CMO Announcement 11

[Kozak]

On topic here please!

[BelfastNiall]

Deano, nice to hear a few ideas coming from yourself. However, I feel "Drop In Games" are a waste of time and I'll predict now that the idea would last about as long as a Wolves clean sheet at Highbury.

This is precisely because drop in games have no longevity, and lets face it, most new players already know how to play champ and aren't looking for a night spent twiddling their thumbs in a game with no future.

You've also got to factor in the age level of these new recruits. They are young and looking for action. While a drop in game would show them how to connect etc, what purpose would really be gained by showing them the game then saying, ok, now arrange it for yourself?

It does nothing towards helping new players get a clan game going, nor does it provide any serious gaming. It also does nothing towards preventing people joining games and then disappearing for good.

It has always been very difficult on here for new players to meet new players and get a game going. As somebody said, not many people are prepared to take the time out and email people off the available player listings. So, unless someone is prepared to take the time out, have a twice weekly chat session for all new comers, and encourage them to get a clan started and actively work to make it happen, I can't see any of these ideas having any effect whatsoever.

So why not organise a twice weekly session on chat to introduce new players to the online scene and each other, explain the rules, how it is different from single player and so on. Then the moderator (aka Dogs, needs to take on responsibility for these people) and actively encourage/cajole these people into sorting out a workable system.

Otherwise, you have the same old problem of people joining, going "want a game", their thread is closed, and who could be bothered with that...?

You are right in that new players need to be encouraged, but the only way to do that is to actually get them involved in a serious online game. So unless the serious clans actively recruit these people (and I've taken in a lot of newcomers and they have all been class) then they need to be helped pro-actively to sort one out.

[This message was edited by BelfastNiall on 27 December 2003 at 23:48.]

[Goldy]

Of course the idea is a good one and would have to be thought about intensively on how we would go about such a "drop in sessions".

Now its not going to be easy for established clans to take in new recruits, of course in an ideal world it'd be great if they all could take someone into their game but there can be a big risk in taking new people as people who have been hosting games for the past few years know, I myself have had my fair share of newcomers in EFB, ones that i'd hope would be good for the clan, but too many of them just turn up once or twice and then you never see them again, this kind of thing has been experienced by many people and its one of the reasons why you rarely see a newcomer come directly into a established clan.

Now one of the ways I think this could work well is how Paul Bray has been using EMA, he has his main EMA clan but then he sets up tournaments every so often. Now we could take this kind of idea (this is just an example) setup a couple of tournaments a month (both on different times as some peeps can only play during the week and others just at weekends). These can include some regulars/established players but be mainly filled with Newcomers,this way not only do they get their online experience but also get to play with members who know the ropes and discuss problems/ideas etc with them about the online scene and get to know what its all about.

SO you have your established clans, the Scots, EFB, EMA etc and then these tournaments, this way the established clans will also be able to spot new talent and of course (if spaces are available) invite them to their clan if they feel they are committed enough to the course.

This way hopefully new comers may be able to get more rewarded for their efforts and give them something to strive for. To be a winner one month you will want to prove yourself against more experienced players to show that your not just a one hit wonder. eg "CMO August Tournament Winner".

Now in Theory it may sound like a cracking idea, I certainly think it does, but as good as it may sound we do hit obstacles with such an idea, lets think about it, who's going to host these games? most experienced players are busy with their own clan game and will struggle to find time to host a game at different times? who's going to organise the tournaments? how many people will we let player per tournament? etc etc etc There are lots of questions that would have to be carefully thought through.

Its certainly not going to be easy no matter what idea we go with but as long as we work together it should give us more ideas and hopefully also more solutions to the problems that we face with these ideas.

To change subject slightly, some of us appear to have forgotten that this thread is for brain storming ideas as mentioned above by Dogs, after all, why have a off-topic thread if your not going to use it.

cheers.

[BelfastNiall]

Goldy, it's all vey well you saying "of course the idea is a good one" then not giving any reasons whatsoever as to why it is A: A Good Idea, or B: even workable, as you seem to acknowledge in your latest effort.

What a lot of you "experienced" guys seem to do, is overlook a lot of the new talent. For example, you state "I myself have had my fair share of newcomers in EFB, ones that i'd hope would be good for the clan, but too many of them just turn up once or twice and then you never see them again". Ok, I think every host would agree with this statement, yet all of you appear to reject the idea of a blacklist for said people. And indeed none of you have come up with any ideas to the contrary as to how to deal with this problem. So what is the point of this thread? Are you guys in "power" going to deal with this issue or not? Or will it again be brushed over?

Players are pointed to the new player list, yet when I point out that all my new players have been both reliable, committed, and indeed very good CM players, you describe it in derogatory terms ie: "you rarely see a newcomer come directly into a established clan". So is the problem the new players or indeed the existing ones. Face it, what are the established players and mods doing to help newcomers? Nothing, and you admit it yourself in ur latest post, but apart from the fact you'd like to nick talent.

I'll be honest, this is ridiculous. Drop in games will offer little as I said. It may have some short term success but as for longevity, I very much doubt it. You'd be much better trying to help newcomers organise a game, through positive interaction, and through the twice weekly chatroom, than what I have heard tonight. This whole thread is not supposed to be about the "established clans, the Scots, EFB, EMA", but about how to integrate new users, end of...

[Goldy]

If people are not commited to having a long term game and only turn up twice please tell me how the solution on getting them to play more than that if they themselves cant be arsed? Answer : there aint one.

Now a Blacklist does not resolve any problems whats so ever because quite frankly thats putting people down.

Now if you still have not understood the idea of this thread why post in it? The thread is for IDEAS, we're giving ideas forward that can be discussed, this stuff isnt final and we're not gonna go ahead with them straight away, we want to see what ideas everyone has for the forum and how they believe we should go forward and address some of the current issues. We didnt say we're going to have all the solutions in this thread, its to discuss the ideas on how its possible to resolve them.

Now I hosted a game for a year and a half, yes you can get very good newcomers, but when you have hosted and played the same game for that amount of time you get through quite a lot of newcomers and thats the point we're making out in this thread, a lot of them dont want long term games, they just want a quick spin at CM online.

Now what are we doing to help newcomers, starting this thread is our starting point if you hadnt realised this.

Now we all have different views and opinions about different subjects, thats were this thread here comes in, its not for making arguements, its for discussion and we want not just your views on peoples ideas, we want to get as many opinions and views on the subject as possible, someone says idea by X person is crap.....then of course Person Y will give their opinion why they think it is and gives an idea of their own.

Then Person A, B, C, D, E S,T,U & V come along and give more opinions and ideas. These matters unfortunately do not solve overnight, be fantastic if they did but their not going too thats life.

We are trying to make the forum better for everyone, the only way we're going to do that is by getting as many ideas and opinions as possible.

I can see your point of view as can many others but we already know what the problem is about newcomers.

NB : Reading through the available player listings thread, a lot of them do not want to start a clan/host. This is probably cos they don't know what it involves and prefer to have a game first, thats one reason why I support he idea of a so called "drop in game".

[dogs]

good healthy debate here , i'm liking the fact that were are having alot of thought provoking discussions.

My opinion at this early stage on Deano's, Niall's and Goldy's subject is as follows.

Carl i like your idea but i believe it would take a heavy commitment to find experienced hosts that would be able to dedicate the time outside their clan games to facilitate these drop in games to give newcomers a taster. If i'm talking bull here give me a counter argument. i do see where you are coming from as i believe that the amount of new players who come into the online scene try a game and find its not their cup of tea is still quite high. This is a pain in the arse for hosts. A compromise would be goldy's idea of the monthly tournement which would be alot easier to manage. The thing is to find a balance which doesnt compromise both host and new user. A non clan game envronment would not burn a host and owuld not put pressure on a new user who doesnt want to start his own clan etc etc but still wants to see if he likes the online game. Niall good idea on the chatroom, but would the new improved faq not aid the newcomers with regards most queries, or do you feel a more hands on personal touch is needed.

I'm a bit inebriated tonight so the above might not be that legible : great posts tho lads.

[dogs]

also i still feel that this is an online forum, covering for all. Should we offer a service for those who dont want a clan game.

who dont want long term game.

would the drop in game then sound more plausible?

[DeafParrot]

This thread makes very interesting reading for me, although whenever i try to write an opinion on the subject it turns into drivel.

I think the vast majority of the people who cause the problem are the younger members of the boards, a bit of a sweeping generalisation, but it seems to be a lot of the under 16's have no real grasp of dedication or commitment. (correct me if I'm wrong)

I don't really think that much more can be done other than raising the age limit for the message board, and thats not going to happen.

Jeez, that was my best attempt so far, and that was rubbish too!!

[DeafParrot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr X:

also i still feel that this is an online forum, covering for all.

Should we offer a service for those who dont want a clan game

who dont wanta long term game,

whould the drop in game then sound more plausible?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've always thought seperate forums would be a good idea, for long term and short term games, that way they could be seperated more easily.

[BelfastNiall]

Goldy, it is of course accepted that if people can’t be arsed, then there is nothing that can be done about it. That’s why the clan system that was introduced is effective, as it does sort out the committed from the uncommitted.

However, it cannot be denied, and I’ve seen it supported by other clan users, that some people do want to play online, yet have a basic disregard for the efforts of the host or the impact on an online game that they have, by turning up for one night then disappearing after affecting the game. You have hosted so you obviously recognize this problem. Spending three to four hours buying players etc, then to find that one has just left, influences the game dependant on signings. To see these people turn up again and again looking for games, without recourse is unacceptable and particularly galling to the host and participants. Why should I just have to accept this, and why should a person not be informed on joining online, that a deterrent is there to prevent this behaviour. If this is so widely recognized, why is nothing being done? Why should these people not be put down, when they are in effect spoiling honest players (which should be the priority) from having a full and complete online experience. There is no justification for this at all. No-one is suggesting the blacklist should be an easy accessory. By going through proper channels it could be implemented.

I’ll ignore the ideas stuff as I have provided ideas, been challenged, knocked ideas and again been challenged. I’m only on this thread to provide feedback from my own experiences, so that makes my view as worthwhile as the guy I disagree with. Newcomers can only be helped by facilitation, and although I think drop in games would not work or last, the most important point is that moderators/helpers need to take a more pro-active approach to helping these people out. That is, I think a twice weekly chat session and official help would be more productive than an example game. Just an opinion as is the drop in games idea. Again I don’t think this would help re: potential hosts, as drop ins wouldn’t be hosting…See above for reasons against this idea…

[dogs]

niall your ideas are welcome, like i said this is a thread for ideas, and opinions. This is a good healthy debate, as obviously alot of the cmo community have conflicting ideas on how this forum should be run, so expect to be challenged

You are backing up your argument well. Like i said this thread will hopefully contain lots of ideas and arguments. Its these arguments that help me make a decision also to what will work and not, incase i have overlooked something.

Ok i'm off to bed to much port here

[Cesc Fabregas the Phenom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DeafParrot:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr X:

also i still feel that this is an online forum, covering for all.

Should we offer a service for those who dont want a clan game

who dont wanta long term game,

whould the drop in game then sound more plausible?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've always thought seperate forums would be a good idea, for long term and short term games, that way they could be seperated more easily.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel the Online forum covers both well enough at the moment. If you only had a Short-term forum can you imagine the carnage that would occur on it. It would only increase the divide that occurs in the Online forum as it stands. With everything in one forum it can be well managed by all those that choose to do so.

[Goldy]

It shouldnt be just mods/helpers that help the newcomers, its also you guys the regulars that should make an effort in helping them, this way they can see that they are being watched by the community and hopefully it will improve some interaction between regulars and newcomers and also new and old clans.

If a blacklist was created it would have to be very well policed and a lot of different things will have to catergorized (if thats a word ((probably mispelt)) for what makes a player to be out in the blacklist. I mean how far is too far, twice? three times? Have you got any ideas on what kind of catergory's should be in the black list?

We would need a panel (which could be made up of a mod, helper and regular) to review the evidence (so a requirement for blacklist could be screenshots etc). Then like a court he could be given bail (A trial to see how he does within the next X amount of time, the feedback can be from hosts to games that this person applies too, if course they don't apply to play in any games, his time can be extended etc). Or Guilty and he's blacklisted.

Just also thought, this blacklist could be just viewable to mods & helpers, then a host could request the information from us to see if X player is on the black list or not. (That way it would keep arguments out of the forum between a player and a host who do not agree with one another and the problem their having).

Just some ideas on that subject anyhow as I can see you quite like that idea

[BelfastNiall]

Goldy, your first point is nonsense when you get to the crux of the matter. For example, EPL Challenge and Ex-Champions clan (which is also very good) have yet to achieve any official acknowledgement despite being running for ages, providing constant reports, and striving to meet the requirements set down by CM Online rules. Why should it be the responsibility of said participants to encourage growth in a CM online community, when no encouragement is provided to them? Why should we bother when, speaking for my own clan, only Dog’s (or Mr. X, or whatever!) had the decency to say good luck. Is it our responsibility, or indeed yours? (I stress: I don’t speak for ex-champions fan). To me this is a pass the buck question.

Apart from that I agree with your Blacklist queries. I can’t stress enough the importance of how only clan hosts/trusted players should have the power to “nominate†a supposed blacklisted person to the “authoritiesâ€. In my opinion, the host forwards the name with a reason for blacklisting. If the host is known as a committed gamer, and forwards the reason, then the “mod jury etc†could sit and either agree or reject the proposal, You’d have to make up your own rules re: time limit, although I agree it should only be known on demand. However, Goldy, I’ll maintain that although this idea has drawbacks, it is best used as a deterrent. This ties in with the introduction chat room meeting, where all the rules and expected behaviour is spelt out. So, Dogs, yes I believe the hands on approach is more effective. Only when these rules are spelt out will people consider how to go about approaching this forum. As an IT person myself, it wouldn’t take much effort from SIGAMES for all new users' details to be emailed to dogs for a newcomer meeting.

[This message was edited by BelfastNiall on 28 December 2003 at 3:07.]

[This message was edited by BelfastNiall on 28 December 2003 at 3:09.]

[Goldy]

I either havn't explained the first part right or you havn't understood it correctly.

We know the situation at the moment, which of course you have again pointed out in the first part of your post, what I was trying to explain is that for the future not only should mods/helpers give more encouragement but that also it would be nice for established users to also show some signs of it.

Oh and also, don't try and tell me that its only Dogs encouranging, I have said plenty of good lucks myself as has Marlow, but i guess as it wasnt in your thread you've blatantly ignored that part and shows that you don't view other clans apart from your own.

As i say, we know what the current situation is and you've stated in your post, my post was about an idea we could strive towards for the future.

[Deano]

OK, every idea needs a champion, Niall has his “Dead Man Walking List†and after this ….

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:

Deano, nice to hear a few ideas coming from yourself. However, I feel "Drop In Games" are a waste of time and I'll predict now that the idea would last about as long as a Wolves clean sheet at Highbury. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have developed an Alex Ferguson siege mentality about drop in games, so here goes …

First off, how is this ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:

You've also got to factor in the age level of these new recruits. They are young and looking for action.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

satisfied by ....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:

So why not organise a twice weekly session on chat to introduce new players to the online scene and each other, explain the rules, how it is different from single player and so on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isn’t is it. I did like the idea of the twice weekly meet and greet chat, as more people would probably attend this than they would read the FAQ's and their ilk, but I really don’t get how this solves the "dive in feet first mentality" a lot of users have on this forum when they first post it also doesn’t quench their immediate thirst for action, and it was then followed by this ….

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:

This ties in with the introduction chat room meeting, where all the rules and expected behaviour is spelt out. So, Dogs, yes I believe the hands on approach is more effective. Only when these rules are spelt out will people consider how to go about approaching this forum. As an IT person myself, it wouldn’t take much effort from SIGAMES for all new users' details to be emailed to dogs for a newcomer meeting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It now seems that what was a good idea has morphed into a you must do this, you mustn’t do that session, I don’t see how this will inspire.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr X:

Carl i like your idea but i believe it would take a heavy commitment to find experienced hosts that would be able to dedicate the time outside their clan games to facilitate these drop in games to give newcomers a taster.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, but if the regulars/experienced boys and girls of this forum, don’t take the time to put something back then we will not move forward.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr X:

A compromise would be goldy's idea of the monthly tournement which would be alot easier to manage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t agree on this. Firstly, it only addresses the problem for those new users who are prepared to wait until the tournament starts. Now I don’t know what percentage of users this would entice, but judging by the amount of “game on now†posts we get, I would guess at very few. Also I would point to the EMA tourny, now I am not saying it is a poor concept but I think it is only for more experienced and more patient people, take this as an example …..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Excert from EMA Tourny Thread - 1st Round Results

1) t o m m y b o y vs theshakers theshakers wins via default BYE

2) Catenaccio vs ChampHolic Awaiting Update

3) robdaman77 vs amcno03 robdaman77 wins via Default BYE

4) Paul Bray vs Falcone Paul Bray wins via Default BYE

5) marlow vs Sandokan Sandokan wins via 2 league titles with Gravesend

6) jholmes69uk vs Stu McGarva jholmes69uk wins via Default BYE

7) marbuck2 vs GoldfoX marbuck2 wins via default BYE

8) joe Westhead vs watford dan In 2nd Season

9) fifamasteruk vs Leviathan1886 Leviathan1886 wins via default due to opponent being banned from forum for supports piracy

10) Powlay vs ROWEY Powlay wins via default BYE

11) m5_rcc vs ajlive4ever m5_rcc wins via default BYE

12) exchampionsfan vs KevinLFC On Season 1

13) Thiggy vs [RoN] [RoN] wins via default BYE

14) AsherDSSc vs Rdysn5 Rdysn5 wins via default BYE

15) mmaattyy vs Dee Both Players are eliminated from the tourny mmaattyy because he is banned from forum and Dee Pulled out.

16) pooly vs patmoore patmoore wins via default BYE

17) Shagwell vs youllnevawalkalone Shagwell wins via default BYE

18) craiguk12000 vs Hyrule_King Hyrule_King wins via default BYE <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now by my poor addition, 11 of the 18 first round matches were decided by someone defaulting, and this is with a lot of people who have played the game online before, trying to organize a similar thing for new users would be a nightmare, and not something that will succeed into enticing people to play online.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goldy:

It shouldnt be just mods/helpers that help the newcomers, its also you guys the regulars that should make an effort in helping them, this way they can see that they are being watched by the community and hopefully it will improve some interaction between regulars and newcomers and also new and old clans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:

Goldy, your first point is nonsense when you get to the crux of the matter. For example, EPL Challenge and Ex-Champions clan (which is also very good) have yet to achieve any official acknowledgement despite being running for ages, providing constant reports, and striving to meet the requirements set down by CM Online rules. Why should it be the responsibility of said participants to encourage growth in a CM online community, when no encouragement is provided to them? Why should we bother when, speaking for my own clan, only Dog’s (or Mr. X, or whatever!) had the decency to say good luck. Is it our responsibility, or indeed yours? (I stress: I don’t speak for ex-champions fan). To me this is a pass the buck question. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you Niall, in that there should be something for clans to aspire to, such as an officially recognized tag or the like, and there could/should be more encouragement from the mods and helpers at more regular intervals within a clan thread upto the point they get the official accolade, but what Goldy says is correct, it cant just be down to the Mods and Helpers to make this forum a success, as the host of a great clan, it must also be down to you and others like you and for that matter all users to encourage and help the other clans who are starting out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:

I'll be honest, this is ridiculous. Drop in games will offer little as I said. It may have some short term success but as for longevity, I very much doubt it. You'd be much better trying to help newcomers organise a game, through positive interaction, and through the twice weekly chatroom, than what I have heard tonight. This whole thread is not supposed to be about the "established clans, the Scots, EFB, EMA", but about how to integrate new users, end of...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:

This is precisely because drop in games have no longevity<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that is precisely the point. The idea behind them is a taster, but it also gives new users a chance to meet other new users, who are available to play on that given day, build up friendships and possibly go onto create their own clan. You could also combine it with your weekly chatroom idea or have a question and answer session while they are getting their taster. This idea wont get rid of all the time wasters we get here, but it will at least make the people trying online play out for the first time aware of just how slow it can be at times along with other facets that they may not be aware of, for instance, consideration for other players for instance in not searching for players when it is time to continue, I think they would understand this more if they experienced it first hand rather than a mod or helper spouting about this in an irc channel

After all that, I propose a change to the drop-in game idea, so I will change it to …..

World Cup/Euro Championship Drop-In Games

These could be started and finished on the same evening, so the night isn’t just wasted playing two or three plague games, it is also an alternative to the tournament idea. This does dumb down the original idea but it will still be a useful introduction to online play

[Kozak]

Yeah agree fall-in games are no good idea. With my clan being in a break till 4th January I would be interested to (help) organize an Euro 2004 Online tournament for the 2 & 3 January. I am only not able to host as I think we need to play this on large database to give all the countries enough players to choose. It would be fun to give all the 16 countries a human manager by draw. I am not sure though if you can add managers to countries where the leagues are not chosen to run.

Anybody interested to help or host please reply here so we can start the organisation the next days. I would like to add quite some newbies to the game. Maybe if there are more than 16 people we can arrange two different groups with the same save game to play the tournament.

[Peacemaker7]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am only not able to host as I think we need to play this on large database to give all the countries enough players to choose. It would be fun to give all the 16 countries a human manager by draw. I am not sure though if you can add managers to countries where the leagues are not chosen to run.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. You could use a ddt file to ensure that a certain number of countries retained their players, and run the game on a small db as you dont need any players except the ones for their countries. It might be tough to predict all the qualifiers, but actually retaining players for certain countries might preference the game towards them anyway.

[dogs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peacemaker7:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am only not able to host as I think we need to play this on large database to give all the countries enough players to choose. It would be fun to give all the 16 countries a human manager by draw. I am not sure though if you can add managers to countries where the leagues are not chosen to run.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. You could use a ddt file to ensure that a certain number of countries retained their players, and run the game on a small db as you dont need any players except the ones for their countries. It might be tough to predict all the qualifiers, but actually retaining players for certain countries might preference the game towards them anyway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

correct.

the ddt file is an excellent addon.

I have tested it with the english league and retain nation players for germany, france, italy and spain.

[Kozak]

Yeah I know the DDT while I created one for my clan .

Just need to know if you can add manager at countries where the leagues are not selected from.

Just like to add it would be worthwile for just started longterm clans that still need human managers for their clan to let their organiser/host take part in this tournament. They can scout the newbies sort of during the tournament

Off course this is also for the longer existing clans, however I want 50% newbies in this tournament. I will start an info/application thread later today if anyone can let me know about the question earlier in this post. Also a good host/co-organisers are welcome.

[Peacemaker7]

I've tested it with San Marino and the Cook Islands

Actually the World Cup and or other Nations Cups could be a decent idea, and I wouldnt be opposed to hosting something like that myself one day a week or once a month or something. It can give people the feel for network play without the hassles of club management and as you can probably finish a World Cup in a session there would be something to play for. You could also just use the same save over and over again for different groups.

[Peacemaker7]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just need to know if you can add manager at countries where the leagues are not selected from. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. As long as there are more than 150 players in the db you can manage that country. I'd suggest using retain players on nations who are most likely to get to the World Cup, England, Spain, Brazil etc, and use a small db. I dont think speed would be an issue because its only gonna run about six weeks in game time anyway?

[Kozak]

OK it will be a EURO 2004 game and I will use the retain countries option. But isn't that only working with EP4.1.3 ?

OK now I'm off for the Man U game and will be back with a post later tonight. People that wanna organize this with me can already post here. Already thanks for the help

[Deano]

Ok, I'm glad you think the WC/EC drop-in games could be a useful idea, but like many ideas, it will only be of long term use to this community if time is taken to organise it in a structured co-ordinated manner, off the top of my head this setup would require.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>A list of hosts

<LI>Agreed days and times

<LI>A (sticky, possibly) thread to advertise the next game

<LI>An irc channel or other agreed method of comms

<LI> etc. etc.

[Blind]

I think you need a list of all Clans that are known about and running succesfully.

These could then be linked to their indiviual threads for wanting players/reports.

Someone else suggested this a while ago, but can't remember who.

I also think that once a clan hits several achievments they should be given some extra status. Eg complete 1 season and be in existance for a month makes you a recognised clan.

If you complete 5 season And are in existance for 6 months then you get your clan at top of forum.

Part of the problem is that people do not know which clans are very succesful and which clans are run by people who wouldn't know how to even go about hosting.

For those who have never played the game before i think some guidleines would help in general behaviour, Click continue then chat, no viewing other people matches etc... These are the kind of things people need to know how to do before they join a long term game. You can either do this via a drop in game where people might need reminders or some other way.

Right my hands are freezing and I can't type much more so thats it for now folks.

[Kozak]

The EURO2004 thread is opened

[Peacemaker7]

Personally I think you could have waited, if its going to be an idea worth its salt, then like Deano says it need to be organised, and taken time over it.

I think we could have a series of games lined up over a month if enough people with experience are willing to commit to hosting it.

But whatever.....

[Jimbhoy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peacemaker7:

Personally I think you could have waited, if its going to be an idea worth its salt, then like Deano says it need to be organised, and taken time over it.

I think we could have a series of games lined up over a month if enough people with experience are willing to commit to hosting it.

But whatever.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's youth for you PM

[Peacemaker7]

Yeah Jim, we've kinda forgotten the exhuberance of youth

[Deano]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kozak:

The EURO2004 thread is opened

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but this is going to be a bit cutting.

I fully appreciate that you have the best of intentions and you should be commended for you enthusiasm. But what you have shown here is one of the fundamental points my idea was supposed to address, and this is try and stop the act now think later "game on now" brigade. For this idea to work and add value, it can't be a january one-off it needs to be an on-going strucutured event.

[BelfastNiall]

Everybody thinks they have the prettiest wife at home

Ok Deano, I have reservations about your idea, but see no harm in giving it a try to test the water. I do think though that the twice weekly meet up for newbies to be given advice etc (not a list of rules) would be productive if organised. It would also be a way for new players to meet each other in a chatroom scenario.

Goldy, I'm afraid I had one too many beers for the road when I wrote my last post (emphasis on last!) Give an Irishman a few drinks and an interesting topic and he will argue Of course what I said didn't address the future, but only addressed an existing problem. I'd be happy to help out if required.

[Kozak]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deano:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kozak:

The EURO2004 thread is opened

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but this is going to be a bit cutting.

I fully appreciate that you have the best of intentions and you should be commended for you enthusiasm. But what you have shown here is one of the fundamental points my idea was supposed to address, and this is try and stop the act now think later "game on now" brigade. For this idea to work and add value, it can't be a january one-off it needs to be an on-going strucutured event.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just organizing a small tournament whats easy to join for newbies to see what the online gaming is. Thats all! Offcourse it isn't a longterm improvement of this place, but you "oldies" can at least take things less serious. I'm having time this week so I organize something. And as founder of the longterm World Clan I know what it is to organize CM online.

[Peacemaker7]

I think your kinda missing his point though Kozak.

[Kozak]

I didn't miss his point.

[Peacemaker7]

Take a chill pill ffs.

[Powlay]

kids.....i dont see what the problem is in kizak organising a game to start soon, who says he wont do a world cup next month if people like this one?

It doesnt stop anyone planning anything, rather allows more time for people to organise something structured starting next month.

Gosh why do people always see the bad in things if they aint organising it! just get behind it and bloody hope it works and that people..IE all of us can organise something that can run with it and get more people enjoying the forum and the online game!

[Kozak]

Like Powlay said, and maybe the African Nations next month

Better we go back on topic now.

[Peacemaker7]

With so many blatantly large ego's around here, its no wonder things got into a state. Oh well, was only trying to help, wont bother again.

[Deano]

Look I dont want to turn this into a petty argument. By all means, organise your game kozak, but the ideas posted in this thread are aimed at improving the future of this community on an ongoing basis, what you have bascially done is charge off under the guise of this thread and created something, that if only a one-off will add no real value.

Now Powlay ....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Powlay:

kids.....i dont see what the problem is in kizak organising a game to start soon, who says he wont do a world cup next month if people like this one?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well this didnt inspire me with confidence

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kozak:

Yeah agree fall-in games are no good idea. With my clan being in a break till 4th January I would be interested to (help) organize an Euro 2004 Online tournament for the 2 & 3 January.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Powlay:

It doesnt stop anyone planning anything, rather allows more time for people to organise something structured starting next month.

Gosh why do people always see the bad in things if they aint organising it! just get behind it and bloody hope it works and that people..IE all of us can organise something that can run with it and get more people enjoying the forum and the online game!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Kozak turns this into a success then good on him, but to really work I personally feel that these drop-in games have to come under some sort of official tag. There has to be structure, if everyone took the ideas from this thread and then just charged off on their own trying to implement them, then it would be total anarchy.

[This message was edited by Deano on 28 December 2003 at 22:29.]

[Peacemaker7]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There has to be structure, if everyone took the ideas from this thread and then just charged off on their own trying to implement them, then it would be total anarchy.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes exactly, which is what I thought people in here trying to avoid. Theres nothing wrong with enthusiam, but if it isnt channelled properly then its just a waste of time and effort. Theres no need to go rushing into things, the world isnt going to end tomorrow, and if it is, then well, theres still no need. The idea is an excellent one, but I for one wont be involved in something thats slip shod, willy nilly and rushed into. Thats the way I am. We should be trying to work together, not trying to prove anything.

Anyway, thats my thoughts, only time will tell what happens.

[Lambie\'s Lovechild]

Why call them "Drop in Games". Why not market them as "Speed Games"

The game is played for 1 season. Open to the first 10 entrants. The game will run for 1 season. Only one season , and then be reset.

10 new players come in. No distinction to be made between new and experienced players. Its a fast game it runs for a short period and its a quick introduction to how Champo works for the newbies and a speed game with a random team for the experienced players.

This will seperate those who have genuine longer term ambition within the game from those who, as someone mentioned previously ,"Are young guys that just want some action".

If the forums had a new game starting every night , and someone completely new comes along and can get straight in without waiting for a group or a clan to organise something, theyd be able to gain online experience and thus build themselves a reputation within the community to get themselves a place within a more structured clan.

With the new game offering the option to force players after a set period, there wouldnt be any arguments over how long a player gets for T&T , or that 1 player takes longer than the rest to do X , Y and Z.

And those who want to glory hunt would quickly get bored and go back to bunnyhopping and wallhacking in Counterstrike

[dogs]

ok lads we have aced the Quick start games topic with many different debates.

I will be interested to see how Kozaks quick start game works out. I'm still curious to how we as hosts could facilitate these quick start games. Unless of course we had a list of hosts dedicated and they provided a game on a weekly rota basis by agreement. I.e Kozak one week then the responsibility would pass to another officially recognised CMO host the next week and so on. This is the only way we could maybe make this work on a regular consistent basis i think.

Ok lads lets keep thinking what else should be seen in the CMO. Lets brainstorm the fix header links and what we think stickies should be used for

[dogs]

i think when potential players place their details in application threads, they should post the definate times they can play.

Clan hosts on a weekly basis when they post their game updates should stiplify their playing times that week.

Hosts policing their own game should find IMO a 75% attendance acceptable.

[Marlow]

Go to Cardiff for a day and miss alot, eh.

Anyways, I personally think the drop in/speed games thing is a pretty good idea. When new players come onot the forum alot just want to get into a game as soon as possible whethere it be organised or not they're not too bothered, hence the "join my game now" etc threads. I feel these hosted games would remove the "start a game now" threads as the people who just want a game quickly can 'test the waters' so to speak with these games hosted by regulars - I personally would be happy to host due to not being in a clan currently.

A while ago we used to get alot of offline tournaments, but they're just so difficult to get together and keep going. My tournament fell apart due to people just being unreliable, the same for many others including Paul Bray's as you can see by the amount of 'default' winners.

On the subject of World Cup and Euro games I think they should be played more, they offer something different to the normal league games - EMA did a World Cup during the pre-season once but didn't really work due to the managers needing the all ready slow and limited pre-seasons for T&T. So yes, personally I'm all for these making a come back.

Finally, as for the stickies once we have the new 'all singing- all dancing' FAQ up and running that's a definite 'sticky' - which should contain pretty much everything needed for CMO - links etc.

[Guest]

After being away for festivities without a PC I have come back to a mind numbing amount of posts including Roscos 3 pages worth of feedback is very good over this period. I have a few ideas I would like to see within the forum. I will emphasise a little more soon on a few ideas but here are mine below

Long term Clans for a world widely available game it is poor to only have around 10-11 long term games at a push. We need to concentrate in assisting players with Broadband, even players on Dial up to move to broadband.

Possible CMO Meetings with Agendas, Punishments etc Discipline will be a key issue in managing this forum weeding out the bad injecting the good

Fully linked Java chat room for all to access via the CMO forum

Re-establish clans at the top of forum page application link as well

Long Term Game Clan Threads Sticky at top of forum strictly for LONG Term Games ie EFB, SCOTS, EMA

Forum Helpers are there to assist in matters, posting issues can be brought up in weekly meetings for discussion.

Forum Helpers are working and do assist, I fail to count how many users add me to their MSN for advise and help. A lot more than you think Will

Dogs will possibly appoint a successor to Silverfox in time. All helpers should remain how they are as they are doing a fantastic job, but we could still do more.

Any games which have been long standing moving onto CM0304 should provide proof of a long standing game with the players current and then will be possibly credited with the status deserved.

An annual CMO Tournament whereby all members come away from their clan games and play in a tourney against all. Champion of CMO.

Old Threads need to be cleaned up, ones without activity for 30 days and closed.

Widely Available FAQ for members.

Not so much as a black list but a A – List B – List C - List D – List Possible ratings ie like on EBAY good bad etc. Player voting comes into this from past present games. This will be policed and reviewed if player makes a bad vote and a dispute occurs.

Web Site, although all the hard work has not been a great success with members, Lets all squeeze together in CMO first and look later down the line.

A possible technical Helper within CMO DaveRH springs to mind

Enchancement on Tips how to start games thread

[Marlow]

Some good points Paul, yes, I too get countless MSN adds

TBH, I don't really think we need a 'technical helper' the helpers/mods/regulars are able to assist with most things.

About the clean up thing, I've already been onto that, reducinng cmo by 9 (iirc) pages, just by deleting old drivel threads - "Join my game now" etc.

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marlow:

Some good points Paul, yes, I too get countless MSN adds

TBH, I don't really think we need a 'technical helper' the helpers/mods/regulars are able to assist with most things.

About the clean up thing, I've already been onto that, reducinng cmo by 9 (iirc) pages, just by deleting old drivel threads - "Join my game now" etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We do tend to pass a lot of users off by stating Please post in the Tech forum. It would be a lot more close knit if we say had a resident Techie/ Techie Group on hand to offer help with issues and assistance with more technical issues which arise with equipment/ firewalls etc.

[Marlow]

possibly, but as I said we have quite a few regulars who are pretty rechnical anyways and the new FAQ will include alot ot technical stuff too.

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marlow:

possibly, but as I said we have quite a few regulars who are pretty rechnical anyways and the new FAQ will include alot ot technical stuff too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again to a degree. I know a few who are fairly useful and a technical to assist with certain issues. There are a few yes but certain issues can be taken off board possibly , and with this team liasing with the Tech bods with any problems which need further escalation. Rather than problems posted on the board we could direct these via email, As time goes on we could sort out a technical FAQ for certain problems which have been found.

[BelfastNiall]

Paul, good points.

Lets look at how online currently works. A new user gets access from SI to use this forum. On entering he finds a load of threads that are totally meaningless to the person, so he thinks how do I get a game going here? As most of these people are young, and the internet is designed to give fast responses, most will probably ignore reading the rules and immediately post looking for a game.

In my opinion this will never be totally eradicated even with all the best will in the world. It is human nature. Therefore, I think there should be a welcome thread for all newcomers at the start of the page. This thread should be well highlighted in that it cannot be missed by anyone.

In this thread should be a welcome to the community message, and it should invite all new members to a once or twice weekly meeting (depending on numbers), where a mod or helper or another known host, could give a runthrough (advice, not bending the ear re: Rules) about how to play online, how to use the community and to organise games. In the meeting the mod should emphasise the benefits of online gaming compared to single player, while also pointing out the negative side (re time, not to expect instant success etc).

It's my opinion that deano's drop in games could be used in conjunction with this meeting, but I feel they will not work as the offer no longevity. By using the meeting to introduce new comers, and to give them a run through, it would then be easy to spot the ones who are disregarding the rules, and annoying the regulars...The they could be blacklisted

I feel the forum needs a personal touch to keep it ticking over, and adding in a CM Online competition, also provides something to strive for. Any thoughts?