Dominating Games but cant score

[wardog]

Hi guys, 

Usually don't ask for tactical help as historically been ok in this area, I know how I want my teams to play and have no real issues in getting them to play how I want them to. And right now my team is doing exactly that, the problem is pretty much all my goals come from set pieces despite having one of the strongest teams in the league and creating several clear cut chances. Would love some help to see if its the tactics thats the issue. 

I've added some screenshots of various instructions to see if it helps. 

This screen has general team instructions. Have some playing instructions on top below. 

The wing backs have the same instructions on both sides, and they are fairly effective creating chances, Ive asked them not to be part of the press as neither side is the quickest and against quick wingers want them taking up positions to make smarter challenges and block crosses, this again seems to be fairly effective most of the team very few crosses come in, problem is when they do usually results in a goal. 

The advanced forward I have take more risks on as this worked with the same issue in a Bayern save with a different formation, flicking that on seemed to increase the goals Lewandowski would score, hasnt made any difference in this hibs save however. While the AM is asked to shoot less as found they were often shooting from 25 yards when an easy pass was on this has reduced this and again helping in creating the chances. 

The problem seems to be finishing these chances, and I cant understand why, even see many situations were were two on one with the keeper and player who has the ball shoots straight and the keeper or blasts it into the post - never scored from these guarenteed goalscoring chances once. 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, wardog said:

I know how I want my teams to play

How is that exactly? How did you see this tactic playing out in  your head? Who's doing the scoring? Is there someone else who would be able to pitch in? Who's going to supply them and how? How are you creating space for the scorers?

Next step, who's getting the chances? What sort of chances? Does he have the attributes to pull it off? It looks like you're expecting an awful lot from your striker here. What's his attributes like?

1 minute ago, wardog said:

While the AM is asked to shoot less as found they were often shooting from 25 yards when an easy pass was on

Does his instructions allow that pass? Does his attributes cause him to "see" it? You're very narrow and playing through the middle... are you not compressing things centrally far too much?

[wardog]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

How is that exactly? How did you see this tactic playing out in  your head? Who's doing the scoring? Is there someone else who would be able to pitch in? Who's going to supply them and how? How are you creating space for the scorers?

Next step, who's getting the chances? What sort of chances? Does he have the attributes to pull it off? It looks like you're expecting an awful lot from your striker here. What's his attributes like?

Does his instructions allow that pass? Does his attributes cause him to "see" it? You're very narrow and playing through the middle... are you not compressing things centrally far too much?

Main striker has 15 finishing and 11 composure during my sacking in livi save he was one of the best strikers in league, my back ups have 13 and 12 and 14 and 14. off the ball stats similar to these on all of them aswell. Id expect my midfielders (CAMS and the Mezzala) to arrive in box create some space and all are more than capable stat wise of finishing chances at this level - between 10 and 15 finishing, composure and off the ball, again fairly good for this level. 

My main idea of the formation was winning the ball high up and keeping it there, keeping a team boxed in passing around waiting for mistakes, given the amount of clear cut chances we create it does seem to do that to an extent just don't score enough of them. Honestly I've historically used 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 formations so this is a bit of a new formation I wanted to try So that i could use some of the players I have signed and targetted to sign. 

 

Ill make some adjustments to the width as that could be a good idea, is there any recommendations you could offer in this area? 

[HUNT3R]

You mention Finishing and Composure, but there's more to finishing than those 2 things. That's exactly why I asked about the type of chances they're getting. If whoever is supposed to score has to turn and shoot or run at pace while shooting, Balance is a big factor. Or are they surrounded by defenders, hence my question about having the space (and so also, the time) to score? My question about the type of chances... are they maybe at tight angles? Is your striker Inconsistent?

 

My questions were supposed to make you think about what you've created and the chances you're getting.

[wardog]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You mention Finishing and Composure, but there's more to finishing than those 2 things. That's exactly why I asked about the type of chances they're getting. If whoever is supposed to score has to turn and shoot or run at pace while shooting, Balance is a big factor. Or are they surrounded by defenders, hence my question about having the space (and so also, the time) to score? My question about the type of chances... are they maybe at tight angles? Is your striker Inconsistent?

 

My questions were supposed to make you think about what you've created and the chances you're getting.

Fair point. Heres 2 big examples in game im currently playing against celtic. This is slightly different tactic as playing it slightly more counter minded lower level of defence and engagment but some of the chances youll see us missing

 

 

Also added in main strikers stats here. There is other chances but these are the main two in this instance. 

[Deego619]

The key rule of breaking teams down is to have runners from deep. You had an advanced striker pinning back the defence, and what else?

You sound like you want your Mez to get into the box, then why not put an attack duty on him and bring your AP back to support? There could be some really nice interchanges with the AP pulling the defence out and the Mez attacking that space inbetween full back and center back which may open up some vital room for the AF even. Your setup looks good especially for pressing (although BWM is an aggressive role in an already aggressive system, I would go CM/D but that's my own preference), so I think you need to focus on the little things rather than an overall haul of the system.

[wardog]

1 minute ago, JDeeguain said:

The key rule of breaking teams down is to have runners from deep. You had an advanced striker pinning back the defence, and what else?

You sound like you want your Mez to get into the box, then why not put an attack duty on him and bring your AP back to support? There could be some really nice interchanges with the AP pulling the defence out and the Mez attacking that space inbetween full back and center back which may open up some vital room for the AF even. Your setup looks good especially for pressing, so I think you need to focus on the little things rather than an overall haul of the system.

Great shout actually I'll make that switch right now. 

[wardog]

Thanks guys played two games since going abit wider and told them to stop playing through the middle. Seeing some big improvements, Mezzela slightly wider than I'd like but this is actually working better than my initial plan and switched Calierro to Mezzela on attack too which suits my players better and giving us a more balanced midfield. Creating alot of chances still but seem to be abit more clinical with them thats only two games since changing against Rangers and Hearts though so will keep working on it and hopefully see progress against smaller teams. 4 big points picked up though

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

You mention Finishing and Composure, but there's more to finishing than those 2 things. That's exactly why I asked about the type of chances they're getting. If whoever is supposed to score has to turn and shoot or run at pace while shooting, Balance is a big factor. Or are they surrounded by defenders, hence my question about having the space (and so also, the time) to score? My question about the type of chances... are they maybe at tight angles? Is your striker Inconsistent?

The (finishing related) attributes tend to be some of the most overrated things on FM (next to team talks). Then again, this completely fits football, where the general viewing audience is convinced that some players are just utterly useless and Ronaldo would score everything..... In general, worse chances tend to be pretty difficult no matter much who has them. Better chances tend to be more oftenly converted, ditto -- however, even the best may be roughly the equivalent of a coin toss, which is also why teams such as Man City both consistently create as well as miss some of the most "big chances". It's the overwhelming amount of such chances doing the trick here. I'd forget about attributes entirelly and start with the obvioius. Which is assessing how bad things really are.

Starting points.
1) Shot conversion stats in the team reports screen. Can be compared to AI and rivals.
2) Shot conversion stats in the forward's profile ditto.
3) "Bad luck" is meant to be a part of the game. I'd argue there is histirocally significantly less so even if you aren't brilliant at the game than in football (and hey, goals from set pieces still count too), but it's meant to be a part of it. To put that in simple terms, if you "dominated" every single match of the season by FM's simple stats, you may realistically expect to not win roughly ~30% of them.

 

[wardog]

2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

The (finishing related) attributes tend to be some of the most overrated things on FM (next to team talks). Then again, this completely fits football, where the general viewing audience is convinced that some players are just utterly useless and Ronaldo would score everything..... I'd forget about them entirelly and start with the obvioius. Which is assessin how bad things really are.

Starting points.
1) Shot conversion stats in the team reports screen. Can be compared to AI and rivals.
2) Shot conversion stats in the forward's profile ditto.
3) "Bad luck" is meant to be a part of the game. I'd argue there is histirocally significantly less so even if you aren't brilliant at the game than in football (and hey, goals from set pieces still count too), but it's meant to be a part of it. To put that in simple terms, if you "dominated" every single match of the season by FM's simple stats, you may realistically expect to not win roughly ~30% of them.

 

So to reply to this heres the details. I actually think this highlights the serious issue of my problem. Only 2 teams have had more shots than us but we have by far the lowest conversion rate compared to AI. 

 

this is also first competitive game of season to current. Again highlighting at least domestically we're not winning even close to 30% of games 

[Pedroig]

By no means an expert, but seems like initial problem was a lack of space in the final third.  Doesn't really matter how good your attributes are if there are 7-8 in the box because you put them there.  Which is why spreading them out on the attack will probably keep on working, though double Mezzela might leave you short on defense especially when you lose the ball.  You'll be playing 3v5 until the WB's and Mezzelas get back.

[wardog]

13 minutes ago, Pedroig said:

By no means an expert, but seems like initial problem was a lack of space in the final third.  Doesn't really matter how good your attributes are if there are 7-8 in the box because you put them there.  Which is why spreading them out on the attack will probably keep on working, though double Mezzela might leave you short on defense especially when you lose the ball.  You'll be playing 3v5 until the WB's and Mezzelas get back.

yeah since changes had 2 wins (1 of those was a 1-0 with help of a pen tho) a draw and a 2 loss  so hoping thats us turning a corner. Will keep with these current changes and hope morale boosts. Altho the loss was the St Johnstone so need to be beating these more defensive minded sides. 

[Experienced Defender]

Looking at Kamberi's attributes, I'd rather play him as a PF on support than AF. One AMC would be APM on support, the other would be either SS or AM on attack (depends on his attributes and PPMs). MEZ would be given the attack duty. And maybe CAR could become a DLP on support (not necessarily the same player). So the setup of midfield and forward roles would look like this:

PFs

SS     APMs

DLPs   BWM/CMd   MEZa

I'll  refrain from commenting on the rest of roles/duties and your tactical setup in general because you said in the OP that you are pleased with how it works (apart from scoring).

[wardog]

Thank you for good reply. Probably about time I gave pressing forward role a proper shot so I'll do that. Dlp could be a good option to would allow me to keep the defence minded player will offering more attacking option than previous. 

The shadow striker I've toyed with before but my 5 Cams including hyndman who usually plays in the 3 instead don't really have the stats for it. Thought Christie might could convert as he turned into a quality striker on 18 under ai training but didn't work out. But willing to give it another try. 

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

As you mentioned Hyndman, I play him at Sunderland (my other save) in FM18, sometimes as DLP, sometimes as BtBM, and he is one of my best players so far (if not even the best) and most consistent performer. And I got him on loan. I don't know what his attributes are like in FM19, but I suppose he has improved even more compared to FM18. 

[wardog]

I'll post his stats when next on pc mate. As could be worth a look getting most out of him while I have him could be helpful.

The other thing I've noticed while I remember is often my players seem to be snapping at chances. Thus could be a confidence thing but unsure so want to see if it's not something I'm doing. Often a ball comes in and they're hitting first time. Sometimes at odd angles or weaker foot where a touch would take them to a better angle or onto their stronger foot without breaking stride. On occasion like the screenshots above the defender is closing in so could be very valid that that's caused it. 

However from that same game the only other clear cut chances we got was a brilliant pass and run from gribben hes gained a good 2 yards on the defender at edge of 18 but ball coming from left is natural onto his weaker right. He opts to shoot and a clear cut chance is now closer to the corner flag than the goal. A touch with the inside of his right into his path would leave it around the penalty spot on his favoured left increasing his chance of the finish. 

I've added work ball into box to try to help with this and actually improved the way the team plays but no improvement in terms of chances like this. Is it confidence from a bad run or is it tactics again? 

[Experienced Defender]

7 minutes ago, wardog said:

The other thing I've noticed while I remember is often my players seem to be snapping at chances. Thus could be a confidence thing but unsure so want to see if it's not something I'm doing. Often a ball comes in and they're hitting first time. Sometimes at odd angles or weaker foot where a touch would take them to a better angle or onto their stronger foot without breaking stride. On occasion like the screenshots above the defender is closing in so could be very valid that that's caused it. 

However from that same game the only other clear cut chances we got was a brilliant pass and run from gribben hes gained a good 2 yards on the defender at edge of 18 but ball coming from left is natural onto his weaker right. He opts to shoot and a clear cut chance is now closer to the corner flag than the goal. A touch with the inside of his right into his path would leave it around the penalty spot on his favoured left increasing his chance of the finish. 

I've added work ball into box to try to help with this and actually improved the way the team plays but no improvement in terms of chances like this. Is it confidence from a bad run or is it tactics again? 

Not sure. There are a number of potential reasons for this. It may be a bug, but I'd rather assume it's either about tactics or your players' attributes. Tactically, it can be caused by tempo (higher than optimal relative to your players' abilities) or lack of better options (usually due to either a wrong setup of roles and duties or some other tactical instructions). Plus, on higher mentalities players generally tend to shoot more often and take more risks, both in terms of shooting and passing.

[wardog]

Thanks all really apprechiate the continued help. This is how the current tactic looks. Our form has still been hit and miss, we were starting to look good but loses to St Johnstone and Killie still provide some worry as these highlight that I can compete with the teams who come out but the ones that sit in still providing an issue. 

 

 

Also for @Experienced Defender here is Hyndman who is now in that DLPs role

 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, wardog said:

Also for @Experienced Defender here is Hyndman who is now in that DLPs role

 

DLP would definitely be my choice for Hyndman's role. 

 

1 hour ago, wardog said:

This is how the current tactic looks. Our form has still been hit and miss, we were starting to look good but loses to St Johnstone and Killie still provide some worry as these highlight that I can compete with the teams who come out but the ones that sit in still providing an issue. 

I may be wrong, but think you're using a number of unnecessary instructions which only complicate your tactic to no purpose. Here is what I would remove first: be more expressive, pass into space and more direct pass (and would start with standard tempo). Later, depending on what I see on the pitch, some instructions could be tweaked further. And definitely don't use the same tactic against each opponent (at least mentality should be adjusted).

The same goes for the Out of Possession section. I cannot tell you exactly what should be removed and what should remain because I don't know your team (players' abilities), but there is no reason for so aggressive defending. What I do know is that I would certainly avoid "Get Stuck In" and would not play (much) higher d-line, (much) higher LOE and tighter marking all at once (some of these would have to be removed, because all applied at the same time tend to compromise your defensive shape to a great degree).

[wardog]

So after reviewing things we'd actually dropped further in chance conversion and dropped to 7% over next 80 shots. Hitting target less to. Stripped the tactic right back to  basics and will slowly build back up and see if i can spot the issues. 

 

This game was after stripping back to basics. The opposition keeper got motm first time ive seen that in a couple of versions of FM a keeper getting motm for either side. Which I guess was nice to see. Other than the keeper is above his level rating in game isnt very good and pulled off so many worldie saves. This is just another example of a serious flaw that we've had all season.