - the left-back acts like he's looking to mark someone (anyone!) tightly, if they're near enough.

I'll have a look at the 3D representation of it in a bit.

[RT--]

Just watched it on 3D, and there's *just* enough of a gap between the goalkeeper and defender for him to squeeze the shot through. Hats off to the guy, I suppose!

[isuckatfm]

It's tight zonal marking, so that probably makes a big difference - the left-back acts like he's looking to mark someone (anyone!) tightly, if they're near enough.

I'll have a look at the 3D representation of it in a bit.

Maybe not a Man Marking effect in the opening post as I thought but a Tight > Yes effect? Possibly back to the drawing board .

[RT--]

Maybe not a Man Marking effect in the opening post as I thought but a Tight > Yes effect? Possibly back to the drawing board .

I still think your opening post makes sense.

The 'checking back and marking someone, instead of drifting' effect may well be down to tight marking, the man/zonal setting just dictates exactly who the defender checks back to mark. With zonal/tight players, I'd imagine they'll only check back if there's someone fairly near to them (in their 'zone').

I sometimes have a midfielder set to man mark/tight, and I notice that he'll follow his man around regardless of whether he's sometimes better placed to close down/tackle the player on the ball. If he's on man mark/loose, he'll follow his player a bit, but will leave him to close down the opposition player if he's near enough (closing down settings obviously have an effect here, as well).

[isuckatfm]

I still think your opening post makes sense.

The 'checking back and marking someone, instead of drifting' effect may well be down to tight marking, the man/zonal setting just dictates exactly who the defender checks back to mark. With zonal/tight players, I'd imagine they'll only check back if there's someone fairly near to them (in their 'zone').

I sometimes have a midfielder set to man mark/tight, and I notice that he'll follow his man around regardless of whether he's sometimes better placed to close down/tackle the player on the ball. If he's on man mark/loose, he'll follow his player a bit, but will leave him to close down the opposition player if he's near enough (closing down settings obviously have an effect here, as well).

That sounds about right If you notice this, save the pkm, upload here and I'll do some screen grabs and add them to the thread. The more examples of varying settings/screenshots of player choices the more useful the thread might be

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by RT--

I typically tend to have my two centre-backs on loose man-marking and my full-backs on tight zonal marking. It seems to work okay, but I'll be analysing it in much more detail now!

Thats how I play too.

[Cleon]

Btw excellent thread yet again

[ObaMartins09]

Terrific thread isuckatfm.

When the game is released, I will experiment with different marking settings for sure. I think threads like this is what the T&T forum needs, something that generates a bit of discussion.

Good work.

[isuckatfm]

Originally Posted by RT--

I typically tend to have my two centre-backs on loose man-marking and my full-backs on tight zonal marking. It seems to work okay, but I'll be analysing it in much more detail now!

Thats how I play too.

How are you finding their closing down? Do they come across to cover the goal when the winger gets in behind or stick to their man? Or have you figured out the combination to get the 'best of both worlds' as it were?

Defensive behaviour is much improved from 08 but I'm still trying to find the right balance, if that's even possible.

[Cleon]

How are you finding their closing down? Do they come across to cover the goal when the winger gets in behind or stick to their man? Or have you figured out the combination to get the 'best of both worlds' as it were?

Defensive behaviour is much improved from 08 but I'm still trying to find the right balance, if that's even possible.

I can get both to work, i'll post how I do it later on when I get time fella

[isuckatfm]

Terrific thread isuckatfm.

When the game is released, I will experiment with different marking settings for sure. I think threads like this is what the T&T forum needs, something that generates a bit of discussion.

Good work.

Thanks

I can get both to work, i'll post how I do it later on when I get time fella

Look forward to reading it Any chance you'd upload a pkm or two aswell?

[Lisandro Lopez]

Ace thread mate , enjoyed the read.

[Mitja]

tremendous post as allways!

o'm yet to read the whole thread, here are just a couple of thoughts about real life tight (man) marking.

- mostly it's given to one or two most dangerous opposition players, not the same as specific man marking - players won't follow him all over the pitch. it's about defending team concentrating to restrict tight-marked player to get the ball.

- imo it's allmost impossible to see real life team to defend in such way with all, or majority of players. maybe it could work with totally defensive tactics; extremly deep, with no closing down and 10 men behind the ball. the idea is to keep close to attacking player but to still defend enough compactly.

- in any other scenario; with higher d-line and more closing it would be extremly hard to work. with 10 men defending, any defence needs to keep defensive shape, more or less, depending on closing down frequency. it's impossible to be enough compact if you want all your players to keep it tight to their opponents. even in sport which is played with far less players like basketball, the compactness of defence is still the base - to help each other.

[Mitja]

The tactical question to ask is did Arsenal MC #9 lose Scholes because he was set to Zonal Mark? Would he have picked him up if set to Tight Man Mark? Or was it simply a player mistake influenced by attributes? Does this mean you should match up marking choices to prevent space for the opposition?-

MC shouldn't let him lose no metter what marking system he's set to. imo, it's down to player decision - attributes.

[Richard76]

Hi mate,

Got 2 games for you to have a look at.

Both using zonal marking and

http://rs528l3.rapidshare.com/cgi-bin/upload.cgi?rsuploadid=144316984783728515

http://rs37l3.rapidshare.com/cgi-bin/upload.cgi?rsuploadid=144316984758350587

CB closing down set to 4 & FB set to 6.

Not doing very well at the moment so going to try man marking now.

Any more questions you have please let me know.

[Bluebeard]

Wow, great thread.

I have been using tight marking for everyone except the two strikers and the AMC, and man for DCs, zonal otherwise, and barely conceded any goals - only 4 in 20 (I'm playing as Real Madrid, but still, this is much better than I managed in FM08). Seems to work OK but I will try DCs on loose to see what happens. My main threat tends to be 'spare' AMC or MCa players running through; I am barely ever threatened down the flanks.

Perhaps this is because I have a tight marking DMC? He's on closing down 12, mentality 9, CF 5 in my more defensive tactic.

God this game is interesting!!

[isuckatfm]

o'm yet to read the whole thread, here are just a couple of thoughts about real life tight (man) marking.

- mostly it's given to one or two most dangerous opposition players, not the same as specific man marking - players won't follow him all over the pitch. it's about defending team concentrating to restrict tight-marked player to get the ball.

- imo it's allmost impossible to see real life team to defend in such way with all, or majority of players. maybe it could work with totally defensive tactics; extremly deep, with no closing down and 10 men behind the ball. the idea is to keep close to attacking player but to still defend enough compactly.

- in any other scenario; with higher d-line and more closing it would be extremly hard to work. with 10 men defending, any defence needs to keep defensive shape, more or less, depending on closing down frequency. it's impossible to be enough compact if you want all your players to keep it tight to their opponents. even in sport which is played with far less players like basketball, the compactness of defence is still the base - to help each other.

I would agree with you Mitja and that seems to be the way it works. But as much as this game is a football simulation my preference was to figure out how it works in game. So I was looking for patterns of behaviour that indicated players reacting as the code told them to in a deterministic manner. From what I posted and what I’ve seen (open to disagreement as always) there are moments/distances where the man marking gets triggered and instead of positioning relative to the ball as they would with zonal they go to man, as seen with the difference between zonal CBs dropping back when attacked down the flanks versus tight man marking CBs who hang back with the striker (still not certain about the Tight vs Loose effect but I’m going to test that out at some point).

The tactical question to ask is did Arsenal MC #9 lose Scholes because he was set to Zonal Mark? Would he have picked him up if set to Tight Man Mark? Or was it simply a player mistake influenced by attributes? Does this mean you should match up marking choices to prevent space for the opposition?-

MC shouldn't let him lose no metter what marking system he's set to. imo, it's down to player decision - attributes.

That was one I was hoping for more feedback from other FMers. From what I’ve seen the zonal player seems to be more likely to lose the player within the context of the game. It might even be Closing Down contributing to the player in question going to close the ballcarrier rather than tracking his man. Or maybe the relative positioning has an effect and once the opposition player gets in behind them they lose them. Has this been your experience of it?

For example in the scenario that quote is from (The Dropping Off Striker Effect, Example 1, manmarking23 to 28) you can see the Man Utd MC gets goalside of the Arsenal MC at which point he loses him. But in another scenario (Tight Man Marking CB behaviour when opposition counter attack swiftly, manmarking 35 to 46) when the midfielder does not get goalside the Arsenal #8 MC tracks the Man Utd MC #9 very closely. In both instances the marking settings are exactly the same, Zonal Loose.

As you say though I would guess attributes play a strong role in this, maybe concentration, marking and positioning?

Hi mate,

Got 2 games for you to have a look at.

Both using zonal marking and

http://rs528l3.rapidshare.com/cgi-bin/upload.cgi?rsuploadid=144316984783728515

http://rs37l3.rapidshare.com/cgi-bin/upload.cgi?rsuploadid=144316984758350587

CB closing down set to 4 & FB set to 6.

Not doing very well at the moment so going to try man marking now.

Any more questions you have please let me know.

You copied the wrong links for your uploads

Wow, great thread.

I have been using tight marking for everyone except the two strikers and the AMC, and man for DCs, zonal otherwise, and barely conceded any goals - only 4 in 20 (I'm playing as Real Madrid, but still, this is much better than I managed in FM08). Seems to work OK but I will try DCs on loose to see what happens. My main threat tends to be 'spare' AMC or MCa players running through; I am barely ever threatened down the flanks.

Perhaps this is because I have a tight marking DMC? He's on closing down 12, mentality 9, CF 5 in my more defensive tactic.

God this game is interesting!!

As I said before if what you have is working that well then keep on truckin’ But as you say playing as Real Madrid you’ll probably be heavy favourites for a lot of matches. Thus the AI won’t regularly commit many men forward and possibly just shut up shop when they go 2 goals down at the Bernabeu. So possibly your more defensive midfielder won’t be stalling his backtrack as there is no one advanced in his area and thus he’ll be in position to cover the gaps created by the CBs stalling their backtracks to cover the striker. But that’s just hypothesis.

Relative pace will have a major influence. I showed an example with Newcastle’s Jonas coming inside against Sunderland, Long ball in behind full back to winger, only one man to beat to get to goal, manmarking 108 to 114. The full back can’t get back to cover. Evra covers the ground despite the winger getting in behind in CB stops short as ball goes down flank and gets caught flatfooted, manmarking69 to 75. So the relative distances will have an impact as will the ability to get back

Here’s a comparison (not perfectly identical but you see the difference)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8047/pacecomparisonjm3.jpg

Can't really argue with 4 in 20 though

[footynut]

tremendous post as allways!

o'm yet to read the whole thread, here are just a couple of thoughts about real life tight (man) marking.

- mostly it's given to one or two most dangerous opposition players, not the same as specific man marking - players won't follow him all over the pitch. it's about defending team concentrating to restrict tight-marked player to get the ball.

I'm a bit confused, are you saying that the man marking in the game works differently to how it does in real life?

[Mitja]

That was one I was hoping for more feedback from other FMers. From what I’ve seen the zonal player seems to be more likely to lose the player within the context of the game. It might even be Closing Down contributing to the player in question going to close the ballcarrier rather than tracking his man. Or maybe the relative positioning has an effect and once the opposition player gets in behind them they lose them. Has this been your experience of it?

i think players set on zonal will track back and mark their players, much better in 09, then it was the case before. for example, MCs are following opposition MCs into the box...

letting a player lose and covering is fundametial difference between zonal and man marking. but leting a player lose without being covered by a team-mate, isn't acceptable in any marking system. defender should follow attacker if there is nobody to cover for him. losing and covering should allways create errors - gaps, for opposition to exploit. zonal defending is harder than man-to-man, in decision making, and that's one of it's downsides. but in terms of saving stamina and it's effectivness rate, zonal systems should outperform men-marking.

PS

i'm still a little confused about difference in man (loose)- and zonal-marking systems in FM. i'm experimenting and observing now to figure it out.

[Mitja]

I'm a bit confused, are you saying that the man marking in the game works differently to how it does in real life?

i can't answer that question.

i was talking about tight men marking. imo it's hard to see a team (all players) play that way in real life.

[Mitja]

i struggle to notice any difference between man-marking (loose) and zonal system.

played 2 matches with right side of the team on man marking and left side on zonal. of course i watched both matches on full.

i'd really like someone alse to try this aswell, maybe is smth wrong with my perception.

[footynut]

i struggle to notice any difference between man-marking (loose) and zonal system.

played 2 matches with right side of the team on man marking and left side on zonal. of course i watched both matches on full.

i'd really like someone alse to try this aswell, maybe is smth wrong with my perception.

Man marking makes your player responsible for an opponent at all times where as zonal marking makes your player responsible for an area of the pitch.

Now something I often see recommended on these forums is a back four with the two centre backs man marking and the two full backs zonal marking. This to me is suicidal, as it would be in real football. Who do your full backs hand a player they are marking over to when the opponent leaves his zone as the centre backs will be getting pulled out of position by the player they are man marking?

Name me any club that uses a back four that uses a man marking system? It would be to easy to pull apart. Maybe the game behaves differently but after checking to see what it says in the manual my understanding is that it works in the same way.

[Mitja]

can you actually see any difference with zonal/man-marking loose in match engine, becouse i don't.

somebody prove me wrong, please.

[isuckatfm]

can you actually see any difference with zonal/man-marking loose in match engine, becouse i don't.

somebody prove me wrong, please.

Do you want to upload the pkm(s) so I'm looking at the same match(es) as you?

[Mitja]

i will upload it. just a sec.

[Mitja]

http://rapidshare.com/files/162884233/Tottenham_v_Anderlecht.pkm.html

[Mitja]

i did some changes to the basic tactics - right side on man marking loose, left on zonal, as time goes on. you'll notice when i assigned my right part to tight man marking, at least i did. i also tweaked both MC's marknig during match more than others.

i would suggest you to do the same test as i did, with your own settings.

can you put some screanies to prove me wrong, please.

[isuckatfm]

i did some changes to the basic tactics - right side on man marking loose, left on zonal, as time goes on. you'll notice when i assigned my right part to tight man marking, at least i did. i also tweaked both MC's marknig during match more than others.

i would suggest you to do the same test as i did, with your own settings.

can you put some screanies to prove me wrong, please.

Where they set up from the beginning with that? Right side Man Loose and left side Zonal Loose?