New Shouts

[kevgaleuk]

During games is it possible to add some shouts along the lines of "show some composure" for when your players are just hoofing it about (despite retain possession and short passing being in place) or "get it down" for the times when they keep playing lofted passes to each others nuts?

Other good ones would be to do with work ethic - work harder (a bit different to demand more which I see more of an overall kick up the ass), and "make a tackle" (somewhere between the fully stand off and kicking lumps out of people).

[HUNT3R]

12 hours ago, kevgaleuk said:

During games is it possible to add some shouts along the lines of "show some composure" for when your players are just hoofing it about (despite retain possession and short passing being in place) or "get it down" for the times when they keep playing lofted passes to each others nuts?

Other good ones would be to do with work ethic - work harder (a bit different to demand more which I see more of an overall kick up the ass), and "make a tackle" (somewhere between the fully stand off and kicking lumps out of people).

The tactical instructions already cover this though?

1 - The hoofing is either tactical or your players' lack of vision. You need to provide them with viable passing options or they will hoof it. In your case, it's very likely the combination of those 2 instructions, especially Retain Possession causing it.

2 - As you said, demand more covers this.

3 - If they're not, Get Stuck In is the instruction to do that for you or removing Stay On Feet, if that is enabled.

[kevgaleuk]

On 2 September 2016 at 06:04, HUNT3R said:

The tactical instructions already cover this though?

1 - The hoofing is either tactical or your players' lack of vision. You need to provide them with viable passing options or they will hoof it. In your case, it's very likely the combination of those 2 instructions, especially Retain Possession causing it.

2 - As you said, demand more covers this.

3 - If they're not, Get Stuck In is the instruction to do that for you or removing Stay On Feet, if that is enabled.

Why on earth would short passing and retain possession cause a player to boot the ball 40 yards when they have space to run into? If that's the case that sounds like a bug. Surely with retain possession the last thing they should do is lump it to the striker with three defenders around him? I would expect the opposite i.e. the ball doesn't get played forward enough... I get the lack of vision part though...

 

#3 I disagree as I want them to make tackles not bust people apart which seems to be all that happens if you have that selected. I never have either selected I want an in-between so that they don't just fly in but they don't stand off all the way into the six yard box without blocking/making a challenge

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, kevgaleuk said:

Why on earth would short passing and retain possession cause a player to boot the ball 40 yards when they have space to run into? If that's the case that sounds like a bug. Surely with retain possession the last thing they should do is lump it to the striker with three defenders around him? I would expect the opposite i.e. the ball doesn't get played forward enough... I get the lack of vision part though...

 

#3 I disagree as I want them to make tackles not bust people apart which seems to be all that happens if you have that selected. I never have either selected I want an in-between so that they don't just fly in but they don't stand off all the way into the six yard box without blocking/making a challenge

It's not a bug. If there are no valid passing options within your instructions, they'll go for safety first and boot it. Retain Possession isn't the type of shout to use for 90 mins anyway. What you did with that combination is force very short passes, which eliminates many passing options to only players VERY close and then you're also limiting passes even more as you're asking players to pass directly to feet. So if he's hoofing it, it's either a poor tactical setup or the player's lack of vision causing him not to see the options.

 

You're wanting to ask a player who doesn't think it's the right time to tackle, to do exactly that. So you're asking him to attempt a low percentage tackle. That's exactly what Get Stuck In/Tackle Harder does.

[kevgaleuk]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

It's not a bug. If there are no valid passing options within your instructions, they'll go for safety first and boot it. Retain Possession isn't the type of shout to use for 90 mins anyway. What you did with that combination is force very short passes, which eliminates many passing options to only players VERY close and then you're also limiting passes even more as you're asking players to pass directly to feet. So if he's hoofing it, it's either a poor tactical setup or the player's lack of vision causing him not to see the options.

 

You're wanting to ask a player who doesn't think it's the right time to tackle, to do exactly that. So you're asking him to attempt a low percentage tackle. That's exactly what Get Stuck In/Tackle Harder does.

OK I guess that makes some sense on the passing - although what would the passing "options" be? I read retain possession as find the safest team mate to pass to (even if that slows the game down) whereas booting it into space (which isn't set as a request) is not retaining it - keeping the ball and running with it would be retaining it if you can't find a man? And wouldn't short passing mean don't boot it 40 yards?

 

On the tackling I still disagree a bit. Most of the occasions the player side tracks with the opposition as he cuts in and could easily make a stab tackle, step across etc. Is this just the ME because I don't see that as a low percentage tackle; at the least he would cause a ricochet that the attacking player has to regroup from. I totally get your point when running down the line or play happening at speed though.

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, kevgaleuk said:

OK I guess that makes some sense on the passing - although what would the passing "options" be? I read retain possession as find the safest team mate to pass to (even if that slows the game down) whereas booting it into space (which isn't set as a request) is not retaining it - keeping the ball and running with it would be retaining it if you can't find a man? And wouldn't short passing mean don't boot it 40 yards?

 

On the tackling I still disagree a bit. Most of the occasions the player side tracks with the opposition as he cuts in and could easily make a stab tackle, step across etc. Is this just the ME because I don't see that as a low percentage tackle; at the least he would cause a ricochet that the attacking player has to regroup from. I totally get your point when running down the line or play happening at speed though.

I don't understand the question. You are asking players to pass in an extremely small radius around them and if there is a player within that radius, it needs to be a pass straight toward him, not into space. He also needs to be able to 'see' the option of passing to that player. If not, he'll hoof it because he's 'out of options' basically.

 

Pretty much, yeah. It's a player with the ball at his feet, firmly in control. Think of the Hazard types - good dribbling and close control. Jumping into a tackle would be deemed too risky (something tackling settings, Mentality and attributes control) so he's jockeying, waiting for the right moment to tackle.

[herne79]

7 minutes ago, kevgaleuk said:

Why on earth would short passing and retain possession cause a player to boot the ball 40 yards when they have space to run into? If that's the case that sounds like a bug. Surely with retain possession the last thing they should do is lump it to the striker with three defenders around him? I would expect the opposite i.e. the ball doesn't get played forward enough... I get the lack of vision part though...

Just to answer this specific point - it sounds counter intuitive but sometimes telling players to pass shorter or retain possession (which is also shorter passing) can have the opposite effect.  

Think of a circle of influence around the player with the ball - if he "sees" an unmarked team mate within that circle, he'll pass to him.  If you now add in the shout to pass shorter (and/or retain possession) that circle becomes smaller.  He now needs an unmarked team mate closer to him in order to make the pass as his field of vision has reduced - if he doesn't see one, he might just hoof it if he comes under pressure.  This is why, as hunt3r says, you need viable passing options from your tactical settings and role selection in order to make best use of these shouts.

Retain Possession also reduces risky passes, so now not only does your player with the ball need someone unmarked and closer to him to make a pass, that pass also needs to be low risk.  So player attributes such as Vision, Passing, Decisions and even PPMs will have an influence and modify the behaviour.

"Retain Possession" isn't a button to press to make your players keep the ball.  All it does is reduce passing length and reduce risky passes.  Similarly all "Shorter Passing" does is reduce passing length and tempo.

[kevgaleuk]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

I don't understand the question. You are asking players to pass in an extremely small radius around them and if there is a player within that radius, it needs to be a pass straight toward him, not into space. He also needs to be able to 'see' the option of passing to that player. If not, he'll hoof it because he's 'out of options' basically.

 

Pretty much, yeah. It's a player with the ball at his feet, firmly in control. Think of the Hazard types - good dribbling and close control. Jumping into a tackle would be deemed too risky (something tackling settings, Mentality and attributes control) so he's jockeying, waiting for the right moment to tackle.

So in order to retain possession I turn off the request? I want the player not to pass if him keeping it and moving forward is the best option - thats actually my frustration... Retain Possession surely starts with the player and then if he is likely to get tackled he then passes? There is no option to turn off short passing bar going longer which surely then instructs him to play longer balls? Or am I missing something? Is there another setting that needs to be turned on to make that combination work?

[HUNT3R]

11 minutes ago, kevgaleuk said:

So in order to retain possession I turn off the request?

As a 'normal' tactic you'll use for most of a match? Yes. The biggest issue is that you are forcing passes to feet for the majority of roles. If a player is tightly marked, that rules him out completely as he can't even be found with a little pass into space.

The instruction is much more of a defensive instruction to see out a game. Not a 90 min instruction.

 

It sounds you want players not to take too many risks. The most logical and obvious choice is to choose a 'lower' Mentality, like Defend or Counter. That's all Mentality is - levels of risk taking.

[kevgaleuk]

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

As a 'normal' tactic you'll use for most of a match? Yes. The biggest issue is that you are forcing passes to feet for the majority of roles. If a player is tightly marked, that rules him out completely as he can't even be found with a little pass into space.

The instruction is much more of a defensive instruction to see out a game. Not a 90 min instruction.

 

It sounds you want players not to take too many risks. The most logical and obvious choice is to choose a 'lower' Mentality, like Defend or Counter. That's all Mentality is - levels of risk taking.

OK cool; I'll take it off and see what happens. I already use counter what I really want them to do is keep the ball and play a nice passing brand of football

[Weston]

6 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

As a 'normal' tactic you'll use for most of a match? Yes. The biggest issue is that you are forcing passes to feet for the majority of roles. If a player is tightly marked, that rules him out completely as he can't even be found with a little pass into space.

The instruction is much more of a defensive instruction to see out a game. Not a 90 min instruction.

 

It sounds you want players not to take too many risks. The most logical and obvious choice is to choose a 'lower' Mentality, like Defend or Counter. That's all Mentality is - levels of risk taking.

I usually play a narrow midfield diamond and try to dominate possession with a short passing game to work out weaknesses largely through the middle. Because of this I would normally select control, work ball into the box, retain possession, short passes, play narrow, etc., especially when I am the favorites and I want to carefully and methodically break down the opposition.

Am I going about this incorrectly then..? I don't want to be too risky to counter-attacks but I don't want to pick a lower mentality and sit back. It seems very confusing and counter-intuitive to say the best way to retain possession is to turn off retain possession...

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Weston said:

I usually play a narrow midfield diamond and try to dominate possession with a short passing game to work out weaknesses largely through the middle. Because of this I would normally select control, work ball into the box, retain possession, short passes, play narrow, etc., especially when I am the favorites and I want to carefully and methodically break down the opposition.

Am I going about this incorrectly then..? I don't want to be too risky to counter-attacks but I don't want to pick a lower mentality and sit back. It seems very confusing and counter-intuitive to say the best way to retain possession is to turn off retain possession...

I'm not sure why you're asking? Kevgaluk had an issue (you've not mentioned any?) with actually keeping possession and players hoofing the ball. Retain Possession will be responsible for that; I can guarantee it. He can go look to confirm though.

It seems like we're going in circles. I'll rather link you to this: 

 

[Weston]

10 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I'm not sure why you're asking? Kevgaluk had an issue (you've not mentioned any?) with actually keeping possession and players hoofing the ball. Retain Possession will be responsible for that; I can guarantee it. He can go look to confirm though.

It seems like we're going in circles. I'll rather link you to this: 

 

I'm asking because it's a discussion forum and the conversation at hand included new information that confused me so I joined in to ask a follow-up question of my own?

In any case I will peruse that link instead from this point forward.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Weston said:

I'm asking because it's a discussion forum and the conversation at hand included new information that confused me so I joined in to ask a follow-up question of my own?

Yes, but if your setup works for you, then there's no issue, so you can't possibly be doing it wrong. I've explained exactly what Retain Possession does and why it is an issue for Kevgaluk. The key point I've made over and over is having passing options in a short range that are available for passes to feet. If that's there, there's no issue.

[Weston]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Yes, but if your setup works for you, then there's no issue, so you can't possibly be doing it wrong. I've explained exactly what Retain Possession does and why it is an issue for Kevgaluk. The key point I've made over and over is having passing options in a short range that are available for passes to feet. If that's there, there's no issue.

Even if my setup works for me I don't see how simply trying to gain a better understanding of the game is an enquiry peculiar enough for a discussion forum as to warrant such condescension.

The part that is clearly confusing and counter-intuitive is the concept that the game interprets hoofing the ball as preferable to a risky pass in a situation where your team wants to retain the ball. Hoofing it provides, what, at best a 50/50 shot of someone on your side getting on the end of it? It's inherently a very risky thing to do albeit with even less chance of meaningful success than a daring through ball. You also confused me by seeming to assert the only way to decrease riskiness with offensive passing moves was to switch to a defensive mentality.

In any case, yes, after reading this thread and what you linked me to my understanding now is that it's a common misconception that retain possession and short passing are good shouts to combine as they seem complementary, but in reality the opposite is true as using them both simultaneously will too severely hamper your offensive options with an overabundance of cautious limitations, and it's better to choose one or the other for attack-minded sides. Because I build my team on controlling, narrow-passing midfielders I was under the impression that giving those instructions together would tell them to focus on calmly doing what they do best instead of wildly spraying the ball upfield or trying to dribble through the defense, but now I feel like I should allow them more freedom to take riskier passes and by leaving retain possession unchecked and only use that tactical combination when I need to defend or have players less talented in that area. I simply was trying to clarify this new perspective.

Regardless of our opinions on certain tactics I think @Kevgaluk and those in the thread you linked to raise a good point; a conclusion we could all agree on is a little more explanation in the game of what exactly it is you're implementing with the different choices would be welcome. For example, who on earth even knew this?

[HUNT3R]

I've been critical about TIs and the need to better explain what they do. If you at least know what it does, that's more than half the problem solved. Without exactly knowing what Retain Possession does, most people just think it's a magic button to give you +10% per game. Others need better explanations too. Look For Overlap, Work Ball Into Box all need better explanations or PIs/TIs to reflect better what's happening.

At the moment, THoG's brilliant guide is the next best thing we have, apart from just spreading the knowledge.

[Weston]

58 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

At the moment, THoG's brilliant guide is the next best thing we have, apart from just spreading the knowledge.

Link?

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Weston said:

Link?

It's in the Tactics forum. Lines and Diamonds. Just check the stickies.

[Neil Brock]

Reviewed so locked.