How to build a flat 3-4-3: a tactical discussion

[lucatonix]

The tactic seems good. I'm looking forward to future updates on matches to see the tactic progresses.

[Zico10]

@Higgins, the 1st Chelsea goal when Keinan comes out to close Drogba, could be down to one of two things or combination of the two: Keinan Man-marking Drogba instead of zonal, and/or Closing down a little bit high thus making him come out of his defensive line.

I normally use the central CB Closing Down a little bit lower(2 or 3 notches) compared to other 2 CB's.

[higgins]

@Higgins, the 1st Chelsea goal when Keinan comes out to close Drogba, could be down to one of two things or combination of the two: Keinan Man-marking Drogba instead of zonal, and/or Closing down a little bit high thus making him come out of his defensive line.

I normally use the central CB Closing Down a little bit lower(2 or 3 notches) compared to other 2 CB's.

All my 3 cb's are on zonal marking and I could try to give the central one a more covering role, the problem is that I should have a quicker man in that position, so he could break the line and recover quickly.

[lucatonix]

I depends how you want to play your defensive line:

option 1) CB---------CB

---------------CB

Here the middle CB covers for the other two. This is probably best against 2 strikers since the middle CB is in a prime position to cover a mistake by either CB.

option 2) ----------CB

---------------CB-------CB

Here the middle CB is a stopper. This probably better against 1 striker so the central CB marks the striker closely whilst the other two zonally cover him.

[higgins]

I depends how you want to play your defensive line:

option 1) CB---------CB

---------------CB

Here the middle CB covers for the other two. This is probably best against 2 strikers since the middle CB is in a prime position to cover a mistake by either CB.

option 2) ----------CB

---------------CB-------CB

Here the middle CB is a stopper. This probably better against 1 striker so the central CB marks the striker closely whilst the other two zonally cover him.

I was thinking to try the second, so to have from left to right:

Dc (defend)- Dc (stopper)- Dc (defend), all of them on zonal marking.

Simply because even if I have my 3 cb's with the same settings, the ME always chooses the central CB to break the line and pick out the lone (or deep lying) striker, but being my central CB not so fast, he often reaches his opponent too late, playing him as a stopper he should be more aggressive and play a bit higher on the pitch so to put more pressure on my opponent lone (or deep lying) striker.

Of course everything could be easier if I had quicker defenders, but we're Blackpool...

[higgins]

Blackpool-Newcastle

Now I'm going to show you my best match so far using this tactic, we won 4-0 but it wasn't a lucky win.

Nothing changed tactically from last match, Avdic is our target man again.

Newcastle came here with a cautious 4-4-2, this was their first mistake, playing without attacking full-back they had few chances to put pressure on my defensive line, in the screenie there is a typical 5 vs 4 scenario where we handle with ease their attacks.

My defensive line is really tight here, players can defend narrow cause no dangers come from the flanks.

Adam with a 25 yards scorcher and Keinan with an header after a corner gives us a confortable 2-0 lead after 8 min.

74' min. Ribas with his back to goal gets a first time low pass from Sylvestre (unchallenged) and knocks a killer ball to Bakambu who reads the game well.

You should notice two things here:

- Newcastle really deep defensive line

- Sol Campbell is a dead man walking, his poor pace and acceleration (11 & 8) won't let him cope with Bakambu terrific speed (16 acc. 15 pace)

Bakambu makes himself some space and has a clear cut chance, you could easily compare this situation with the one I highlighted in the Bolton's match where Elmander had a half scoring chance and see the differences.

A deep d-line gives less time to Steve Harper to rush out, Bakambu has a good angle to shoot cause the defenders are behind him, you could see there's more space on the right of the keeper than on the left, he chooses the right side and scores, 3-0 Blackpool.

79' min. finally Newcastle decide it's time to be less shy and try to attack but they probably become too adventurous, the screenshot depicts the end of a Newcastle's attacking move, see their last man position, they're really slow to come back (low determination?) and we score with just 2 passes, from Rachubka to Bengtsson who hits the ball in search of DJ Campbell's run, Campbell takes the ball forward and scores easily.

4-0 Blackpool.

[mojojojo101]

Just started a new game with Napoli to see if I could get this tactic to work for me and so far Im very happy with the results. Only played 3 competitive games but I have dominated them and won well. The highlight so far has to be a 4-0 away win at Fiorentina, especially when I hot the post 4 times and missed a couple of one-on-ones.

Only problem I'm having is finding quality backup for the wide players, I have Maggio and Dossena and these two are very good in the role created for them here but there is not very many players who can do so well.

[higgins]

Just started a new game with Napoli to see if I could get this tactic to work for me and so far Im very happy with the results. Only played 3 competitive games but I have dominated them and won well. The highlight so far has to be a 4-0 away win at Fiorentina, especially when I hot the post 4 times and missed a couple of one-on-ones.

Only problem I'm having is finding quality backup for the wide players, I have Maggio and Dossena and these two are very good in the role created for them here but there is not very many players who can do so well.

Maggio and Dossena should work well on the flanks cause they have defensive skills too.

[Dawid]

Where is download link ??

[higgins]

Where is download link ??

As I wrote in lots of posts, there's not.

You just need to follow the instructions I posted to reproduce the tactic.

[sostoss]

I started testing your tactic with a weaker side with good results but then somehow the ME started exploiting the tactic no matter playing with stronger or equal sides,with no ovious problems in my squad(moral,injuries etc),could u provide me some help?Do u think if i am ahead i should change mentality?or make the 1 cb stoper?

[Dawid]

higgins could you upload your tact ? With the one which you are using? Sorry for my english

[higgins]

I started testing your tactic with a weaker side with good results but then somehow the ME started exploiting the tactic no matter playing with stronger or equal sides,with no ovious problems in my squad(moral,injuries etc),could u provide me some help?Do u think if i am ahead i should change mentality?or make the 1 cb stoper?

Well, the match engine can't exploit a tactic mate, if you're having a bad run you could change your strategy, from attacking to control, but it's difficult to give a good answer cause I don't know about your game and the issues you are having.

[kimlipi]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[...Eternal Sin...]

haw you doing somthing with free kicks corners etc?

[higgins]

haw you doing somthing with free kicks corners etc?

Left to default.

[Luketa]

One simple question: how do you deal with oposition attacking fullbacks? If AI wingers are pushing forward and committing yourn own wide midfielders, their fullbacks will play totally unmarked, since you play with 3 central attackers...

[higgins]

One simple question: how do you deal with oposition attacking fullbacks? If AI wingers are pushing forward and committing yourn own wide midfielders, their fullbacks will play totally unmarked, since you play with 3 central attackers...

You're spot on here , so far I didn't have to cope with that issue for some reasons, it seems other fullbacks are really worried about my 3 forwards, so they tend to stay back.

I will give you a proper answer when this thing will happen , probably using a less attacking strategy could be the right move, surely only really strong teams could attack with fullbacks too, leaving only 2 or 3 (if using a dmc) men to defend vs. 3 strikers (and 2 wide men).

[sostoss]

ok i don't say i'm sure the ME exploits the tactic ,but a lot of experienced players believe that and i am 1 of them despite the fact that S.I denied it, it is not so dificult to put it in the code (just put the ME try several combinations of settings against u and see witch 1 is more effective) and especially if u have an average team,sorry for the off-topic but noboady can say is sure what the ME does exept the ones who write the code.I don't mean to offence u,and i find your tactic very interesting,i'll try to mess up with the mentality and the CB's

[higgins]

ok i don't say i'm sure the ME exploits the tactic ,but a lot of experienced players believe that and i am 1 of them despite the fact that S.I denied it, it is not so dificult to put it in the code (just put the ME try several combinations of settings against u and see witch 1 is more effective) and especially if u have an average team,sorry for the off-topic but noboady can say is sure what the ME does exept the ones who write the code.I don't mean to offence u,and i find your tactic very interesting,i'll try to mess up with the mentality and the CB's

Don't you worry mate, from my experience it doesn't happen, but I know there are different opinions around.

[nick1408]

I read your post when I saw you were doing the NZ world cup tactic. I thought they were very good for a team with only one player above Championship level at the time. I was also interested that after a world cup with no losses their players didn't go onto anything bigger except Winston Reid and Shane Smeltz.

I decided to try a 3-4-3 like you have but changed my central DC to a stopper, my MR into a defensive winger and ML into the winger. I went for the defensive winger instead of the wide midfielder as I like more what they offer. I usually use a full back in the position and this time is no different as I got Seamus Coleman in on loan.

I am going in with Coventry as they don't have any good full backs but a lot of good DC's and MC's, plus the strikers are handy as well.

[higgins]

I read your post when I saw you were doing the NZ world cup tactic. I thought they were very good for a team with only one player above Championship level at the time. I was also interested that after a world cup with no losses their players didn't go onto anything bigger except Winston Reid and Shane Smeltz.

I decided to try a 3-4-3 like you have but changed my central DC to a stopper, my MR into a defensive winger and ML into the winger. I went for the defensive winger instead of the wide midfielder as I like more what they offer. I usually use a full back in the position and this time is no different as I got Seamus Coleman in on loan.

I am going in with Coventry as they don't have any good full backs but a lot of good DC's and MC's, plus the strikers are handy as well.

Good luck with this, from my experience a natural left back (or right in your case) accomplished to ML or MR position works well in this tactic, I thought about the defensive winger too, my only doubt was about the high stamina level required to cover that role.

[Luketa]

You're spot on here , so far I didn't have to cope with that issue for some reasons, it seems other fullbacks are really worried about my 3 forwards, so they tend to stay back.

I will give you a proper answer when this thing will happen , probably using a less attacking strategy could be the right move, surely only really strong teams could attack with fullbacks too, leaving only 2 or 3 (if using a dmc) men to defend vs. 3 strikers (and 2 wide men).

Yes, it makes sense. I think that the 3 strikers force is dangerous enough to discourages oposition fullbacks to make forward runs. Or at least, if they do this, we can expect a match with a lot of oportunities to score from both sides, since your team will leave two unmarked players (fullbacks) and the oposition will play 2 centrebacks against your 3 strikers........

[higgins]

A recap and some other results

Here there are my fixtures so far using this tactic, the only tweak I made after my last update was to give my central DC a stopper role, in this way he can be more aggressive putting more pressure on the opponent lone striker or deep lying forward.

Then in my away match to Manchester (Citizens) I used a control strategy instead of the usual attacking one, no other changes, before or in-game.

If you look at my fixtures you'll easily realize I only lost 2 games: in the League cup, where I employed my B team and at home vs. Man. United:

90' + 3min. This was how they scored their late winner, the man looking the ball as it was a beautiful bird is my keeper, so this wasn't a big tactical problem......

Anyway the table is good, I don't think we could stay so high all season long, but from what I saw an euro qualification should be possible.

But my starting purpose was another, I wanted to show how a small team could compete vs. stronger opponents using a forgotten and underrated tactical framework, a 3-4-3 system.

I think I reached my aim, buying a better keeper in January (I've still 2.5 Mil. to spend) things could still improve, I'm not going to continue this save as this was a tactical experiment (even if Blackpool is a fun team to manage), so it won't become my main save.

Hopefully I've been able to give you some tactical ideas to use in your game, however keep in touch, I'm a tactical-a-holic so I'll come back here with some other stuff.

[nick1408]

I sort of moved away from Coventry (although I will go back) as my main game was with Everton. After finishing a season poorly I am moving into the 3-4-3 with Everton to see if I can bring them glory. Again, will report back.

[brFM2011]

I'v noticed the formation with a few league 1 sides as I watch huddersfield town & it isn't half adopted really well.

NZ showed how to do it and I think it is a great tactic providing the squad has the players for it, which in most cases your blackpool seem to have.

gd job

[nick1408]

Higgins, not sure how your poacher went when he was in the poorer shooting position but mine tends to shoot rather than pass. I have adjusted him to an advanced forward so he has the ability to cross if there are other strikers in a better position

[higgins]

Higgins, not sure how your poacher went when he was in the poorer shooting position but mine tends to shoot rather than pass. I have adjusted him to an advanced forward so he has the ability to cross if there are other strikers in a better position

If you're not satified with the poacher role another deep lying forward (attacking) could work as well.

[nick1408]

Above is the issue. The blue and pink indicate the runs the players will make and the red is where I would have thought the ideal pass should have been to. Unfortunately, Gueye dribbles towards the near post where the GK and defender force him into a poor shot. This has happened a couple of times. He is set to the poacher setting.

[higgins]

Above is the issue. The blue and pink indicate the runs the players will make and the red is where I would have thought the ideal pass should have been to. Unfortunately, Gueye dribbles towards the near post where the GK and defender force him into a poor shot. This has happened a couple of times. He is set to the poacher setting.

If this happens too often it could be related to Gueye's best foot, the left one.

Playing him on the right he could be more prone to shoot than to look for a cross, from that position, if you want him to put ball into the box you should try him on the left.

[nick1408]

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) my computer overheated and shut down so I lost about 3 months in-game. I am starting again from just after the first game and have made the small adjustment you suggested and it is an unbelieveable change. Much better movement, if not a few too many one-twos but keeping possession is always a plus

[alvaan]

Interesting thread so far, and I have a question for those who's tried this formation and having problems against attacking fullbacks.

Have you tried using Close Down - Always on those attacking fullbacks, preferably combined with man marking from the two wide strikers? If you have, how has this worked out? The reason why I ask is that (without trying myself) I think that albeit you might stop the marauding fullbacks coming at you, you will perhaps then lose attacking provess and such the fullbacks will be couraged to go even further attacking?

[higgins]

Interesting thread so far, and I have a question for those who's tried this formation and having problems against attacking fullbacks.

Have you tried using Close Down - Always on those attacking fullbacks, preferably combined with man marking from the two wide strikers? If you have, how has this worked out? The reason why I ask is that (without trying myself) I think that albeit you might stop the marauding fullbacks coming at you, you will perhaps then lose attacking provess and such the fullbacks will be couraged to go even further attacking?

I tried to set one of my forward as a defensive forward (with very high closing down setting) but I wasn't too satisfied cause after that my striker was very tired and a less effective attacking threat, the main idea behind the original settings is to keep the fullbacks busy with 3 forwards playing in a central position without dropping back too often.

Of course you could try to give them different instructions.

[NakS]

Quick question Higgins...but first it a really good thread! I enjoy it.

So I am following your thread closely as I play sometimes a variation of a 343 (3412 actually) and I am wondering if you have ever faced a 442 "Villarreal style" ( 2 CM + 2 (A) MR/L + 2 STs) ?

Namely with 2 advanced playmakers on each side and a "real" double pivot and 2 strikers who heavily drift wide while the advanced playmakers cut inside and start quite deep. Quick diagram to illustrate

Basically, your wide mids jog back to the defensive line, so you have a back 5 most of the time while defending, with your 2 central mids sitting in front of your defence.

On my picture, the advanced playmakers find themselves in the hatched space in front of your wides mids, mainly beauce they have RFD set to mixed, they are not gung-ho wingers, they starts quite deep and have time and space to choose what to do (RWB and cutting inside, play a through ball, ...).

At the same time, the opponent double pivot sits very deep as well and have time on the ball to retain possession. It opens some space as well for the advanced playmakers to cut inside

And both strikers move into chanels somewhere between your central CB and the touchline.

The (really) good thing is 3 STs allow opponent FBs to be pinned back so wide support from deep is negated.

But, I am wondering how your 2 central mids would deal with a "deep" threat like this?

When I play team like this with a 3412, I usually put my wide mids to defensive wingers ( high closing down and individual tight) sometimes even a specific individual marking to make sure they apply some kind of pressure on the wing, while my 3 CBs deal with the 2 ST. The idea behind this is to prevent my 2 CMs to go out of position, I usually switch them to zonal to protect the center of the pitch

Have you ever face this kind of team or this kind of problem? I would be really interested in hearing your insight as your 343 seems to work really well.

Thanks

[nick1408]

Just played the replay of the game posted above (Chelsea) and won 2-1 with the 1 being in the 91st minute when I had one of my CD (Def) off injured. I have changed the deep-lying playmaker into a trequartista. Tim Cahill plays in this position at the moment but I do have a player coming in to play this position specifically. The Trequartista drops deep to get the ball but also has the ability to pass into a better position if there is someone there. At the moment I have only used it for about three games. In the Chelsea game Tim Cahill provided the assists in both goals so hopefully this is what will happen in most games from now on.

I think the issues I have had is that I played a 3-1-2-2-1 (DM-2xCM-AMR/AML-2xST) for about two seasons and then moved to the 3-4-3 so even after 17 games in the formation the players are only just now beginning to understand what is required. MY next game is Arsenal and after that I would have played Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea, Tottenham and Arsenal all in the first 11 games of the premiership. I am currently 8th on the table with 5 wins and 5 losses so hopefully after Arsenal the next nine games are 6 wins, three draws or better.

[nick1408]

I think this tactic may work best with clubs at the lower end of the table. Higher clubs tend to get more attention to their players so that may be why. I just couldn't get this tactic to work for my Everton side. I'll keep testing with Coventry though

[lucatonix]

Perhaps, playing as a better team made your opposition play with more defensive players to block supply to your front three.

[higgins]

Quick question Higgins...but first it a really good thread! I enjoy it.

So I am following your thread closely as I play sometimes a variation of a 343 (3412 actually) and I am wondering if you have ever faced a 442 "Villarreal style" ( 2 CM + 2 (A) MR/L + 2 STs) ?

Namely with 2 advanced playmakers on each side and a "real" double pivot and 2 strikers who heavily drift wide while the advanced playmakers cut inside and start quite deep. Quick diagram to illustrate

Basically, your wide mids jog back to the defensive line, so you have a back 5 most of the time while defending, with your 2 central mids sitting in front of your defence.

On my picture, the advanced playmakers find themselves in the hatched space in front of your wides mids, mainly beauce they have RFD set to mixed, they are not gung-ho wingers, they starts quite deep and have time and space to choose what to do (RWB and cutting inside, play a through ball, ...).

At the same time, the opponent double pivot sits very deep as well and have time on the ball to retain possession. It opens some space as well for the advanced playmakers to cut inside

And both strikers move into chanels somewhere between your central CB and the touchline.

The (really) good thing is 3 STs allow opponent FBs to be pinned back so wide support from deep is negated.

But, I am wondering how your 2 central mids would deal with a "deep" threat like this?

When I play team like this with a 3412, I usually put my wide mids to defensive wingers ( high closing down and individual tight) sometimes even a specific individual marking to make sure they apply some kind of pressure on the wing, while my 3 CBs deal with the 2 ST. The idea behind this is to prevent my 2 CMs to go out of position, I usually switch them to zonal to protect the center of the pitch

Have you ever face this kind of team or this kind of problem? I would be really interested in hearing your insight as your 343 seems to work really well.

Thanks

I'm sorry, I never faced such a formation, but I think your countermeasures make sense, I always have my 2 central midfielders on zonal marking as I want them to stay in the middle of the pitch, so not to concede too much space in that area.

[higgins]

Perhaps, playing as a better team made your opposition play with more defensive players to block supply to your front three.

Something like that could happen, of course if your reputation is higher your opponents will play in a different way, conceding less space to attack or to counter.

Maybe having your wide strikers on a free role or even swapping their positions could help to make your approach more unpredictable, of course you'll need to have players with high flair and creativity to do that.

[Pryku]

higgins what a link the tactic ?

[Frky]

good tactic, great higgins

[higgins]

Some interesting results Frky, could you post your line-up?

[Pryku]

Frky please link to tactics because I do not know how to do it: /

[higgins]

Frky please link to tactics because I do not know how to do it: /

Frky simply built the tactic following the settings I well explained in my first posts, using the tactics creator and then tweaking here and there like I did.

It's everything in the thread mate.

[Sparx_The_Ram]

Hi there,

The tactic I've created from this is looking pretty good so far with Wycombe in league 2 despite not having amazing players, however my asst says that the midfield is too far away from the forwards, i've adjusted mentality and the dee lying playmakers from defend to support duty but it still says this, should I be worried and change it or just persevere as it is?

Cheers

[lucatonix]

I would say have a look your team for the whole of the next match and then make a decision for yourse;f if the midfield is too far away from the strikers. You could also have a look at reducing one or two of your strikers mentality as well as increasing midfielders mentality.

[higgins]

Hi there,

The tactic I've created from this is looking pretty good so far with Wycombe in league 2 despite not having amazing players, however my asst says that the midfield is too far away from the forwards, i've adjusted mentality and the dee lying playmakers from defend to support duty but it still says this, should I be worried and change it or just persevere as it is?

Cheers

If the tactic works don't listen to him, I wouldn't rely so much on your assistant manager's feedback at that level.

[mikewalker]

I've been trying a similar formation to this when chasing a game. I've just taken over at Millwall in the 3rd season in L1, they are set up 4-4-2 but have built a stockpile of good solid attacking wingbacks and have a regen Lithuanian SC who lacks pace but has incredible techique and passing, a perfect deep lying forward. When behind or struggling to break down opposition I've tended to take off the weaker winger or fullback from either side and go 3-4-3. This more often than not tends to work and I've decided to start games with this formation. I've started a save with Genoa who play 3-4-3 in real life to see if I can learn anything from your style of tactic to translate to my Millwall save. So far Genoa are looking good, played about 9 games, tending to win 1-0 most games although the tactic is yet to reach 100% in preparation. A great tactic, so far the majority of opponents line up 4-3-1-2 to begin with and finish games 5-1-2-1-1 (diamond mid, one up front) and resort to shooting from distance.

[mikewalker]

Finished 2nd to Inter with Genoa, by about 5 points. Left the formation exactly as Higgins OP, ie Attack, for all games. Tweaked things occasionally, no dramatic improvements. Interesting that putting Match Preperation onto Defensive Positioning or Attacking didn't improve anything either, Team Blend was by far the better option. Overall the team overachieved, with GK, DEF and ATT rating well but midfielders bar Veloso all getting averages well below 7.0

In conclusion, this tactic is boss but never really clicked 100% with Genoa, we never dominated or looked as strong as 2nd in the league would suggest.

[higgins]

Finished 2nd to Inter with Genoa, by about 5 points. Left the formation exactly as Higgins OP, ie Attack, for all games. Tweaked things occasionally, no dramatic improvements. Interesting that putting Match Preperation onto Defensive Positioning or Attacking didn't improve anything either, Team Blend was by far the better option. Overall the team overachieved, with GK, DEF and ATT rating well but midfielders bar Veloso all getting averages well below 7.0

In conclusion, this tactic is boss but never really clicked 100% with Genoa, we never dominated or looked as strong as 2nd in the league would suggest.

It's good to see my settings worked so well for you, remember this is not a possession based tactic, its aim is to push the ball forward as soon as possible, so to have your 3 attackers more involved and keep the ball where you could outnumber your opponents, risky but effective

This could be the reason you didn't dominate games, as you said.