English Premier Division Data discussion

Kaita Hasegawa (2000063018) has left Everton and joined Man Utd as a first team performance analyst at some point this month. 

8 minutes ago, metal_guitarist said:

Kaita Hasegawa (2000063018) has left Everton and joined Man Utd as a first team performance analyst at some point this month. 

Thanks @metal_guitarist!

1 hour ago, code-t said:

So it’s six consecutive seasons of 80%+ (upwards of the 96th percentile) and then one 14 game period where it’s lower, at 60%. So either we go for the extremely large sample size or the small sample size.

I think his best form has come this season but maybe he’s had one or two bad games in terms of dribbling? I don’t know. Either way his stats are amazing. 

Across all competitions in the past year it’s at 77.4%, the 96th percentile.

Even at this unusually low completion of 60% in the premier league this season that still puts him in the 80th percentile:


 

I’d also argue that he’s being asked to do much more by him self since we moved to a 4-3-3. He’s a single pivot and invites lots of pressure. By and large he deals with it extremely well. 
 

Anyway, even his historic worst season (in a small sample size of 14) puts him as one of the best dribblers. At the very least one of the best dribblers in the squad, compared with our other midfielders. But he’s rated as one of the worst. I’d also argue that his previous six incredible seasons shouldn’t be ignored.
 

By comparison Odegaard has a completion of 58.2% across all comps this past year.

I think you're ignoring a lot of context that dribbling higher up the pitch, in more compressed areas, against dedicated defenders is harder than dribbling in the middle of the park and results in naturally lower success rates.

In general, more central players can and should have higher dribble success rates than their attacking counterparts. The risks for losing the ball is much higher for example when being played as a "single pivot". And they should only be dribbling in generally winable situations. Attacking players will usually have multiple takeons without a success. That's just how the game works.

So losing the ball 40% of the time you dribble in the central midfield situation doesn't strike me as "amazing".
For example, two players I know well:

Hojbjerg - 70% dribble success rate.
Bentancur - 66.7% dribble success rate.

Which of these do you regard as "amazing" dribblers?

Maybe Emerson Royal?

Odegaard clearly stands out for this attribute based on his play this season. Partey doesn't. Being in the top 20% of all midfielders doesn't make you elite. It makes you a PL level dribbler.

Edited November 18, 2022 by The_Batmantis

6 hours ago, code-t said:

It’s weird to just take his stats from this season, the one with the smallest sample size, and the one which is most unrepresentative of his career total.

The game comes out every year. It attempts to rate players in their attributes based on how they are playing now to create the most accurate simulation of their performance. So it's not really that weird to look at how he's playing now when discussing his attributes, especially if we are discussing increasing an attribute by multiple points as a mid-season update.

So far this season he's dribbling less and doing it less successfully. That's just a fact.

Quote

>But Partey attempts audacious things. All the quotes I’ve listed aren’t talking about a conservative, safe player.

That's more about "flair" than dribbling. I do agree he should have a healthy flair rating. I'd say 14.

I get that you're an Arsenal fan and want Partey to be better in the game. But I don't see a case for him being as technical as Odegaard in anything you posted. Instead of just comparing him to two other Arsenal players, who play in different roles, I'd suggest looking at his data and comparing him to other players who you think are comparable and who play in similar roles on other teams. Then you can get a better idea of how he should be rated.

Edited November 19, 2022 by The_Batmantis

Continuing my Spurs Mid-Season review. I'm now going to highlight some specific attributes or PPMs that I think are well wide of the mark for individual players.

I'll start with a weird one. Lucas Moura. He's one of Spurs shortest players, but any Spurs fan knows his jumping ability is insane.
At launch, he's rated with a "Jumping Reach" of 11 and I think that needs to be greatly increased.

His goal vs. Man City: (4:45) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxmZuJBB2HQ

His goal vs. Palace (0:50) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49I6QqF_z3A

And this moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49I6QqF_z3A

The number of headers he wins is actually incredible for someone his height.
He

Can

Jump

 

Next I want to talk about a strange rating for Ryan Sessegnon. Currently he's rated a "8" in strength.

This is far too low based on his play and it puts him, unfairly, in the same category as stick figure Bryan Gil.

Sess is a capable defender who uses his body well to both keep and win the ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOzQd-UxrDE

I would actually rate two of his best physical attributes as balance and strength. Both could easily be 14s. (but not a great jumper)
I would however drop his "flair" from 14 down considerably, probably somewhere in the 10-11 range. His prime weakness as a wingback is taking safe options, and not being aggressive and unpredictable taking his man on with the ball. He's not one for trying tricks or skills moves. Spurs fans are still hoping he finds some of the form he used to show for Fulham in driving the ball forward, but that's not something he's particularly great at currently.

Moving to Spurs other LWB Ivan Peresic, He's currently underrated in terms of crossing at "13"
https://twitter.com/WhoScored/status/1573621514796089345

https://i.imgur.com/Yb1epmz.jpeg

He's quite simply the best crosser on the left in the league right now.
However, his pace is not what is used to be at all. He's generally beating his man with feints instead of the speed he used to have.
Crossing to 15-16 and pace to 13-14 would be more accurate IMHO. I think his finishing could also be ticked down a point or two based on some missed chances this season and sitting at zero goals for the season.

Now I move to Christian Romero. I think there are a few parts of his game currently missing from his attributes and style in FM.
He loves going past a man and going on adventures forward (example) Right now his dribbling and flair are "8". I don't know who thinks Ben Davies and Sanchez are better at dribbling but it's just not accurate.

You can see in a lot of these highlights how far forward he actually is. He could probably use a PPM to reflect this. Not dissimilar from players like Vertonghen or Rudiger who love to venture forward and support the attack well above the defensive line. You can also see him calm on the ball, and finding a wide range of passes.

Romero should also definitely have the PPM "winds up opponents". He's a bastard on the pitch.

Right now, he's also one of the best buildup players in the league.
I think overall his flair, dribbling, and passing could all use a significant bump. Right now, he's sorely missed whenever he's injured and I do think that's something that could be added to his profile, as right now in-game he's not regarded as a higher injury risk player, but he does have a long history of injuries and missing matches from them. But regardless, Romero should be starting the game with a higher CA than Dier. Every Spurs fan would agree he's our best defender.

Speaking of Eric Dier, he's not "either" footed. You could say his left foot is fairly strong, but he clearly prefers his right with passing, dribbling, shooting, and crossing. I honestly can't think of a reason why the game has him listed as "either" footed.

Again, happy to discuss or dive into the data on any of these points.

Edited November 19, 2022 by The_Batmantis

3 hours ago, The_Batmantis said:

Continuing my Spurs Mid-Season review. I'm now going to highlight some specific attributes or PPMs that I think are well wide of the mark for individual players.

I'll start with a weird one. Lucas Moura. He's one of Spurs shortest players, but any Spurs fan knows his jumping ability is insane.
At launch, he's rated with a "Jumping Reach" of 11 and I think that needs to be greatly increased.

 

Just to pick up on a commonly misunderstood attribute - jumping reach. It's relative to each player's height rather than a rating on how good he is at jumping, so he'll always be limited in how high he gets by his relatively low starting height. To put it another way a 20 jumping reach would mean any player of any height could reach the maximum height the game allows humans to jump to, say 8 foot for arguments sake, with lower scores being lower maximum heights (I don't know the exact figures for each attribute, sorry).

His height is given as 1.72m and 11 is actually a very high jumping reach for his height, in fact higher than previous research guidelines would allow for this attribute which would have given him a maximum of 9 as per the attached chart which I still use as a template for 'my' players at Brentford.

1 hour ago, Brentford Alan said:

Just to pick up on a commonly misunderstood attribute - jumping reach. It's relative to each player's height rather than a rating on how good he is at jumping, so he'll always be limited in how high he gets by his relatively low starting height. To put it another way a 20 jumping reach would mean any player of any height could reach the maximum height the game allows humans to jump to, say 8 foot for arguments sake, with lower scores being lower maximum heights (I don't know the exact figures for each attribute, sorry).

His height is given as 1.72m and 11 is actually a very high jumping reach for his height, in fact higher than previous research guidelines would allow for this attribute which would have given him a maximum of 9 as per the attached chart which I still use as a template for 'my' players at Brentford.

Thanks for the info @Brentford Alan. But I'm still not fully understanding you. He outjumps players who have a "jumping reach" of 12, 13, 14 etc. We have repeated visual evidence of it.

Therefore, shouldn't his jumping reach be higher than 11?
End of the day, his height doesn't really enter into it. Its about how high he can jump. And he's incredible at it.

If you want to talk about height, most sources put him at  about 172cm.
Many elite athletes can make static vertical jumps of 70cm+ : https://nrpt.co.uk/training/tests/power/sergeant.htm

Do that math and it's not unusual how he can elevate above even some CBs.

2 hours ago, code-t said:

Also, if you’d like me to compare similar players, here are the last three league seasons combined:

I wonder how their in game stats compare. First touch, flair, dribbling and technique. 

At game start

Partey:
FT=14, Flair=11, Drib=12, Tech=13

Rodri:
FT=15, Flair=9, Drib=13, Tech=14

Fabinho:
FT=16, Flair=11, Drib=13, Tech=15

Frenkie:
FT=17, Flair=15, Drib=16, Tech=16

McTominay:
FT=13, Flair=6, Drib=12, Tech=13

Hojbjerg:
FT=14, Flair=11, Drib=11, Tech=14

Seems like Partey is pretty much in line with those peers. You could argue about 1 point here, or one point there, but it's marginal at best. It's not like it's completely out of line with the player he is. And, that doesn't account for other attributes that matter such as strength, acceleration, composure, decisions, etc.

1 hour ago, The_Batmantis said:

Thanks for the info @Brentford Alan. But I'm still not fully understanding you. He outjumps players who have a "jumping reach" of 12, 13, 14 etc. We have repeated visual evidence of it.

Therefore, shouldn't his jumping reach be higher than 11?
End of the day, his height doesn't really enter into it. Its about how high he can jump. And he's incredible at it.

If you want to talk about height, most sources put him at  about 172cm.
Many elite athletes can make static vertical jumps of 70cm+ : https://nrpt.co.uk/training/tests/power/sergeant.htm

Do that math and it's not unusual how he can elevate above even some CBs.

 

from our research guidelines for the jumping reach attribute;

 

when considering his jumping ability, it makes sense to take into account the player's height.

For example, a player of 200+cm will still possess a high reach even if he is a poor jumper, and a player who measures in at 170cm will struggle to compete at the same height due to the 30cm difference in height between the two.

 

Please note that some players may be over rated in certain attributes and require a decrease.

29 minutes ago, Brentford Alan said:

 

from our research guidelines for the jumping reach attribute;

 

when considering his jumping ability, it makes sense to take into account the player's height.

For example, a player of 200+cm will still possess a high reach even if he is a poor jumper, and a player who measures in at 170cm will struggle to compete at the same height due to the 30cm difference in height between the two.

 

Please note that some players may be over rated in certain attributes and require a decrease.

I think we need to realize that this sentence needs a small edit.

>For example, a player of 200+cm will still possess a high reach even if he is a poor jumper, and a player who measures in at 170cm will usually struggle to compete at the same height due to the 30cm difference in height between the two.

But, some players are unusual. I think Lucas is an unusual player because his jumping ability is exceptional.

Edited November 19, 2022 by The_Batmantis

Aston Villa

Aaron Calvin (2000065553) joined as a Scout in Oct 2022 - Currently at Middlesbrough in the Db

https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaron-calvin-816123186/

Axel Tuanzebe’s injury should be a back injury and both his and Brandon Williams’ injury end dates should be changed to reflect their expected return to training around 7th December. I did see a mention somewhere that Williams’ injury was also a back injury but can’t find the source again to corroborate.

Teden Mengi was absent with a hamstring injury 7/4/22 until 8/10/22.

Di’Shon Bernard also got injured at the start of pre-season and was out until 31/10/22 with an unspecified injury. 

11 hours ago, metal_guitarist said:

Axel Tuanzebe’s injury should be a back injury and both his and Brandon Williams’ injury end dates should be changed to reflect their expected return to training around 7th December. I did see a mention somewhere that Williams’ injury was also a back injury but can’t find the source again to corroborate.

Teden Mengi was absent with a hamstring injury 7/4/22 until 8/10/22.

Di’Shon Bernard also got injured at the start of pre-season and was out until 31/10/22 with an unspecified injury. 

Done the latter two, will wait and see with Tuanzebe and Williams - with no update due til Feb/March (presumably) can afford to wait and see exactly when it looks like they return.

Lewis Koumas (16 y/o Liverpool U18's player) isn't listed as being eligible for Wales despite his father (Jason Koumas) being Welsh.  

4 hours ago, jbutton said:

Lewis Koumas (16 y/o Liverpool U18's player) isn't listed as being eligible for Wales despite his father (Jason Koumas) being Welsh.  

It does. It appears as his 2nd nation in the DB.

However I have him declared for England (which I need to double check) which is probably where the error appears

Edited December 3, 2022 by diddydaddydoddy

1 hour ago, diddydaddydoddy said:

It does. It appears as his 2nd nation in the DB.

However I have him declared for England (which I need to double check) which is probably where the error appears

That might be it, I think it must be set as declared at games start because I couldn't ask him to represent Wales at the start and his second nationality doesn't appear in his information screen for me in game.

On 03/12/2022 at 09:01, diddydaddydoddy said:

It does. It appears as his 2nd nation in the DB.

However I have him declared for England (which I need to double check) which is probably where the error appears

I think he’s eligible for Cyprus as well

8 hours ago, frosty said:

I think he’s eligible for Cyprus as well

Didn’t know that, have you got any evidence of that at all?

1 hour ago, diddydaddydoddy said:

Didn’t know that, have you got any evidence of that at all?

His dad is down with Cyprus as 3rd nationality on the ordb, google indicates this is through his dad being from there

Edited December 7, 2022 by frosty

2 minutes ago, frosty said:

His dad is down with Cyprus as 3rd nationality on the ordb, google indicates this is through his dad being from there

Well spotted. Thank you

@code-t would you agree these attributes? 

Southampton

Currently have two First Team Assistant Managers in the Db - Ruben Selles (58058727) & Chris Cohen (5123003)

The club site calls Cohen a 'First Team Coach' https://www.southamptonfc.com/first-team/chris-cohen

Ruben Selles is called 'First Team Lead Coach' https://www.southamptonfc.com/first-team/ruben-selles

I would suggest demoting Cohen down to just first team coach rather than Assistant Manager to reflect Ruben Selles 'Lead' Position

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by tv_capper

Southampton

I believe the following staff are currently missing from the Db

Name - Suggested Role - Verification

Terry Moore - U18 Assistant Manager - Currently vacant role in Db https://www.linkedin.com/in/terry-moore-2338523b/

Andy Marks - U21 Coach (works with players up to age 23) https://www.linkedin.com/in/andy-marks-5798923b/

Luke Thomas - 1st Team Physio https://www.linkedin.com/in/physioluke/

Jonathan O'Donoghue - U18 Physio https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-o-donoghue-615a79236/

Ian Torrance - Scout - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ian-torrance-29a41536/

Matthew Powell - U18 Performance Analyst - https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-powell-8069488b/

 

Southampton also have an 'International Academy Partner' called Thane City FC in India who don't appear to be in the DB currently

Southampton are sending Coaches to India to help train yougsters and similarly some of their coaches have come over to visit the Southampton Academy

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6999352630145613825/ https://www.linkedin.com/posts/thanecityfc_thanecityfc-southamptonfc-activity-6968933849951010816-XRBG/

Couple of Utd squad numbers:

61. Mateo Mejia

95. Elyh Harrison

Correct me if I'm wrong @Dan Ormsby

Player traits I feel are missing for certain players

Kieran Tierney- Gets forward whenever possible

Thomas Partey and William Saliba- Tries to play way out of trouble

Takehiro Tomiyasu, Benjamin White and Gabriel - Tries long range passes

Albert Sambi Lokonga- Comes deep to get ball

Gabriel Jesus- Moves into channels