Phantom injuries

[scass]

What is anyone else's experience with this:

 

I have players who "take a knock" and want to come off. Sometimes the orange "INJ" icon shows, at which point I take them off. At other times it doesn't but their condition drops drastically then starts to recover. After the game, they'll sometimes be injured, but the INJ icon seems to have no bearing on this.  Sometimes I take them off as a precaution, sometimes I don't take them off straight away to see if they recover. But a lot of the time they simply seem fine after the game. It seems to happen with Martial a lot - is this just a not-so-subtle way of suggesting they're not up for it?

[Neil Brock]

Just means they've picked up a knock but hasn't developed into a long (as in longer than the duration of the match)-lasting injury. There's essentially three types of injuries - a  general'knock' where their condition is affected, an orange knock which can affect their condition and also mean a certain part of their body is more vulnerable and a red injury where they have to be withdrawn.

Red injuries will also develop into full injury. Orange injuries can develop into a full injury. Non-orange or red 'knocks' mean the player can pick up an injury due to low condition, but there isn't a specific body area which is more vulnerable.

Does that make sense? 

[Tom8983]

21 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

Red injuries will also develop into full injury. Orange injuries can develop into a full injury. Non-orange or red 'knocks' mean the player can pick up an injury due to low condition, but there isn't a specific body area which is more vulnerable.

Does that make sense? 

No, it doesn't. The explanation makes sense, but the thinking behind it seems flawed. You seem to be saying that if a player takes a 'non-orange/red' knock to a leg affecting his condition, he is now more prone to pick up an injury anywhere, not just where he took the knock. Which is ridiculous. You don't become more susceptible to a gashed head because you took a knock to an ankle!

[forameuss]

On 4/28/2018 at 09:24, Tom8983 said:

No, it doesn't. The explanation makes sense, but the thinking behind it seems flawed. You seem to be saying that if a player takes a 'non-orange/red' knock to a leg affecting his condition, he is now more prone to pick up an injury anywhere, not just where he took the knock. Which is ridiculous. You don't become more susceptible to a gashed head because you took a knock to an ankle!

If your ankle has taken a knock, then I'd imagine you're going to doing everything in the game going forward in a reduced manner.  Slower to every ball, unable to fully commit to tackles/jumping etc.  Given that, it's easy to see why you'd be more susceptible to further injuries, particularly with your example.  Nothing ridiculous about it.

[Neil Brock]

On 28/04/2018 at 09:24, Tom8983 said:

No, it doesn't. The explanation makes sense, but the thinking behind it seems flawed. You seem to be saying that if a player takes a 'non-orange/red' knock to a leg affecting his condition, he is now more prone to pick up an injury anywhere, not just where he took the knock. Which is ridiculous. You don't become more susceptible to a gashed head because you took a knock to an ankle!

The player has had something occur which has lowered their condition considerably. An example of this could be when a player is winded. Now, because they are tired they are more likely to pick up a strain or sprain. They are more likely to move in a sub-optimal manner or make a bad decision which could contribute to the player picking up an injury. Lower condition means a player will not be able to perform to their best ability and will increase the chance of injury. 

[Snorks]

On 4/28/2018 at 20:24, Tom8983 said:

No, it doesn't. The explanation makes sense, but the thinking behind it seems flawed. You seem to be saying that if a player takes a 'non-orange/red' knock to a leg affecting his condition, he is now more prone to pick up an injury anywhere, not just where he took the knock. Which is ridiculous. You don't become more susceptible to a gashed head because you took a knock to an ankle!

Not a fair comparison really, the chance of receiving a gashed head is the same whether you have an injured ankle or not, or at least the increased chance is minimal. The 'Condition' indicator isn't simply a 'likelihood of injury' indicator.

 

A general 'knock' or unflagged injury in a match, is one that hurts like buggery for ten minutes or so but you run it off - perhaps after some magic spray - so your performance is reduced temporarily and therefore, your fitness is reduced.

An Orange flagged injury is one that might be OK to finish the game, but might have longer term implications - someone stamps on the foot, player can continue after treatment on the sideline, but after the match scans show a cracked metatarsal, or scans show it is just a bruise.

Orange flags and I will look to sub him off regardless as long as I can afford the subs. If not, I will reduce his mentalities to protect him.

[Tom8983]

8 hours ago, Snorks said:

Not a fair comparison really, the chance of receiving a gashed head is the same whether you have an injured ankle or not, or at least the increased chance is minimal. The 'Condition' indicator isn't simply a 'likelihood of injury' indicator.

Exactly.

 

8 hours ago, Snorks said:

A general 'knock' or unflagged injury in a match, is one that hurts like buggery for ten minutes or so but you run it off - perhaps after some magic spray - so your performance is reduced temporarily and therefore, your fitness is reduced.

Yep, fully agreed. Most players irl will have that at some point in every single game, or so it seems. Doesn't mean that they're therefore more susceptible to other unrelated injuries for the rest of the game. Maybe for that 10 minutes, but no longer. If a player has taken a knock that could get worse over the course of the game and lead to further injuries/risk of injuries, it's serious enough that it should be highlighted by the orange flag. Having a player finish the game with an orange flag and then mysteriously getting rid of it straight after because it didn't get worse is much more preferable than the current way of a player finishing with reduced condition but no orange flag, only to be told afterwards that he's going to be out for a few days/a week with an orange flagged injury.

[scass]

On 27/4/2018 at 12:05, Neil Brock said:

Just means they've picked up a knock but hasn't developed into a long (as in longer than the duration of the match)-lasting injury. There's essentially three types of injuries - a  general'knock' where their condition is affected, an orange knock which can affect their condition and also mean a certain part of their body is more vulnerable and a red injury where they have to be withdrawn.

Red injuries will also develop into full injury. Orange injuries can develop into a full injury. Non-orange or red 'knocks' mean the player can pick up an injury due to low condition, but there isn't a specific body area which is more vulnerable.

Does that make sense? 

 

11 hours ago, Tom8983 said:

Exactly.

 

Yep, fully agreed. Most players irl will have that at some point in every single game, or so it seems. Doesn't mean that they're therefore more susceptible to other unrelated injuries for the rest of the game. Maybe for that 10 minutes, but no longer. If a player has taken a knock that could get worse over the course of the game and lead to further injuries/risk of injuries, it's serious enough that it should be highlighted by the orange flag. Having a player finish the game with an orange flag and then mysteriously getting rid of it straight after because it didn't get worse is much more preferable than the current way of a player finishing with reduced condition but no orange flag, only to be told afterwards that he's going to be out for a few days/a week with an orange flagged injury.

Yes, thanks Neil - though Tom8983 is right when he says :

"Having a player finish the game with an orange flag and then mysteriously getting rid of it straight after because it didn't get worse is much more preferable than the current way of a player finishing with reduced condition but no orange flag, only to be told afterwards that he's going to be out for a few days/a week with an orange flagged injury."

 

If the guesswork is supposed to be part of the game, fine, but it does sometimes feel a little inconsistent.

[scass]

On 30/4/2018 at 11:41, forameuss said:

If your ankle has taken a knock, then I'd imagine you're going to doing everything in the game going forward in a reduced manner.  Slower to every ball, unable to fully commit to tackles/jumping etc.  Given that, it's easy to see why you'd be more susceptible to further injuries, particularly with your example.  Nothing ridiculous about it.

Well, let's not say ridiculous, then. Let's say illogical. I think the potential inconsistency deserves a little more reflection than blanket dismissal.  The ME, everyone would surely agree, is not really meant to look like a video if a football match. It would unfair and unreasonable to expect it to. I think the situation might be resolved by putting an orange flag on a knock, and letting you decide whether to risk it or not.  That's what happens in a real football match. A soft tissue injury is more likely to be problematic than an impact injury like a "bruised ankle", for example. But as Tom8983 says, better to feel you're actually taking a chance as part of the gameplay, because a player is too important to take off, or taking him off as a precaution because you have a big match in a few days, than for it to come out of the blue. Otherwise, it's just going to feel like a lottery.

[Neil Brock]

15 hours ago, scass said:

Well, let's not say ridiculous, then. Let's say illogical. I think the potential inconsistency deserves a little more reflection than blanket dismissal.  The ME, everyone would surely agree, is not really meant to look like a video if a football match. It would unfair and unreasonable to expect it to. I think the situation might be resolved by putting an orange flag on a knock, and letting you decide whether to risk it or not.  That's what happens in a real football match. A soft tissue injury is more likely to be problematic than an impact injury like a "bruised ankle", for example. But as Tom8983 says, better to feel you're actually taking a chance as part of the gameplay, because a player is too important to take off, or taking him off as a precaution because you have a big match in a few days, than for it to come out of the blue. Otherwise, it's just going to feel like a lottery.

I think that's a fair point. It's maybe not as straight-forward or obvious as it should be. From brainstorming perspective here (as interested to hear thoughts) do you think there are any incidents that could occur in a match which could potentially cause a players in-match condition to drop, but NOT cause an orange or red injury?

For me the only ones I could really imagine would be say being winded, or perhaps cramp? But the latter would generally only happen to players with low match fitness towards the end of a game. As said, would be interested to hear thoughts on this. 

[ajsr1982]

I always thought of it as the difference between being able to 'run an injury off' or not. If a player gets a kick on the ankle, he might be a bit tender for 5-10 mins, but the day after, he's still okay to take part in training.

One thing I've noticed though is that I get conflicting information at times. On the 'overview' screen during a match, I can see a player has reduced condition, but when the match screen flicks up for a highlight, he has the orange injury icon. The icon should be present in both screens, yes?

The orange icon is the point at which I'll make a sub, so it's useful to know.

[scass]

23 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

I think that's a fair point. It's maybe not as straight-forward or obvious as it should be. From brainstorming perspective here (as interested to hear thoughts) do you think there are any incidents that could occur in a match which could potentially cause a players in-match condition to drop, but NOT cause an orange or red injury?

For me the only ones I could really imagine would be say being winded, or perhaps cramp? But the latter would generally only happen to players with low match fitness towards the end of a game. As said, would be interested to hear thoughts on this. 

I've seen players irl who you'd think were match fit succumb to cramp, so I'm not sure that match fitness is the only factor there. As for what might lower condition but not cause an orange flag - arm injuries? cut over the eye ? (I'm only enough to remember Jaap Stam's impassive face as his eyebrow injury was stitched at the 2000 Euros). One thing I would say is that having watched football over the years at a number of professional levels, most players don't like coming off. Iy can often be a good indicator of how problematic an injury is - maybe vary "taken a knock and wants to come off?"

[Neil Brock]

20 hours ago, ajsr1982 said:

I always thought of it as the difference between being able to 'run an injury off' or not. If a player gets a kick on the ankle, he might be a bit tender for 5-10 mins, but the day after, he's still okay to take part in training.

One thing I've noticed though is that I get conflicting information at times. On the 'overview' screen during a match, I can see a player has reduced condition, but when the match screen flicks up for a highlight, he has the orange injury icon. The icon should be present in both screens, yes?

The orange icon is the point at which I'll make a sub, so it's useful to know.

Yeah the latter bit you mention there sounds like a UI bug with the orange flag not appearing correctly. Will mention it to the UI guys.