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Italy: The greatest European footballing nation and the current world champions

gaga_4_parma

By gaga_4_parma,
in 2010 World Cup Forum

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Astafjevs

Astafjevs

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Also Zambrotta has played 15 league games and come on as a sub twice this season. So he has missed 19 league games...19 leagues games that Abate and Antonini have played. ;) Which is more wouldn't you say using simple maths?

He's started 16 league games, just like Antonini. Saying that because he's missed 18 league games, it means Abate and Antonini have started those 18 league games is incredibly flawed because you ignore those matches where Bonera/Oddo/Jankulovski/Favalli have taken the full-back positions (like at Livorno and Atalanta).

Abate has started more, but that's because a) he's missed less of the season through injury, and, b) some of those he started in midfield or on the other full-back position, in the same team as Zambrotta.

Like I say, Zambrotta's record this season makes a mockery of this comment - "Abate and Antonini having been making him sit on the bench pretty much all season."

They haven't been making him sit on the bench all season, because he's made around the same number of starts as they have, and that is with a relatively lengthy injury lay-off.

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gaga_4_parma

gaga_4_parma

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He's started 16 league games, just like Antonini. Saying that because he's missed 18 league games, it means Abate and Antonini have started those 18 league games is incredibly flawed because you ignore those matches where Bonera/Oddo/Jankulovski/Favalli have taken the full-back positions (like at Livorno and Atalanta).

Abate has started more, but that's because a) he's missed less of the season through injury, and, b) some of those he started in midfield or on the other full-back position, in the same team as Zambrotta.

Like I say, Zambrotta's record this season makes a mockery of this comment - "Abate and Antonini having been making him sit on the bench pretty much all season."

They haven't been making him sit on the bench all season, because he's made around the same number of starts as they have, and that is with a relatively lengthy injury lay-off.

You do realise that Zambrotta didn't play a single league game for Milan for almost 4 months? December to March. Even when he did recover in the new year he was still seen as surplus? The last game he played was 6 games ago...and he probably won't start a game now for the rest of the season.

i think a lot of the italian players will suffer from not playing in one of the top leagues

I doubt it...there is no correlation between league and national team. If this was the case England would have had no problems qualifying for Euro 2008 seeing as the EPL teams had such exemplory records in Europe for what the last 6/7 years?

Google Coverciano (Italy) and Clairefontaine (for France)...these two national football centre's make certain a future is always there!

Also...http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/football_focus/8476119.stm

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Astafjevs

Astafjevs

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You do realise that Zambrotta didn't play a single league game for Milan for almost 4 months? December to March. Even when he did recover in the new year he was still seen as surplus? The last game he played was 6 games ago...and he probably won't start a game now for the rest of the season.

This is the injury I'm talking about - but that you're ignoring. And even now that you're talking about it, you're still wrong with your statements.

He started both of our league games in December, and then the winter break came, when he got injured. He didn't start another league game until March, against Chievo. So that's 2-and-a-half months missed, not 4. And this is ignoring the TIM Cup game he started against Udinese, at the end of January. He went missing after this not because he was "surplus to requirements", but because he got injured again.

And the last game he started was 4 games ago - against Lazio.

Other than that, you're absolutely spot on.

I doubt it...there is no correlation between league and national team. If this was the case England would have had no problems qualifying for Euro 2008 seeing as the EPL teams had such exemplory records in Europe for what the last 6/7 years?

Google Coverciano (Italy) and Clairefontaine (for France)...these two national football centre's make certain a future is always there!

Also...http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/football_focus/8476119.stm

Please don't feed the troll. Ignore his posts, and don't reply to them.

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PMLF

PMLF

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So, what are the chances of Amauri getting called up, now we are getting closer to the WC?

I know most of you don't want him, as he's been rubbish this season. I know Marcello Lippi hasn't ruled him out yet.

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Astafjevs

Astafjevs

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I will be absolutely astonished if he is called into the World Cup squad - not based on my own personal opinion of him, but more because there are a lot of factors against him.

He hasn't featured in a single squad under Lippi, and so only has a few matches to integrate into a group where some players don't want him; he's been pretty rubbish this season, and to compound that there have been a lot of Italian strikers who have performed much better.

But he's still in with a chance, mainly because he plays for Juventus. I think he is competing for two spots left up-front - along with Quagliarella, Rossi, Totti, Pazzini, Borriello and Toni.

He needs another prima punta, so one from the last three names and Amauri will go. And I think the other spot will go to one from the first three names I listed (with Totti guaranteed a spot if he wants it).

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Juve4EVA

Juve4EVA

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So, what are the chances of Amauri getting called up, now we are getting closer to the WC?

I know most of you don't want him, as he's been rubbish this season. I know Marcello Lippi hasn't ruled him out yet.

I know this was said earlier this year. http://www.tuttosport.com/calcio/azzurri/2010/02/06-54641/Lippi+chiude+agli+oriundi%3A+%C2%ABGli+italiani+sono+sufficienti%C2%BB

Not being used in qualifying will also have a big impact. Gilardino, Quagliarella, Di Natale, Pazzini, Iaquinta, Rossi and Totti if he comes back are all more likely imo. Borriello a possibility. Del Piero I hope.

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PMLF

PMLF

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Lippi said that the club form was irrelevant, but he once also said that he would call up players who already played in the qualifying phase. I think he'll not call Amauri up.

Oh, that goalkeeper kit is hor-ri-ble.

I will be absolutely astonished if he is called into the World Cup squad - not based on my own personal opinion of him, but more because there are a lot of factors against him.

He hasn't featured in a single squad under Lippi, and so only has a few matches to integrate into a group where some players don't want him; he's been pretty rubbish this season, and to compound that there have been a lot of Italian strikers who have performed much better.

But he's still in with a chance, mainly because he plays for Juventus. I think he is competing for two spots left up-front - along with Quagliarella, Rossi, Totti, Pazzini, Borriello and Toni.

He needs another prima punta, so one from the last three names and Amauri will go. And I think the other spot will go to one from the first three names I listed (with Totti guaranteed a spot if he wants it).

I know this was said earlier this year. http://www.tuttosport.com/calcio/azzurri/2010/02/06-54641/Lippi+chiude+agli+oriundi%3A+%C2%ABGli+italiani+sono+sufficienti%C2%BB

Not being used in qualifying will also have a big impact. Gilardino, Quagliarella, Di Natale, Pazzini, Iaquinta, Rossi and Totti if he comes back are all more likely imo. Borriello a possibility. Del Piero I hope.

One of the reasons (leaving aside technical reasons that could have prevented him from play if he was Italian) why he didn't play before though is because he was not eligible, so surely at least in his case the fact he didn't play the Quals shouldn't matter.

Anyway, it seems then his situation didn't change much since naturalizing. That's good, as I don't want him to play for Italy. :)

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Astafjevs

Astafjevs

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I know this was said earlier this year. http://www.tuttosport.com/calcio/azzurri/2010/02/06-54641/Lippi+chiude+agli+oriundi%3A+%C2%ABGli+italiani+sono+sufficienti%C2%BB

Not being used in qualifying will also have a big impact. Gilardino, Quagliarella, Di Natale, Pazzini, Iaquinta, Rossi and Totti if he comes back are all more likely imo. Borriello a possibility. Del Piero I hope.

Seven forwards? I think that's too much - not even Lippi with his rubbish 4-3-3 will take that many.

A lot depends on what he classes Camoranesi as - if he's a forward (thus making space for another midfielder), there's only five slots. If he isn't then there will surely only be six places.

EDIT: Having read that again, I don't think you were saying he's going to pick seven forwards. In any case, interesting to see who will miss out for Totti if he returns. I hope Quagliarella - waste of space.

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Juve4EVA

Juve4EVA

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Yeah your edit is what I was going for.

If Totti returns then I'd say

Gilardino, Di Natale, Pazzini, Iaquinta because the last three can play wider to accommodate the 4-3-3. I hope he doesn't push Camoranesi into a role which is so advanced in the 4-3-3.

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gaga_4_parma

gaga_4_parma

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Lippi is a man of tradition. What does this mean? He will be calling two prime punte, two seconde punte and one fantasista.

Prime Punte: Alberto Gilardino, Marco Borriello, Luca Toni and Giampaolo Pazzini

Seconde Punte: Vincenzo Iaquinta, Giuseppe Rossi, Antonio Di Natale and Fabio Quagliarella.

Fantasista: Francesco Totti is the only viable option. Balotelli could have been if he kept his behaviour in-check and did well for the Under-21 too this summer. Del Piero has been ignored and will be ignored again.

Now Lippi always had the option of Fabrizio Miccoli or Antonio Cassano but these two have had run in's with Lippi's son. They have been by far the most inform fantasisti in Serie A this season...and it is no coincidence that both their respective clubs are fighting for that final CL spot.

EDIT: I actually can't remember the last time Italy didn't go to a competition with a fantasista...:o

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Astafjevs

Astafjevs

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Is fantasista the same as trequartista?

No.

Trequartista is what you call in England a player who is deployed "in the hole" - behind the striker(s).

A fantasista is essentially one of those players who can make the difference, turn a match, whatever phrase you want to use. Often, they can (and do) play as a trequartista, but they don't have to. Del Piero, for example, doesn't play there, nor does Cassano.

The difference really is that one is a position on the pitch, while the other is a term given to a player due to their abilities/qualities.

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gaga_4_parma

gaga_4_parma

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It doesn't matter if he was played a seconda punta, or on the wing, he's still a fantasista.

Sure for Juve ;)...for Italy I and millions of Italy fans felt he never could bring his form and creativity to the national team even when given the chance in the role/position. :(

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gaga_4_parma

gaga_4_parma

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Gattuso's been fine when he's played for Milan - the issue is he hasn't played enough. Don't get caught up in all the nonsense people say about him. In any case, I don't think he will start, even though I think his presence will get the best out of De Rossi.

Gattuso was woeful tonight...not just tonight but pretty every game now he is struggling. Pastore and Miccoli literally almost made Gattuso and Pirlo cry tonight... :D

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gaga_4_parma

gaga_4_parma

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You don't watch every game, so anything you say is invalid.

And tbf, he didn't do anything wrong tonight. He was overrun in a midfield where he was the only one working. You're just picking him out to try and make yourself look clever.

When the hell has Gattuso done anything right this season? Whe hasn't he been overrun in midfield? Are you actually reading what your writing? :D

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Astafjevs

Astafjevs

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I think you have to be the only Milan fan I know so defensive of this Milan team...don't tell me you also approve of the current management of the club?

Find me a post where I am defensive of the team. Any post.

All I am doing is defending Gattuso (so one player, not an entire team) from nonsense, inaccurate criticism that seems to find him first because he's an easy target. In doing so, I'm also championing his potential inclusion in an Italy XI. Not stating that it should absolutely happen, but throwing it out there.

Is he as good as he was? - No. Is he playing at his best this season? - No. Has he been the worst player for Milan this season? - No, not even close.

On current form, should he be in an Italy XI over Marchisio? - No. Would his presence, instead of Marchisio, get the best out of De Rossi? - Yes, and this is why I wouldn't be too much against him starting, even though Marchisio is fb and the future. We can win the World Cup, but we need to get the best out of our top players. Do I think Lippi will start Gattuso over Marchisio? - No, I don't.

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gaga_4_parma

gaga_4_parma

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Marchisio he is good but nothing exceptional. He looks nicer then others because he wears a Juve shirt.

Poli, Galloppa hell even Ambrosini has had a better season then Marchisio...

We can win the World Cup.

Not even in my dreams do I dare think this...

It's not even an age thing...as I have Brazil down as my favourites to win and they have an even older squad by my calculations...but rather we lack something in each department on the field. The team is probably the weakest Italy team in my time...I thought nothing could beat the 1996 Euro team...but no this team Lippi is assembling is so much more worse.

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PMLF

PMLF

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Marchisio he is good but nothing exceptional. He looks nicer then others because he wears a Juve shirt.

Poli, Galloppa hell even Ambrosini has had a better season then Marchisio...

Not even in my dreams do I dare think this...

It's not even an age thing...as I have Brazil down as my favourites to win and they have an even older squad by my calculations...but rather we lack something in each department on the field. The team is probably the weakest Italy team in my time...I thought nothing could beat the 1996 Euro team...but no this team Lippi is assembling is so much more worse.

What's the average age of Italy's 1st team?

Brazil's is 28.73, with players ranging from 26 years old to 33.

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gaga_4_parma

gaga_4_parma

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What's the average age of Italy's 1st team?

Brazil's is 28.73, with players ranging from 26 years old to 33.

Average age is 28.87. Player range from 23 to 36... :D

Though ofcourse my calculations were purely guesstimates of who would be chosen...and I ended up with 29 or 30 iirc for my guesstimate for Brazil...

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PMLF

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Average age is 28.87. Player range from 23 to 36... :D

Though ofcourse my calculations were purely guesstimates of who would be chosen...and I ended up with 29 or 30 iirc for my guesstimate for Brazil...

The average age is similar to Brazil's then.

I think 28 is in theory a decent average age for a WC, maybe a year or so older than it should be, but at least it indicates most players are peaking, or just peaked, or are about to peak.

I am writing it in spoiler format as it doesn't belong in here:

The first team of Brazil is likely to be: JC, Maicon, Lúcio, Juan, Michel Bastos, Gilberto Silva, Felipe Melo, Elano, Kaká, Robinho, Luís Fabiano

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PMLF

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Yes, he is going to be a first teamer unless is injured. Anyway, this is off-topic here. :D

What's the Italian line-up you are thinking of?

I think a reason why it's so hard for a team to win the WC twice in a row is that a lot of things change in 4 years but the holders still often fall in the trap of keeping many/most of the WC winners in the team, instead of revamping the squad for the next WC.

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gaga_4_parma

gaga_4_parma

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Yes, he is going to be a first teamer unless is injured. Anyway, this is off-topic here. :D

What's the Italian line-up you are thinking of?

I think a reason why it's so hard for a team to win the WC twice in a row is that a lot of things change in 4 years but the holders still often fall in the trap of keeping many/most of the WC winners in the team, instead of revamping the squad for the next WC.

[center]Di Natale - Gilardino

De Rossi - Pirlo - Gattuso - Camoranesi

Grosso - Chiellini - Cannavaro - Zambrotta

Buffon[/center]

Except for Gilardino, De Rossi and Chiellini everyone is in their 30's...

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PMLF

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Except for Gilardino, De Rossi and Chiellini everyone is in their 30's..

Not good when there will be so many games in such a short time, it will be important to have good bench warmers when all these oldies start getting injured/too tired.

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Astafjevs

Astafjevs

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has de rossi ever played on the left in his life? seems like a massive waste

No he hasn't - that's why you should ignore Gaga's posts on Italy, because anyone with any sense and knowledge of football knows De Rossi will play in the middle. If Lippi goes 4-4-2, with that midfield, it will be Pirlo on the left, like in the Confederations Cup.

why don't you just play 4-3-1-2, since you have no wingers and you need 2 strikers

Agree completely - I think most people would agree that is the best way for Italy to play. The man that matters doesn't, however.

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gaga_4_parma

gaga_4_parma

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No he hasn't - that's why you should ignore Gaga's posts on Italy, because anyone with any sense and knowledge of football knows De Rossi will play in the middle. If Lippi goes 4-4-2, with that midfield, it will be Pirlo on the left, like in the Confederations Cup.

De Rossi has played on the left for Italy in the qualifers... ;)

Not good when there will be so many games in such a short time, it will be important to have good bench warmers when all these oldies start getting injured/too tired.

Yeah...I think Lippi is only counting on re-creating spirit and that being the guiding force... :D

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Juve4EVA

Juve4EVA

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Marchisio he is good but nothing exceptional. He looks nicer then others because he wears a Juve shirt.

Poli, Galloppa hell even Ambrosini has had a better season then Marchisio...

There's a reason why Marchisio wears a Juventus shirt and none of the others do.

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Astafjevs

Astafjevs

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De Rossi has played on the left for Italy in the qualifers... ;)

No he hasn't. Which qualifying game(s) are you thinking of?

Buffon

Zambrotta-Cannavaro-Chiellini-Grosso

Camoranesi-De Rossi-Marchisio

Pirlo

Gilardino-Di Natale

Will be nice I guess if Lippi wants to pick all his players.

That's a good team. We can win with that line-up. Don't like the use of De Rossi in it, but the rest make up for that.

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