AN IDEA: Removal of PA, Addition of "Learning Rate"

[Rickooko]

So basically, what you are saying is that you believe players that haven't reached the top, are either unprofessional, unambitious or lazy? And all of those scenarios can quite easily happen with a fixed PA, as easily as with your system in fact, because your system is basically the same as having a fixed PA.

But the factors that govern changes in LR are fixed attributes (whatever the 'will to learn' is defined as). So his maximum LR is fixed, hence his maximum CA is fixed. Which is basically the same as a fixed PA.

Hm....but lets say the player move to a top division club [Arsenal], the LR i suggested might improved due to better training facilities, better mentor, high level of competitions etc.....

However, a fixed PA will not be changed because of these.

Btw, as chopper99 suggested the "CA system" already take this elements into the game. So what am i after now is a more fluctuating CA system, or perhaps a non-fixed PA system perhaps??

[bigdunk]

Yeah, training facilities etc will have an effect, but there is obviously a maximum effect that they can have because there are no infinitely good facilities. So it's just another fixed constraint on LR, which still leaves you with a fixed maximum CA. It's just that with lower quality facilities, a player will not be able to reach his theoretical maximum CA, which is exactly what whould be happening with a fixed PA system too.

With any non-fixed PA system, you either have to have constraints on the PA (in which case it's basically a fixed PA system anyway), or you have no constraints on PA and any player in theory can become the best player in the world (which is clearly wrong, in my opinion).

[Neb]

This is all already in the game. Players CA's increase/decrease at different rates depending on where they play, what facilities the team have, what coaches they have, what mental attributes such as determination the players have (apparently) and what injuries they pick up. Removing PA and replacing it with this proposed LR would add nothing that you couldn't get from simply improving the development model so that more factors have an impact on the rate of change of CA.

Replacing PA with a more fluid system opens it up for all kinds of problems to be honest, for very little benefit.

Strangely, I agree 100% with this. I thought we had opposing views!

If you improve the development model then a player would never meet his PA, he would be limited by other things. My thought is that if a player never hits his PA in the game, why have it?

Maybe making it impossible for a young player with mediocre CA to have excellent mental stats would 'fix' this problem for me. That way only the good players would be mentally good enough to become world class, the way its supposed to be. might get rid of the rubbish skills, fantastic mental stats at a good club and gaining experience but not improving, which if I'm honest is my only gripe with the current system. (I don't like it on principle, but if I don't look at PA, then it doesn't bother me outside of the previous scenario)

I suppose we all want the game to a) be released on time every year, b) be bug free, c) playable on a normal computer! so perhaps the current system is as good as we can expect for the next few years? Its still the best game available!

[Neji]

If you improve the development model then a player would never meet his PA, he would be limited by other things. My thought is that if a player never hits his PA in the game, why have it?

What chopper said is exactly what I was getting at. The only changes that need to be made are to have a change to the devlopment model, there is no need for SI to scrap the entire PA system. Basically all you're asking for is to have every player have a PA of 200 but make changes to the development model. There doesn't need to be major changes for this to work.

[Mitja]

Maybe making it impossible for a young player with mediocre CA to have excellent mental stats would 'fix' this problem for me. That way only the good players would be mentally good enough to become world class, the way its supposed to be.

spot on. defenetly.

current weightening system of CA favours phisical stats and footdness but I strongly believe that some mental stats are those that have the most influence on a player being class and it's mental stats and mental strenght that make the difference with great players (zidane, xavi or inesta).

[The Glory Hunter]

For me it is very simple. The PA should be the likelihood of the player making it to that level. For example Level 10 should generate a PA highly likely to be between 180 and 200 but not guaranteed. Level 6 should be highly likely to be between 100 and 120 but perhaps a 0.01% chance of generating a PA of a world class player. It is not hard.

[Wayne\'o]

just to add to the debate in another way. when looking at a regen, it said he was touted to be the next John Terry, after paying alot of dosh, i then found out he wouldnt improve much more than his current ability which wasnt good considering he was now getting older, i used FMM to check his PA and CA to my dissapointment, his PA was only 100 and his CA was 95 i was very upset to find this cos i was led to beleive he was going to be the next JT.. so where the game got the similarities from such a young age i will never know..

[Neb]

The thing that gets me (I just mentioned it in another thread) is that if I have a 16 year old player, and I change his professionalism and his work rate, would that make him have better skills when he is 25?

The way it currently works is that the player at 25 will actually have WORSE skills, because the professionalism and workrate use some CA points.

Thats not the way it should work! If i manage to get a young player to act more professional, train harder or push himself more he will be a better player for it. There is no denying it! If you hear what scouts look for in a player in real life, it tends to be their mental 'stats' that determine whether they are signed or not. following that its a base skill that can be improved upon assuming they have the mental capability to work at it.

Fair enough, not all players are professional or hard working, but that just implies that when they started playing they were much better than most. so although they might not improve as much, they don't have as far to improve! so less of a risk to the club that recruits them.

Look at Paul Gascoigne, if he had been rubbish when he was 16, no club would have touched him. as it happens he was very very good at that age, so there wasn't as much risk to the club by recruiting him. Jimmy Bullard was good when he was young, but no where near the Paul Gascoigne standard. he was recruited because he had a good personality, he was professional and had a good working mentality. Which in the real world implies that he has the ability to improve...

The game at the moment implies that if a young player is a fantastic talent, then he's got fantastic potential. but in the real world, fantastic talent means he is good for his age, but coupled with the fact he's only 18 and will improve implies he has fantastic potential. you see the difference? its only subtle, but in real life, no player has potential. All they have is a good ability and the potential to improve (through hard work, experience and training). They will only improve so much, but that is defined by how hard they work, how much experience they get and the quality of their training. if you change one for the better, they will improve more. if you give them less experience, worse training, or they get in with a bad crowd, they will improve less.

To be at the standard of pele, maradona, eusebio etc, not only do you have to be a fantastic talent at a young age (good CA) you also have to have the mental focus to get to the top. to continually push yourself harder and further. There is no such thing as a potential where you get as good as you can and cannot improve more, no matter what happens.

Having said all that, FM is just a game that needs to be programmed and tested. CA/PA although not ideal do mean that the game is fun despite its limitations. It has been like this for 10 years though, so I personally think its time to improve it a little..!

[x42bn6]

The thing that gets me (I just mentioned it in another thread) is that if I have a 16 year old player, and I change his professionalism and his work rate, would that make him have better skills when he is 25?

The way it currently works is that the player at 25 will actually have WORSE skills, because the professionalism and workrate use some CA points.

Thats not the way it should work! If i manage to get a young player to act more professional, train harder or push himself more he will be a better player for it. There is no denying it! If you hear what scouts look for in a player in real life, it tends to be their mental 'stats' that determine whether they are signed or not. following that its a base skill that can be improved upon assuming they have the mental capability to work at it.

Fair enough, not all players are professional or hard working, but that just implies that when they started playing they were much better than most. so although they might not improve as much, they don't have as far to improve! so less of a risk to the club that recruits them.

Look at Paul Gascoigne, if he had been rubbish when he was 16, no club would have touched him. as it happens he was very very good at that age, so there wasn't as much risk to the club by recruiting him. Jimmy Bullard was good when he was young, but no where near the Paul Gascoigne standard. he was recruited because he had a good personality, he was professional and had a good working mentality. Which in the real world implies that he has the ability to improve...

The game at the moment implies that if a young player is a fantastic talent, then he's got fantastic potential. but in the real world, fantastic talent means he is good for his age, but coupled with the fact he's only 18 and will improve implies he has fantastic potential. you see the difference? its only subtle, but in real life, no player has potential. All they have is a good ability and the potential to improve (through hard work, experience and training). They will only improve so much, but that is defined by how hard they work, how much experience they get and the quality of their training. if you change one for the better, they will improve more. if you give them less experience, worse training, or they get in with a bad crowd, they will improve less.

To be at the standard of pele, maradona, eusebio etc, not only do you have to be a fantastic talent at a young age (good CA) you also have to have the mental focus to get to the top. to continually push yourself harder and further. There is no such thing as a potential where you get as good as you can and cannot improve more, no matter what happens.

Having said all that, FM is just a game that needs to be programmed and tested. CA/PA although not ideal do mean that the game is fun despite its limitations. It has been like this for 10 years though, so I personally think its time to improve it a little..!

I think professionalism, just as with all the personality traits, don't take up CA.

Ambition and Professionalism are unfortunately key to getting good players - without them, it's extremely difficult to bring up a player. You'd basically need to throw the kid in the deep end at 16 and ensure he plays in most of your matches if he has a low ambition and/or low professionalism (in truth, having both will probably ensure that he'll never pass CA 170).

[SCIAG]

just to add to the debate in another way. when looking at a regen' date=' it said he was touted to be the next John Terry, after paying alot of dosh, i then found out he wouldnt improve much more than his current ability which wasnt good considering he was now getting older, i used FMM to check his PA and CA to my dissapointment, his PA was only 100 and his CA was 95 i was very upset to find this cos i was led to beleive he was going to be the next JT.. so where the game got the similarities from such a young age i will never know..[/quote']

It's well known that the "could be the next..." statements only depend on three things.

1. Height (6'3 or so)
   
2. Nationality (English)
   
3. Position (DC)
   

[DrEdwierd]

Got bored of reading after a while but Nomis' point about half a page down that a player shouldnt be able to reach his PA without being at a good club is valid and i dont think this because the coaches or training are better etc because even a smaller club like fulham could put money into training and coaches etc. I think what allows players to reach they're PA should be that they are playing with a higher calibre of players all round, or players of similar PAs to theirs, this then allows them to get better or stleast play at there best as there is less pressure on them than at a smaller club because they have less to do etc etc.

[Wayne\'o]

Just as an example of how things can improve as just a guide, this doesn't take into account any training etc. if you use Genie scout, and click the box saying show potentiol ratings, you will see certian stats never change. these would be the hidden personality traits of a player and far as i know also the aggression stat too.

[iamweesel]

I think so CA should be replaced by LR