Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 Chile Formation: Recreate this on FM?

[paganizer]

I really want to play like this, but the ME just isn't able to emulate it. Hopefully it is fixed in the new version, because lots of interesting similar tactics are showing up in the bigger clubs.

[Mr.Michels]

I´m actually working on the 3-3-1-3 system with river plate from argentina. I use wingbacks instead of using side midfielders, but I need to continue working on it. I have some problems to control the midfield against a 4-4-2 system as my wingbacks don´t cut inside enough to get the full control. The pressure is another item that I need to correct as I don´t think is hard and intense enough.

I use a balance formation, attacking strategy, short passes, more pressure, zonal marking and more movement ( I don´t know how is the name in the english version). High defensive line and the field open in its higher number.

We need to consider that Bielsa´s teams are strange as to defend the lines get compact and press deeply, and on the other hand, when they attack, the players open a lot in the field. That´s why it is difficult to recreate this style.

[Callan343]

I have been using various versions of 3-4-3 or 3-3-1-3 since back in the old Championship Manager mid 90's games.

You have to accept that you are going to concede some avoidable goals in order to dominate possession and control games.

It has worked well in all the versions of FM so far, but it is based on the Dutch system of the late 80s to mid 90s rather than Bielsas set-up.

Still it was good enough to win me back to back Champions League titles and lose another final with At. Madrid.

Sometimes playing with that attitude you will get the odd hammering, but then so did Cruyffs Barca in real life!

[paganizer]

The single most important thing missing in the matchengine, is the ability to use "hug touchline" (or similar) on central players. For example if you use 3 central defenders in a 3 man defence, as it is now, they will never stretch out when you are on the ball. They will all stand close together in front of the goalkeeper, making it impossible to start building play from defence.. goalie will always be forced to boot it upfield.

We can to some degree control the vertical movement, by setting forward runs and adjusting how defensive/offensive a player is positioned, but the horizontal part is sorely lacking with the cut inside/hug touchline only working for some positions. I'm so looking forward to the FM version that fixes that part.

[Mike_Cardinal]

Moves into Channels is the instruction that tells players to move wide off the ball - Hug touchline is just an instruction for players when they are on the ball. That said, the ME mainly seems to see it as an attacking movement, so defenders with low mentalities/little creative freedom are unlikely to do it anyway.

[paganizer]

Moves into Channels is the instruction that tells players to move wide off the ball - Hug touchline is just an instruction for players when they are on the ball. That said, the ME mainly seems to see it as an attacking movement, so defenders with low mentalities/little creative freedom are unlikely to do it anyway.

Hug touchline or move into channels - thought they were both off the ball. Anyway fact remains, as you also implied.. the ME is lacking in (working) vertical options

[DeathJester]

GeneticDeviant here the OP of this thread. Had login issues so this is my new Username.

Hey guys , New FM , new challenge. Again i am going to try emulate this system on the new FM. Should be fun.

We are seeing more teams using a back three IRL these days, ie Napoli in Serie A so maybe there is hope after all.

[papamogl]

Me too I'm trying to recreate Bielsa's tactic on FM12. Always liked a back three and had some ideas on how to translate Bielsa's philosophy into FM. I'm currently testing and refining. Will keep you posted

[Mikal]

Hi guys, I'm looking to do my own variation of a back 3 formation and was wondering if you test with top teams? Teams who already employ a 3 at the back system? Or a team you want to use this formation with?

[Neil Train]

there's another thread here somewhere on "is a back 3 viable?".

i'm determined to make a back 3 work, even though it's out of fashion, so i read that thread, this thread, and also read up on Bielsa's Chile on zonalmarking.com.

what i've found, as have others, in the current ME a ML/MR will act like fullbacks when defending and it will result in a deep back 5 giving the opposition plenty of pitch to run into/get in an early cross.

what i've FOUND to counter this is to play an AML and AMR who DON'T track back. so i've developed a 3232 which i'm still testing but which is going well. it is pleasing to watch and is basically a "modern" 4231 with a back 3 and an extra striker.

i have 3 versions of this and will test them all out pre-season (deep DMs or MCs, advanced playmaker in the MC or AMC role are the issues i'm still dealing with) but i'm pleased with what i've watched thus far.

[papamogl]

Neil how do you defend your flanks when using a back three and only wingers? DCr and DCl are usually slow to step out to the side and hassling their wingers. It's a problem I'm encountering myself (empty space on the flanks for my opponent to exploit), so it'd be interesting to hear how you are dealing with it

btw:

a "modern" 4231 with a back 3

. That sounds enigmatic

[Los_Culés]

To solve the problems with ML, MR acting like fullbacks, try to put the players into the DMCR, DMCL positions, instruct them to move into channels, play with width setting > 17 and against 4-4-2 put them on specific man marking (they should man mark the opp wingers). So in the end you get 3-3-1-3 formation (GK, 3 DC, 3 DM, 1 MC/AMC - playmaker, AMR/FR, AML/FL, ST). Should work swiftly, also under Biesa the wide mids/fullbacks never played too wide, they regularly moved inside, in other words the width was flowing, never permanent, that's exatly what you get with the setting I've mentioned above.

[Neil Train]

Neil how do you defend your flanks when using a back three and only wingers? DCr and DCl are usually slow to step out to the side and hassling their wingers. It's a problem I'm encountering myself (empty space on the flanks for my opponent to exploit), so it'd be interesting to hear how you are dealing with it

btw: . That sounds enigmatic

well, that last post certainly has some good ideas. bascially my flanks are well defended i just need to watch a couple more games in slo-mo then i'll get back to you!

[Neil Train]

To solve the problems with ML, MR acting like fullbacks, try to put the players into the DMCR, DMCL positions, instruct them to move into channels, play with width setting > 17 and against 4-4-2 put them on specific man marking (they should man mark the opp wingers). So in the end you get 3-3-1-3 formation (GK, 3 DC, 3 DM, 1 MC/AMC - playmaker, AMR/FR, AML/FL, ST). Should work swiftly, also under Biesa the wide mids/fullbacks never played too wide, they regularly moved inside, in other words the width was flowing, never permanent, that's exatly what you get with the setting I've mentioned above.

ah! some good thoughts there, i'd never considered move into channels as wideplay, will give that a go with my 3 systems.

however, in a sense i sorted it by having my wide players as AML and AMR and my DMCs or MCs (depending upon which of my 3 systems i use) and DCs close the flanks. that's 4 lpayers who AREN't AML/AMR closing down wide.

[Neil Train]

To solve the problems with ML, MR acting like fullbacks, try to put the players into the DMCR, DMCL positions, instruct them to move into channels, play with width setting > 17 and against 4-4-2 put them on specific man marking (they should man mark the opp wingers). So in the end you get 3-3-1-3 formation (GK, 3 DC, 3 DM, 1 MC/AMC - playmaker, AMR/FR, AML/FL, ST). Should work swiftly, also under Biesa the wide mids/fullbacks never played too wide, they regularly moved inside, in other words the width was flowing, never permanent, that's exatly what you get with the setting I've mentioned above.

would be very interested to hear how you'd set up to defend against a 4231 (that a lot of my opponents wld play). i'm currently hammering one such team but know there will be sterner tests and my current match is not revealing much to me as i'm outplaying them defensively.

basically, what i will KEEP no matter my formation (i have 3 slightly different) is back 3, flat but DCC cover, AML, AMR, 2xSTR, one attack minded and 2 defence minded midfielders the three of which can really play anywhere, horizontally centrally. now, there are two ways of working this: negating their system or ensuring that my attack takes advantage of their set up (eg no DMC so my MCa/AMC is free)/ my MCa has now scored 3 goals in 110 minutes he's not picked up either against a 442 or a 4231 which is really good!

[Los_Culés]

would be very interested to hear how you'd set up to defend against a 4231 (that a lot of my opponents wld play). i'm currently hammering one such team but know there will be sterner tests and my current match is not revealing much to me as i'm outplaying them defensively.

Against 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 kind of formations, Bielsa would use 4 men defence.

[Neil Train]

Against 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 kind of formations, Bielsa would use 4 men defence.

well i won't! determined to get a couple of back 3 tactics to work against all formations. if i focus not so much on what i have to do to stop them, and more on how i will break down a 4 man defence, i will succeed!

[borthwc]

I've developed my own take on his 3-3-1-3. Its basically a high pressing game, with the middle CB being a ball playing midfielder retrained (ie Javi Martinez) and the two wing backs being offensive to the extreme. I also use a target man to head (Llorente) and its got me top 3 with Athletic.

I'm currently testing it with Kilmarnock and it got me to 4th in the SPL which is no mean feat considering they are absolutely toothless.

See what you guys think, and tweak if you wish:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20920201/3-3-1-3+%28Athletic%2C+Aug+2011%29.tac

[Los_Culés]

well i won't! determined to get a couple of back 3 tactics to work against all formations. if i focus not so much on what i have to do to stop them, and more on how i will break down a 4 man defence, i will succeed!

Just bear in mind that playing with three central defenders against one central striker is really useless. So you should at least give one of your central defenders some attacking duties.